Making sacrifices for Lent

jimd2

Anyone else here encourage their children to give up something, whatever small, for lent?

94Conor

Why would an atheist or agnostic encourage their children participate in a Christian custom? :S

jimd2

94Conor wrote: »

Why would an atheist or agnostic encourage their children participate in a Christian custom? :S

Well many participate in Christmas festivities and also Easter so it's not totally without precedent.

And giving up things during lent teaches kids to make sacrifices which can't be a bad thing whether you are Christian or not.

bnt

There's been plenty of discussion here, over the years, about the Pagan origins of Christmas (Winter Solstice) and Easter (festival of Ēostre), and so on. I don't remember the Bible saying anything about chicks, eggs and bunnies! You can't say the same about Lent, though - AFAIK it's explicitly Judeo-Christian in origin.

Zombrex

I don't have children, but wouldn't it be better to teach them the value of general moderation, self restrain and a healthy life style, rather than the notion of giving something up completely for an arbitrary time, which normally results in pigging out before and after the fasting?

Hotblack Desiato

Piss-poor troll attempt jmd2, sorry but you should have known this

Everyone knows that the so-called Xtian festivals are all stolen from pagan/solar worshippers.

Every year until now, I've seen between 2 and 4 ash-wearers on this day. Today I have seen zero. I conclude the Roman Catholic Church is dead. Rejoice all who have suffered at her hands.

endacl

I'm giving up responding to these threads. No great sacrifice, but an exercise in self-control.

jimd2

ninja900 wrote: »

Piss-poor troll attempt jmd2, sorry but you should have known this

Everyone knows that the so-called Xtian festivals are all stolen from pagan/solar worshippers.

Every year until now, I've seen between 2 and 4 ash-wearers on this day. Today I have seen zero. I conclude the Roman Catholic Church is dead. Rejoice all who have suffered at her hands.

I saw 3, not including me I might add. I think the ash thing is a bit ridiculous myself. However that is beside the point.
I do think that encouraging kids to give up things thy like for Lent is a good thing and I suspect that quite a few on this forum would agree but are reluctant to admit it.

jimd2

endacl wrote: »

I'm giving up responding to these threads. No great sacrifice, but an exercise in self-control.

So you have already broken this vow.

endacl

jimd2 wrote: »

So you have already broken this vow.

I was never one for resolutions. Ah well. Back to the trenches...

Lingua Franca

I have children. They have no idea what lent is.

I teach them to be decent people all year round.

iguana

Last year on Ash Wednesday I went to see Jay and Silent Bob Get Old. Apparently Jay had been walking around Dublin all day wondering the hell so many Irish people had dirty faces.

StillWaters

bnt wrote: »

There's been plenty of discussion here, over the years, about the Pagan origins of Christmas (Winter Solstice) and Easter (festival of Ēostre), and so on. I don't remember the Bible saying anything about chicks, eggs and bunnies! You can't say the same about Lent, though - AFAIK it's explicitly Judeo-Christian in origin.

I'm not sure. It is in a lean time, at planting, the very last of the store used to plant. It would have been a time of hunger and sacrifice for our ancestors. I would be surprised if there wasn't a pagan origin.

challengemaster

iguana wrote: »

Last year on Ash Wednesday I went to see Jay and Silent Bob Get Old. Apparently Jay had been walking around Dublin all day wondering the hell so many Irish people had dirty faces.

I did one better. Probably like most here, I don't even know when these days are until it gets mentioned to me because they're not significant to me.


Last year however, I was walking around tesco with the girlfriend on ash weds (unknown to me). Spotted someone walking by and the next words out of my mouth to her were "Look at that bollocks with a tattoo of a cross on his head! What an eejit"

Lets just say she spent the next 5 minutes laughing

Peregrinus

StillWaters wrote: »

I'm not sure. It is in a lean time, at planting, the very last of the store used to plant. It would have been a time of hunger and sacrifice for our ancestors. I would be surprised if there wasn't a pagan origin.

Lots of cultures have formalised ascetic practices of one kind or another, and many of them are pre-Christian.

