Is it legal for Guards to drive on luas tracks

tjc28

Quick question stemming from seeing a Garda car driving at maybe 60km p/h the other day down the Luas tracks at Collins Barracks.
I regularly get the Luas here to work and I constantly see Garda cars driving up and down the Luas tracks. Presumably they're going to the court on Parkgate Street and coming from the Bridewell. Most don't be driving that fast but the other day I seen one absolutely bombing it down.
Is it legal for them to use the Luas tracks as a through road?

CharlieCroker

Short answer is yes.

Gardai are exempt from most of the road traffic act whilst on duty

Procrastastudy

tjc28 wrote: »

Quick question stemming from seeing a Garda car driving at maybe 60km p/h the other day down the Luas tracks at Collins Barracks.
I regularly get the Luas here to work and I constantly see Garda cars driving up and down the Luas tracks. Presumably they're going to the court on Parkgate Street and coming from the Bridewell. Most don't be driving that fast but the other day I seen one absolutely bombing it down.
Is it legal for them to use the Luas tracks as a through road?

Stop them and ask.

Corkbah

CharlieCroker wrote: »

Short answer is yes.

Gardai are exempt from most of the road traffic act whilst on duty

The ordinary person cannot decipher when a garda is "on duty" and when he/she is off-duty (ie. an unmarked car) .... (to the best of my knowledge they must abide by the traffic laws unless they are in an emergency situation....simply being on-duty is not a permission slip to abuse traffic laws)

OP if you have an issue with it report it to the local super and let them discuss the matter with the individual Gardai - they can check if they were en-route to an emergency or if they were abusing the traffic laws.

Turner

There is No difference between being on duty and an emergency situation.

Once they start their shift... They are on duty and exempt from certain laws.

There are other instances where they will be on duty but not working a shift.

Paulw

Corkbah wrote: »

The ordinary person cannot decipher when a garda is "on duty" and when he/she is off-duty (ie. an unmarked car) .... (to the best of my knowledge they must abide by the traffic laws unless they are in an emergency situation....simply being on-duty is not a permission slip to abuse traffic laws)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0044/sec0027.html

Blah, blah, blah ... parts of the Act do not apply to a driver of a fire brigade vehicle, an ambulance or the use by a member of the Garda Síochána of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member or a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána, where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.

I'm sure that section has been updated to cover the very latest version of the act.

Corkbah

Paulw wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0044/sec0027.html

Blah, blah, blah ... parts of the Act do not apply to a driver of a fire brigade vehicle, an ambulance or the use by a member of the Garda Síochána of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member or a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána, where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.

I'm sure that section has been updated to cover the very latest version of the act.

as with all Irish law ...ambigious ...it is unclear if it means (as earlier stated) once they are on duty they are allowed to do whatever....or .... if the law means something else.

for example... if a Garda is on patrol ...not on their way to any calls just maintaining a presence ...are they allowed travel along bus lanes/luas tracks/drive up a one-way street the wrong way (because its faster for them to get around) ? (I'm not saying they do any of the above just asking if they are allowed to...while not on an emergency call)

Paulw

I haven't seen anywhere that specifies that they must be on an emergency call.

It only seems to say "in the performance of their duties".

Corkbah

Paulw wrote: »

I haven't seen anywhere that specifies that they must be on an emergency call.

It only seems to say "in the performance of their duties".

but thats my point ...its unclear what that actually means !!

like my example earlier: once "on-duty" are they exempt ? (which allows them to drive down a one-way street the wrong way if they choose) ...or not ?

my understanding of it is that they must be en route to an emergency situation (ie responding to a call) otherwise they must obey the rules of the road.

MagicSean

Corkbah wrote: »

but thats my point ...its unclear what that actually means !!

like my example earlier: once "on-duty" are they exempt ? (which allows them to drive down a one-way street the wrong way if they choose) ...or not ?

my understanding of it is that they must be en route to an emergency situation (ie responding to a call) otherwise they must obey the rules of the road.

Your understanding is incorrect.

TheNog

Corkbah wrote: »

but thats my point ...its unclear what that actually means !!

like my example earlier: once "on-duty" are they exempt ? (which allows them to drive down a one-way street the wrong way if they choose) ...or not ?

my understanding of it is that they must be en route to an emergency situation (ie responding to a call) otherwise they must obey the rules of the road.

Gardai are exempt from most Road Traffic laws the same as any emergency vehicle when on duty. On duty would cover emergency and non emergency calls or routine patrol. It must be clear though that driving must not unnecessarily endanger other road users or themselves.

