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Scottish independence: Scotland would be 'separate state'

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245

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    #32
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    AckwelFoley wrote: »
    They can afford to hold onto their currency. We cannot.

    They will prevail from the other side of this global economic crisis in better shape than we will.

    Most economies are heavily reliant on global trade...japan US Germany...

    Thanks for your reply.


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    #33
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I have no idea what that means.
    Why? Because you say so?


    No because they have before.


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    #34
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    AckwelFoley wrote: »
    "Whatever" isn't a great retort.
    "They refuse to be Europes slave" wasn't worthy of a great retort.
    AckwelFoley wrote: »
    No because they have before.
    I dare say the UK and Ireland have not been faced with this set of circumstances before, so past performance isn't giving you much to go on.


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    #35
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    Thomas_I wrote: »

    Quite right because it´s all possible if you hard enough believe in it.:)

    I´d like to know what exactly brings you to think that it would work? I´m not kidding, I just ask you because - except the republicans - it could be considered as an alternative to unify Ireland (in theory of course).
    I honestly believe it would be the only way this whole island could be at peace, you know that saying for a compromise all sides should be unhappy, a United ireland with an independent irish parliament ran from Dublin back within the UK. The Irish parliament would have more say in the English parliament than the English would have in the Irish parliament. Irelands dept to the UK would be wiped out and they could take advantage of the larger population and low interest rate to re structure their debt.
    If ireland can be the whiping boy of Europe then why would it fear an equal partner ship in the kingdom it helped forge?


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    #36
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    gallag wrote: »
    If ireland can be the whiping boy of Europe then why would it fear an equal partner ship in the kingdom it helped forge?
    When was Ireland ever an "equal partner" within the UK? Frame your answer in the context of Ireland having equal status to the other 26 states within the EU.


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    #37
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    gallag wrote: »
    I honestly believe it would be the only way this whole island could be at peace, you know that saying for a compromise all sides should be unhappy, a United ireland with an independent irish parliament ran from Dublin back within the UK. The Irish parliament would have more say in the English parliament than the English would have in the Irish parliament. Irelands dept to the UK would be wiped out and they could take advantage of the larger population and low interest rate to re structure their debt.
    If ireland can be the whiping boy of Europe then why would it fear an equal partner ship in the kingdom it helped forge?

    Ireland's economic model was always going to take a battering with a decline in the global economy. With the collapse and subsequent stagnation of global trade Ireland has done terribly and will continue to struggle, however with an upswing are well placed to take advantage of a recovery. What is often forgotten was the praise heaped upon this model in the not too distant past. can you guess which British political figure came out with these comments:

    a “shining ­example” of how to do business and urged the deregulation of Britain’s financial services to help us copy the success of the “Celtic Tiger”

    “simple and effective approach”

    “They have much to teach us, if only we are willing to learn.”


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    #38
    everdead.ie
    Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭everdead.ie


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I don’t know to be honest, but either way, Scotland can’t just decide that it’s theirs.
    Sigh.

    The union of England and Scotland essentially came about as a result of James IV marrying Margaret Tudor. Contrary to popular belief, England did not conquer Scotland.
    Essentially Scotland actually conquered England but it's best not to say that!

    On the oil the only way one would naturally divide the oil is by the current international model and the model with which Norway and the UK currently divide shared oil fields.

    This is done by dividing across the lines of sovereignty which I read would leave Scotland with approximately 90% of the UK's oil reserves.

    That would be the equivelant of around £9billion in royalties per annum.

    Enough supposedly to replace any help it gets from England and wales, however the oil fields are in decline meaning they would quickly need to raise money elsewhere starting in the next ten years to bridge the gap in declining royalties.