I'm not sure, though, that Lent is a traceable inheritance from one of these. Rather, I suspect asceticism is something that different cultures and societies can come to independently. The core idea, I think, is that dependence is weakness, and you make yourself stronger by being less dependent on external things, over whose continued supply you may have little or no control. You can spiritualise this idea - and most societies probably have done - but equally you can see it in purely material terms. For example athletes may see abstinance from rich food, alchohol or sex as not merely physical preparation for competition, but mental preparation also. There's a movement which seeks to minimise consumption as part of an ethical response to consumerist capitalism. Hunger strikers practice ascetecism to call attention to perceived injustice. And so forth.

So, can atheists adopt ascetic practices, and see them as beneficial, virtuous, etc? Of course. But I see no reason why they would adopt Lenten practices in particular, and obvious reasons why they would be reluctant to. (Unless they're fans of the "let's all be miserable together" approach to life.)

jimd2

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I have children. They have no idea what lent is.

I teach them to be decent people all year round.

I am sure that you do.

But do you teach them to give up on things that they like and are used to and to give at least some of the money saved to charity or those less fortunate?

From the responses so far it seems that no one on this forum have encouraged this in their children. I am sure children are being taught to be good in other ways but it was just this particular tradition that I was interested in.

Perhaps some of you should consider doing this. It doesn't have to be Lent of course and the money doesn't have to go to Trocaire. The main point is the message it gives to the children and the money raised for those less well off.

eviltwin

In our family we talk about Lent and what it means. Its hard to avoid it, its become almost a cultural thing and despite being an open atheist I was asked about a dozen times what I am giving up.

Personally I don't think its that much different to a New Years Resolution, lots of people trying to make positive changes to themselves as per a tradition. I certainly wouldn't encourage my kids to give up something but if they made that decision themselves spurred on by others and it was based on a desire to do something good or healthy I would encourage them completely.

Penn

jimd2 wrote: »

Well many participate in Christmas festivities and also Easter so it's not totally without precedent.

Yes, like those great Christian traditions of Santa giving presents to children, or the Easter Bunny giving chocolate eggs to children.

Easter and Christmas festivities are far more cultural than religious, because they are non-Christian festivities which are associated with a Christian occasion. Lent is more religious than cultural, because it's tied in to a religious ideal with no real festivities behind it (ie. No reason a non-Christian would celebrate it, as Christmas and Easter brings joy whereas Lent brings sacrifice)

drumslate

I don't believe in anything, but for some reason I always give up something

Hotblack Desiato

jimd2 wrote: »

But do you teach them to give up on things that they like and are used to and to give at least some of the money saved to charity or those less fortunate?

So charity is dogmatically a good thing? No.

Too often it breeds dependence in the recipients and/or they are forced to degrade themselves to accept it. Far too often it is abused to aggrandise and enrich the founders and employees.

Perhaps some of you should consider doing this. It doesn't have to be Lent of course and the money doesn't have to go to Trocaire. The main point is the message it gives to the children and the money raised for those less well off.

I give a lot of money to the less well off every week and I have no choice in the matter.

Dades

jimd2 wrote: »

But do you teach them to give up on things that they like and are used to and to give at least some of the money saved to charity or those less fortunate?

From the responses so far it seems that no one on this forum have encouraged this in their children. I am sure children are being taught to be good in other ways but it was just this particular tradition that I was interested in.

I don't think you can make those assumptions from the responses to your OP. You specifically asked within the context of Lent, which most here hold no significance to. How people bring their kids up and in what way they teach them to be grateful for what they have, or to encourage altruism requires a much wider question.

My kids are 4 and 2 so I leave the life-lessons at encouraging them to share their smarties.

lazygal

I don't believe in making children make 'sacrifices' or otherwise deny themselves because of something I'm imposing on them. I want my children to be happy, secure and willing to share, but I don't see self denial as a desirable trait in children. If adults want to cut back on what's not good for them, that's up to them, but I don't like that idea for my children. I'd like to think they'll lead good, happy, healthy lives every day, not just for a defined period of the year determined by the catholic church.

I have a bit of a problem with the concept of 'charity' on an idealogical level. We have a couple of charities we donate too, but I'm not happy that a school would be infiltrated by a specific charity year after year, regardless of its worth or work. Like another poster said, I find the dependence created by the charity/volunteering industry quite difficult to get involved with.

keane2097

lazygal wrote: »

I don't believe in making children make 'sacrifices' or otherwise deny themselves because of something I'm imposing on them. I want my children to be happy, secure and willing to share, but I don't see self denial as a desirable trait in children. If adults want to cut back on what's not good for them, that's up to them, but I don't like that idea for my children. I'd like to think they'll lead good, happy, healthy lives every day, not just for a defined period of the year determined by the catholic church.