It would be policy though to abide by road traffic laws when on patrol though

cgarrad

I'd be worried if it wasn't legal for them since Store St station is surrounded by Luas tracks...

ezra_pound

Corkbah wrote: »

as with all Irish law ...ambigious ...it is unclear if it means (as earlier stated) once they are on duty they are allowed to do whatever....or .... if the law means something else.

for example... if a Garda is on patrol ...not on their way to any calls just maintaining a presence ...are they allowed travel along bus lanes/luas tracks/drive up a one-way street the wrong way (because its faster for them to get around) ? (I'm not saying they do any of the above just asking if they are allowed to...while not on an emergency call)

That is in no way ambiguous.

Most law is as clear as possible.

It says nothing about emergency call. It says while on duty. As in not when bringing rye kids to McDonalds but when working.

Corkbah

MagicSean wrote: »

Your understanding is incorrect.

ezra_pound wrote: »

That is in no way ambiguous.

Most law is as clear as possible.

It says nothing about emergency call. It says while on duty. As in not when bringing rye kids to McDonalds but when working.

TheNog wrote: »

Gardai are exempt from most Road Traffic laws the same as any emergency vehicle when on duty. On duty would cover emergency and non emergency calls or routine patrol. It must be clear though that driving must not unnecessarily endanger other road users or themselves.

It would be policy though to abide by road traffic laws when on patrol though

so essentially they can ...if they wish.... drive up a one-way street the wrong way as long as its not a danger to anyone, similarly with driving on the luas tracks ...they can do it ....if they are not a danger to "themselves or other road users"

I'm not saying they would do it as common sense must be adhered to ...the law is not as clear as some of the people here are saying....who decides if they are a danger to themselves or others ?

just to clarify this is about the law being unclear ...not about gardai "breaking the law", for me the law is unclear as its unquantifiable - each set of circumstances is different, a garda in an unmarked car may decide to take a one-way street the wrong way by accident or design.

the general public may not be aware that the driver coming towards them is a member and they would perceive themselves to be in danger, the member would have advanced training and consider there to be no danger - there are plenty of "L" and nervous drivers on the roads ...so as I said earlier, its the law thats unclear and ambigious - your interpretation is different to mine !!

Everything in law is open to interpretation and because a members training tells them one thing - that doesn't mean its going to be interpreted the same way by someone who does not have that training, as in my example ....if a member decided they needed to travel a one-way street the wrong way the ordinary citizen does not know they are en-route to an emergency or en-route to the shops and it could be seen as abusing the traffic laws....even with two's and blue's on ...the public could interpret it differently.

MagicSean

Corkbah wrote: »

so essentially they can ...if they wish.... drive up a one-way street the wrong way as long as its not a danger to anyone, similarly with driving on the luas tracks ...they can do it ....if they are not a danger to "themselves or other road users"

I'm not saying they would do it as common sense must be adhered to ...the law is not as clear as some of the people here are saying....who decides if they are a danger to themselves or others ?

just to clarify this is about the law being unclear ...not about gardai "breaking the law", for me the law is unclear as its unquantifiable - each set of circumstances is different, a garda in an unmarked car may decide to take a one-way street the wrong way by accident or design.

the general public may not be aware that the driver coming towards them is a member and they would perceive themselves to be in danger, the member would have advanced training and consider there to be no danger - there are plenty of "L" and nervous drivers on the roads ...so as I said earlier, its the law thats unclear and ambigious - your interpretation is different to mine !!

Everything in law is open to interpretation and because a members training tells them one thing - that doesn't mean its going to be interpreted the same way by someone who does not have that training, as in my example ....if a member decided they needed to travel a one-way street the wrong way the ordinary citizen does not know they are en-route to an emergency or en-route to the shops and it could be seen as abusing the traffic laws....even with two's and blue's on ...the public could interpret it differently.

So you're suggesting Gardaí shouldn't drive on the luas tracks in case some other driver is too stupid to know the rules of the road?

Corkbah

No ... I'm saying that the law is unclear !! and open to interpretation.

I have no say in what the Gardai can and should be doing in relation to driving or other aspects of their work - god knows they have a tough enough job dealing with scummers....I've seen the abuse they receive both verbal and physical.

Paulw

Corkbah wrote: »

No ... I'm saying that the law is unclear !! and open to interpretation.

I don't believe the law is unclear at all.

"in the performance of the duties". So, any time they are doing their duty - patrolling, on their way to an emergency call, going to/from the station, or any other function of their duty, they are exempt.

Corkbah

Paulw wrote: »

I don't believe the law is unclear at all.

"in the performance of the duties". So, any time they are doing their duty - patrolling, on their way to an emergency call, going to/from the station, or any other function of their duty, they are exempt.

so you would have no problem seeing a garda driving up a one-way street the wrong way ? just because they want to get onto the adjacent street !! (no emergency, just on routine driveabout !)

I see no problem if they are en-route to an emergency but as I said the law is open to interpretation.

they would be "in the performance of their duties" and consider themselves not to be a danger but a person walking or driving along that one-way street may consider themselves to be in a dangerous position.