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    #39
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    gallag wrote: »
    I honestly believe it would be the only way this whole island could be at peace, you know that saying for a compromise all sides should be unhappy, a United ireland with an independent irish parliament ran from Dublin back within the UK. The Irish parliament would have more say in the English parliament than the English would have in the Irish parliament. Irelands dept to the UK would be wiped out and they could take advantage of the larger population and low interest rate to re structure their debt.
    If ireland can be the whiping boy of Europe then why would it fear an equal partner ship in the kingdom it helped forge?

    If I understand you correct in this, you´re speaking about something like a federation of Ireland and the UK. A "con-federation" would be rather thinkable, because there is no interest among the people in the RoI to get back into the UK. There isn´t even an interest to become a member of the Commonwealth of Nations again. That would be at least the first step you could probably sell to the public, but not an imidiate re-joining into the UK.


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    #40
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    I love the way that when something like this gets talked people always start chatting about re-joining the UK as if the UK would even entertain the idea! They don't want the North let alone the rest of Ireland!


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    #41
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    Procrastastudy wrote: »
    I love the way that when something like this gets talked people always start chatting about re-joining the UK as if the UK would even entertain the idea! They don't want the North let alone the rest of Ireland!

    I perfectly well know that, others like to keep their views.:)


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    #42
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    Of course we would want yous, it would be mutually beneficial, your corporate tax would go up and bp would take over exploring natural resources to of set the 20 odd billion deficit ireland would bring. Now lets group hug and sing your new national anthem.

    All together now... god save our....


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    #43
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    gallag wrote: »
    Of course we would want yous, it would be mutually beneficial, your corporate tax would go up and bp would take over exploring natural resources to of set the 20 odd billion deficit ireland would bring. Now lets group hug and sing your new national anthem.

    All together now... god save our....

    Isn´t it funny in some ways? You have your dream of Ireland re-uniting with the UK and cutting out the republicans, the republicans dreamin of a re-united Ireland without the unionists. Looks both as to be perfect in a parallel universe.

    Any opinion on that?:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21451740

    No decision has been made yet.


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    #44
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    Thomas_I wrote: »

    Isn´t it funny in some ways? You have your dream of Ireland re-uniting with the UK and cutting out the republicans, the republicans dreamin of a re-united Ireland without the unionists. Looks both as to be perfect in a parallel universe.

    Any opinion on that?:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21451740

    No decision has been made yet.
    If our neighbours ask us to turn a building green it should be no problem, it might be a bit tacky for buck palace, what about the tower of londen or the london eye etc? I would not be against the buck palace idea but its probably best to avoid anything political I.e if ireland were to reciprocate the jesture a union flag on the presidential building would be tacky compared to it being on a non political Dublin landmark.


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    #45
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    gallag wrote: »
    If our neighbours ask us to turn a building green it should be no problem, it might be a bit tacky for buck palace, what about the tower of londen or the london eye etc? I would not be against the buck palace idea but its probably best to avoid anything political I.e if ireland were to reciprocate the jesture a union flag on the presidential building would be tacky compared to it being on a non political Dublin landmark.

    I´m not joining these terms in my expression, I just think what´s the point they´re proposing this to HM anyway? I see no need for such an gesture to celebrate St Patricks Day with a green lighted Buckingham Palace. The Irish in London will celebrate anyway and I doubt that this would be that important to them. Really, what these people (the Royals) have to endure is sometimes beyond any reason. I´m just wondering what Prince Philipp would grumble about that:D

    Maybe they´ll agree to that for publicities sake.


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    #46
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Back to Scotland (the original point of the thread), the new 'Yes, Prime Minister' two nights ago outlined brilliantly where Scotland and its place in the UK lies.
    If you get a chance, watch. Was bang on.


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    #47
    Thomas_I
    Closed Accounts Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Thomas_I


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Back to Scotland (the original point of the thread), the new 'Yes, Prime Minister' two nights ago outlined brilliantly where Scotland and its place in the UK lies.
    If you get a chance, watch. Was bang on.

    I couldn´t find anything, just this:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21380288

    but I´ve already seen that. If you could help me with some hints it would be fine.