QFT

Can't believe it took someone so long to say this.

jank

It's good now and again to evaluate your life and see if you can improve on this or that. Giving up the odd vice for a period of time in my opinion is healthy so long of course it's done by ones own free will. It's funny how we become creatures of habit. Shaking things up is always interesting. As for kids, well beyond the modern day parenting philosophy that we must indulge kids with their every wants and needs I think reminding them of the fact that many things they enjoy in life is not a forgone conclusion of modern living. Cutting down on sweets or Xbox any time of the year may be viewed on positively. Might shift the focus of their attention to something more positive in the short term.

yellowlabrador

If you have chickens, it's a good idea to not eat eggs. The uneaten eggs will accumulate, the hen will get broody and voila! little fluffy chicks at easter..
We're so used to arranging ang taking over nature so this could be letting nature do it's thing so that chickens can have their offspring when they are supposed to.
My motto is, a little of what you fancy won't do you no harm. It's excess that is bad.

robindch

ninja900 wrote: »

Every year until now, I've seen between 2 and 4 ash-wearers on this day. Today I have seen zero.

Gosh, was that yesterday? I forgot completely. Didn't see a single ashy splodge all day long.

Meanwhile, here's Sky News:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLeJMoS-_Jo

Sierra 117

I saw a fair few people with ash on their foreheads. They were all elderly people mind. I didn't see any young people with ashes.

keane2097

Is there any reasoning for why, for a normal kid - i.e. nutritionally healthy, etc - the idea giving up sweets for example for a defined period of time is seen as something that will aid their development?

A lot of people seem to throw out the notion but I'm missing a step in the logic of it, it's not self-evident as it seems to be for some people to me anyway.

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Gosh, was that yesterday? I forgot completely. Didn't see a single ashy splodge all day long.

Likewise. Completely passed me by until today. Didn't see a single dash of ash.

Saw plenty of twats who still put down catholic on the census, no doubt.

Lingua Franca

jimd2 wrote: »

I am sure that you do.

But do you teach them to give up on things that they like and are used to and to give at least some of the money saved to charity or those less fortunate?

Yes.

From the responses so far it seems that no one on this forum have encouraged this in their children. I am sure children are being taught to be good in other ways but it was just this particular tradition that I was interested in.

Why does it seem like that? Because we don't do Lent? Guess what, we don't do Ramadan or Purim either.

Perhaps some of you should consider doing this. It doesn't have to be Lent of course and the money doesn't have to go to Trocaire. The main point is the message it gives to the children and the money raised for those less well off.

Perhaps you shouldn't be telling people how to raise their children.

Hotblack Desiato

LOL, Kay Burley really is thick!

ballsymchugh

yellowlabrador wrote: »

If you have chickens, it's a good idea to not eat eggs. The uneaten eggs will accumulate, the hen will get broody and voila! little fluffy chicks at easter..
We're so used to arranging ang taking over nature so this could be letting nature do it's thing so that chickens can have their offspring when they are supposed to.
My motto is, a little of what you fancy won't do you no harm. It's excess that is bad.

as for easter eggs, old tradition was not to eat eggs during lent, so they were used up before ash wednesday. the best way to do that was to make pancakes.

Dades

ninja900 wrote: »

LOL, Kay Burley really is thick!

And a really bad average catholic. :pac:

Bannasidhe

jimd2 wrote: »

I am sure that you do.

But do you teach them to give up on things that they like and are used to and to give at least some of the money saved to charity or those less fortunate?

From the responses so far it seems that no one on this forum have encouraged this in their children. I am sure children are being taught to be good in other ways but it was just this particular tradition that I was interested in.

Perhaps some of you should consider doing this. It doesn't have to be Lent of course and the money doesn't have to go to Trocaire. The main point is the message it gives to the children and the money raised for those less well off.

Just catching up on this thread now and I must say I found this post a not only a bit 'preachy' but also guilty of making some huge assumptions.

I have just dropped 2 bags of clothes and unplayed with toys to the VdP.