I think it was "the nog" who said it earlier something about as long as they are not a danger to themselves or others ... which again is open to interpretation the member may consider themselves safe while a member of the public seeing another vehicle coming towards them (possibly at speed) ...may interpret the situation as having their lives in danger.

source

Corkbah wrote: »

No ... I'm saying that the law is unclear !! and open to interpretation.

I have no say in what the Gardai can and should be doing in relation to driving or other aspects of their work - god knows they have a tough enough job dealing with scummers....I've seen the abuse they receive both verbal and physical.

The legislation is as clear as can be, Gardai and other emergency service drivers are exempt from road traffic legislation when on duty.

Emergency service personnel are on duty from the moment the begin work to the moment they finish work.

They also have a high level of driver training, which aids them in their decision making. The driver decides if the maneuver is dangerous or safe. If other road users have an issue with these decisions and the manner of the driving they can report the driver to their superiors, who will ask the driver to defend their actions.

If the superior agrees then no action will be taken. If they don't agree then sanctions will be placed on the driver.

It really is that simple.

Corkbah

source wrote: »

The legislation is as clear as can be, Gardai and other emergency service drivers are exempt from road traffic legislation when on duty.

Emergency service personnel are on duty from the moment the begin work to the moment they finish work.

They also have a high level of driver training, which aids them in their decision making. The driver decides if the maneuver is dangerous or safe. If other road users have an issue with these decisions and the manner of the driving they can report the driver to their superiors, who will ask the driver to defend their actions.

If the superior agrees then no action will be taken. If they don't agree then sanctions will be placed on the driver.

It really is that simple.

you agree and disagree with me ?? .... you say its "clear as can be" but then say if someone complains the member must "defend their actions" to their superiors, so its not as "clear as it can be" !! and therefore open to interpretation !!

if a person thinks the actions of a Garda were "breaking the law" they report it and the member must justify their actions.

so are you saying if people ...like the OP ... consider the gardai driving on the tracks as being a breach they (if they feel it worthy) should report it and let the Garda defend their actions.

EDIT: the OP asks is it legal ? the result from the thread is ... its fine for them to do it as long as they or any member of the public are not in danger and if you have an issue with them doing it report it to their superiors and let them handle it internally, so if a member of the public thinks that a garda has driven on the luas tracks or broken driving laws they can report it and the member has to justify their actions.....the member may not have considered their actions as dangerous but the public may have done so (and hence the report to superiors) ...its highly unlikely that the public will rush to a garda station to report driving on the luas tracks but its perfectly legal for them to do so and force the member to "justify" his/her right to be there..... so the law is open to interpretation !!

Paulw

Corkbah wrote: »

if a person thinks the actions of a Garda were "breaking the law" they report it and the member must justify their actions.

They justify their actions to their superiors, not to the member of the public who complains.

MagicSean

Gardaí are not exempt from Sections 51, 52 or 53 of the Road Traffic Acts. So if one of these are alleged then a Garda mayhave to defend himself in a legal sense. However I believe The Nog was referring to defending themselves on an internal basis. Just because a Garda can go through a red light it doesn't mean they should.

But the Gardas driving will not be judged by peoples reactions to it. If you get a fright and swerve because you are overtaken by a Garda that doesn't mean he is driving dangerously.

Corkbah

Paulw wrote: »

They justify their actions to their superiors, not to the member of the public who complains.

at what point did I say they would have to answer to the member of the public ?

but in saying that .... if the public don't visibly see a change then you'll have conspiracy theorists saying that the complaints are not taken seriously and matters would be referred to the ombudsman etc etc....or the public will accept that Gardai should be permitted to do whatever (until a fatal accident occurs and then you have public outcry)

Corkbah

MagicSean wrote: »

Gardaí are not exempt from Sections 51, 52 or 53 of the Road Traffic Acts. So if one of these are alleged then a Garda mayhave to defend himself in a legal sense. However I believe The Nog was referring to defending themselves on an internal basis. Just because a Garda can go through a red light it doesn't mean they should.

But the Gardas driving will not be judged by peoples reactions to it. If you get a fright and swerve because you are overtaken by a Garda that doesn't mean he is driving dangerously.

but if the garda drives down a one-way street the wrong way and you feel he/she put your life in danger you are entitled to report it and let them justify their actions (and before PaulW says it again... Yes ! ... Justify it to their superiors not the public)

I'm not advocating people reporting Gardai for doing their job, but there will always be a time where a wrong decision is made (no matter how rare it is)

mcgarrett

It is not as simple as saying Gardai are exempt from Road Traffic legislation when on duty.