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    #48
    full_irish
    Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭full_irish


    everdead.ie wrote: »
    Essentially Scotland actually conquered England but it's best not to say that!

    Not quite, but I shall defer to the ever knowledgeable Esquire C.G.P. Grey to provide the explanation:



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    #49
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Thomas_I wrote: »

    Isn´t it funny in some ways? You have your dream of Ireland re-uniting with the UK and cutting out the republicans, the republicans dreamin of a re-united Ireland without the unionists. Looks both as to be perfect in a parallel universe.

    Any opinion on that?:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21451740

    No decision has been made yet.

    He's not putting pressure on anyone, but he has gone public so the Queen looks anti Irish if the Palace says no.


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    #50
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    If the Scots don't vote for independence, I would imagine they would have to stop singing Flower of Scotland. Because it would be quite laughable if they don't.


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    #51
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    If the Scots don't vote for independence, I would imagine they would have to stop singing Flower of Scotland. Because it would be quite laughable if they don't.
    Why? Proud scott and British, not mutually exclusive.


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    #52
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    gallag wrote: »
    Why? Proud scott and British, not mutually exclusive.

    *Scot. Predictive text?


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    #53
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    gallag wrote: »
    Why? Proud scott and British, not mutually exclusive.

    Check out the lyrics to the Flower of Scotland.

    Of course being an actual proud Scot and "British" is mutually exclusive- it would be like a battered wife being proud of her marriage. It would be plain silly.


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    #54
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    gallag wrote: »
    Why? Proud scott and British, not mutually exclusive.

    The extreme irony of a nation rejecting independence from the Crown, while continuing to sing The Flower of Scotland would not be lost on most people.


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    #55
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    SoulandForm wrote: »

    Check out the lyrics to the Flower of Scotland.

    Of course being an actual proud Scot and "British" is mutually exclusive- it would be like a battered wife being proud of her marriage. It would be plain silly.
    What rubbish, millions of proud British scots, why do you think so many are against independence?


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    #56
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    gallag wrote: »
    What rubbish, millions of proud British scots, why do you think so many are against independence?

    Because they have no pride and fear freedom, or because they are Roman Catholics with a sectarian fear suspicion of their Protestant neighbours (sound familiar?) ?


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    #57
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Because they have no pride and fear freedom, or because they are Roman Catholics with a sectarian fear suspicion of their Protestant neighbours (sound familiar?) ?
    How can a proud citizen of the United Kingdom be described as lacking pride? :confused: And that's not even mentioning the supposed lack of freedom in one of the most liberal countries in the world.


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    #58
    gallag
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭gallag


    SoulandForm wrote: »

    Because they have no pride and fear freedom, or because they are Roman Catholics with a sectarian fear suspicion of their Protestant neighbours (sound familiar?) ?
    Because they are British, they are the UK, they are the citizens, the prime ministers, every good thing about the UK and every bad. Its not us vs them, the Scottish are us and we are them.


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    #59
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Of course being an actual proud Scot and "British" is mutually exclusive- it would be like a battered wife being proud of her marriage. It would be plain silly.
    It would be if your analogy was in any way meaningful. Of course the fact is that Scotland has gained a lot from being in the union, hence the reluctance to leave.

    I spend a good deal of time in Glasgow, and pretty much every Scot I've ever met will quite happily describe themselves as British. Scottish first, maybe, but the two terms are certainly not mutually exclusive.


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    #60
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »

    The extreme irony of a nation rejecting independence from the Crown, while continuing to sing The Flower of Scotland would not be lost on most people.

    No one has suggested independence from the crown, the snp are not a republican party.


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    #61
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    SoulandForm wrote: »

    Because they have no pride and fear freedom, or because they are Roman Catholics with a sectarian fear suspicion of their Protestant neighbours (sound familiar?) ?

    What absolute rubbish. How will The average Scot have more freedom outside of the union?

    As for sectarian fear, you are really clutching at straws. Religion is not a factor in the debate.


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