Last Saturday my grandkids went through all of their stuff and filled those bags themselves (then I unpacked them and refilled them properly). It was their decision as 6 year old Hermione told me very seriously that there are children who don't even have warm clothes and they have so many they can't wear them all so they should share.

My son when he was young would do the same - some lucky kid got their hands on a serious amount of lego in 1997.

They didn't do this out of any 'giving things up for Lent' BS - they don't even know what Lent is.
They did it because it is the right thing to do.

Religion has nothing to do with what is right.

Am I the only one who is becoming annoyed at these 'do atheists contribute to charity?'/'do atheists help their fellow human beings?' threads?

Yes. We do.

And not because we have been instructed to or in hope of earning salvation brownie points...:mad:

Now, I must get ready for the animal rescue fundraiser I am going to later...am bringing my rescue dogs - they are the star attractions tonight.

Pushtrak

jimd2 wrote: »

Anyone else here encourage their children to give up something, whatever small, for lent?

This is the same logic as those religious people tell atheists who eat meat on good friday that they are doing something wrong. I don't see the logic of either.

Zombrex wrote: »

I don't have children, but wouldn't it be better to teach them the value of general moderation, self restrain and a healthy life style, rather than the notion of giving something up completely for an arbitrary time, which normally results in pigging out before and after the fasting?

Agreed. I never liked the idea of New Years Resolutions either. If a person needs to make a change, then make it or don't. Don't hold off until the new year arbitrarily, as you say. Though, of course, that example isn't religious, but the principle applies.

jimd2 wrote: »

I saw 3, not including me I might add. I think the ash thing is a bit ridiculous myself. However that is beside the point.

Religion: Making people do things even they find ridiculous.

Edward Tarte made a video on Lent, I suppose it is appropriate to the thread.

Tar.Aldarion

I ate pancakes on Monday and am not doing lent, you can call me James Dean.

endacl

ninja900 wrote: »

LOL, Kay Burley really is thick!

Or just unaware of silly religious traditions? Might be nice to live in a world where her reaction was the standard reaction.

94Conor

endacl wrote: »

Or just unaware of silly religious traditions? Might be nice to live in a world where her reaction was the standard reaction.

Where ignorance is the standard reaction? :S Not participating in customs is one thing, but being unaware of their existence (especially when she calls herself a catholic) is just ignorant and stupid.

Gbear

94Conor wrote: »

Where ignorance is the standard reaction? :S Not participating in customs is one thing, but being unaware of their existence (especially when she calls herself a catholic) is just ignorant and stupid.

Ignorance simply means not knowing. In this instance it can't be used as an insult as there's no reason as to why she should really know about people smudging ash on themselves.
Silly religious traditions deserve to be utterly obscure.

94Conor

Gbear wrote: »

Ignorance simply means not knowing. In this instance it can't be used as an insult as there's no reason as to why she should really know about people smudging ash on themselves.
Silly religious traditions deserve to be utterly obscure.

She calls herself a catholic in the video.

Rob Humanoid

jimd2 wrote: »

And giving up things during lent teaches kids to make sacrifices which can't be a bad thing whether you are Christian or not.

I'd rather teach my kids value and sacrifice in practical terms, and with real life examples. As opposed to some 'quasi spiritual' guide that doesn't even exist.

smokingman

I'm not raising my three boys to be quitters or your typical catholic entitlement hoares

jimd2

smokingman wrote: »

I'm not raising my three boys to be quitters or your typical catholic entitlement hoares

Not sure what you mean by "catholic entitlement hoares"

jimd2

Rob Humanoid wrote: »

I'd rather teach my kids value and sacrifice in practical terms, and with real life examples. As opposed to some 'quasi spiritual' guide that doesn't even exist.

I think that is fair enough.

iguana

Gbear wrote: »

Ignorance simply means not knowing. In this instance it can't be used as an insult as there's no reason as to why she should really know about people smudging ash on themselves.
Silly religious traditions deserve to be utterly obscure.

I wouldn't call her an idiot for not knowing about Ash Wednesday but I would call her an idiot for paying zero attention to Biden and the correspondent and instead of responding to her colleague about the issue being discussed she headed off on a non sequitur about the mark on his forehead. Going so far as to concoct a fantasy, live on the air, about how he may have had an accident while sledding on a tray! A non-idiot would have switched off their mike and asked a researcher to find out what was wrong with his forehead.

jimd2

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Just catching up on this thread now and I must say I found this post a not only a bit 'preachy' but also guilty of making some huge assumptions.

I have just dropped 2 bags of clothes and unplayed with toys to the VdP.

Last Saturday my grandkids went through all of their stuff and filled those bags themselves (then I unpacked them and refilled them properly). It was their decision as 6 year old Hermione told me very seriously that there are children who don't even have warm clothes and they have so many they can't wear them all so they should share.

My son when he was young would do the same - some lucky kid got their hands on a serious amount of lego in 1997.

They didn't do this out of any 'giving things up for Lent' BS - they don't even know what Lent is.
They did it because it is the right thing to do.

Religion has nothing to do with what is right.

Am I the only one who is becoming annoyed at these 'do atheists contribute to charity?'/'do atheists help their fellow human beings?' threads?

Yes. We do.

And not because we have been instructed to or in hope of earning salvation brownie points...:mad:

Now, I must get ready for the animal rescue fundraiser I am going to later...am bringing my rescue dogs - they are the star attractions tonight.

Do you want me to go around and give you a medal?

The charity work you do or dont do has nothing to do with this thread. Myself, I have done various types of charity work, school collections, sports training etc etc over the last 15-20 years. However that has no connection with religion at all.

Anyone I know or have known that give things up for lent do not do it to earn "salvation brownie points" as you put it. Perhaps that is your motivation and your reasoning for broadcasting your own charity work here.;)

jimd2

jimd2 wrote: »

But do you teach them to give up on things that they like and are used to and to give at least some of the money saved to charity or those less fortunate?

Perhaps some of you should consider doing this. It doesn't have to be Lent of course and the money doesn't have to go to Trocaire. The main point is the message it gives to the children and the money raised for those less well off.

jimd2 wrote: »

Do you want me to go around and give you a medal. The charity work you do or dont do has nothing to do with this thread.

However that has no connection with religion at all.

Make up your mind

jimd2

bluewolf wrote: »

Make up your mind

What I am saying is that normal run of the mill charity work, school associations, soccer clubs and help and fundraising with these is not the point of this thread.

Of course atheists support and get involved in these as much as people that get involved in religuous activities.

I was asking about parents etc encouraging kids to give up things for lent and giving money etc saved by these little sacrifices to charities including the poor in Africa. In my mind the distinction is clear.

Now, is that clear to you?

You said it doesn't have to be lent or religious as long as kids get the message about charity.
You asked about kids giving to charity.

Banna gave you an example of non religious one-off of kids giving to charity.

You then gave a sarky reply.

So no, it's pretty unclear what you're after.

jimd2

bluewolf wrote: »

You said it doesn't have to be lent or religious as long as kids get the message about charity.
You asked about kids giving to charity.

Banna gave you an example of non religious one-off of kids giving to charity.

You then gave a sarky reply.

So no, it's pretty unclear what you're after.

I dont think my reply was sarky, if it was I would apologise but I dont think it was.

I think I explained the difference between normal charity giving that many of us get involved in and the specific purpose of this thread which relates to giving up something you like for lent and then contributing whatever small savings from that to charity - thread title "Making sacrifices for Lent".

I am not sure what more I can write to get you to understand (unless that is you dont want to be seen here to understand me, it's probably cool to have a go at the guy with the alternative opinion).

Bannasidhe

jimd2 wrote: »

Do you want me to go around and give you a medal?

The charity work you do or dont do has nothing to do with this thread. Myself, I have done various types of charity work, school collections, sports training etc etc over the last 15-20 years. However that has no connection with religion at all.

Anyone I know or have known that give things up for lent do not do it to earn "salvation brownie points" as you put it. Perhaps that is your motivation and your reasoning for broadcasting your own charity work here.;)

My My, I appear to have touched a nerve.

You came in here preaching about the importance of teaching kids certain values as if we do not teach our children values -

No I don't want a medal - but for you to acknowledge you are guilty of making false assumptions would be the honourable thing to do.


Why exactly do you give things up for Lent if not because this is a tradition of your religion?

Why don't you give things up for 'May' or 'Summer'.