Gardai on duty driving on the LUAS tracks or the wrong way down a one way street may have good reason for doing so in the course of their duties.
In the event that they are involved in a collision as a result of one of these manoeuvres they may be subject to a prosecution under s.51a, 52 or 53 of the RTA.

Notwithstanding emergency calls Gardai have a common law duty to prevent and investigate crime and may patrol in the circumstances above out of necessity.

Corkbah

mcgarrett wrote: »

It is not as simple as saying Gardai are exempt from Road Traffic legislation when on duty.

Gardai on duty driving on the LUAS tracks or the wrong way down a one way street may have good reason for doing so in the course of their duties.
In the event that they are involved in a collision as a result of one of these manoeuvres they may be subject to a prosecution under s.51a, 52 or 53 of the RTA.

Notwithstanding emergency calls Gardai have a common law duty to prevent and investigate crime and may patrol in the circumstances above out of necessity.

but its not "in the event that they are involved in a collision" ... they can be held liable if a member of the public reports it and the member has no valid reason for doing so !!

which again re-inforced my point that the law is unclear ... can anyone who differs with my opinion correct me if they believe the following statement is incorrect.

While on duty - Gardai are subject to the normal road laws that an ordinary motorist obeys, if they break the road laws they must have a valid reason for doing so, While off duty gardai are an ordinary citizen and subject to the same laws as the rest of the country.

tjc28

Corkbah wrote: »

but its not "in the event that they are involved in a collision" ... they can be held liable if a member of the public reports it and the member has no valid reason for doing so !!

which again re-inforced my point that the law is unclear ... can anyone who differs with my opinion correct me if they believe the following statement is incorrect.

While on duty - Gardai are subject to the normal road laws that an ordinary motorist obeys, if they break the road laws they must have a valid reason for doing so, While off duty gardai are an ordinary citizen and subject to the same laws as the rest of the country.

Now I know very little about the law, hence why I started the thread but your last sentence there makes sense to me. I can see why Garda might have to disobey the Rules of the Road while on duty but the way I see it if the sirens aren't going then they aren't responding to an emergency therefore they should respect the Rules of the Road and set an example to the public.

Turner

The original question was

"Is it legal for the Gardai to drive on Luas tracks"

The answer is "Yes"

Very simple really.

Corkbah

tjc28 wrote: »

Now I know very little about the law, hence why I started the thread but your last sentence there makes sense to me. I can see why Garda might have to disobey the Rules of the Road while on duty but the way I see it if the sirens aren't going then they aren't responding to an emergency therefore they should respect the Rules of the Road and set an example to the public.

there will be times when the Gardai wont turn on the sirens/lights ...as it may compromise a possible arrest.

Corkbah

Turner wrote: »

The original question was

"Is it legal for the Gardai to drive on Luas tracks"

The answer is "Yes"

Very simple really.

but its not very simple... as has been shows in the thread they are subject to sections of the law, and depending on the circumstances there could be a time when a garda driving on the luas tracks may be doing so illegally.

tjc28

Corkbah wrote: »

there will be times when the Gardai wont turn on the sirens/lights ...as it may compromise a possible arrest.

Fair point

johnnyskeleton

Corkbah wrote: »

but its not very simple... as has been shows in the thread they are subject to sections of the law, and depending on the circumstances there could be a time when a garda driving on the luas tracks may be doing so illegally.

The law is simple, but obviously determining guilt has a number of variables based on the facts. Much like all crimes really and just because killing your neighbour can be a crime but killing a home invader may not be doesn't mean that the law on murder isn't clear.

In its simplest of forms - Garda working = not criminally liable for road traffic matters except dangerous driving and related offences. Garda not working = same as anyone else.

If you believe a Garda has misused this special position in respect of driving you can complain, just as if I believe a Garda has misused arrest powers I can complain. Complaints are a matter for the Garda internal discipline and the Garda ombudsman and are not relevant to this thread.

At this stage, it seems like you are trying to muddy the waters by asserting the law is unclear because life is unclear. Unless I'm taking you up wrong, I don't understand your point (nor indeed why this thread is still going).

Corkbah

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The law is simple, but obviously determining guilt has a number of variables based on the facts. Much like all crimes really and just because killing your neighbour can be a crime but killing a home invader may not be doesn't mean that the law on murder isn't clear.

In its simplest of forms - Garda working = not criminally liable for road traffic matters except dangerous driving and related offences. Garda not working = same as anyone else.

If you believe a Garda has misused this special position in respect of driving you can complain, just as if I believe a Garda has misused arrest powers I can complain. Complaints are a matter for the Garda internal discipline and the Garda ombudsman and are not relevant to this thread.

At this stage, it seems like you are trying to muddy the waters by asserting the law is unclear because life is unclear. Unless I'm taking you up wrong, I don't understand your point (nor indeed why this thread is still going).

so the law isnt clear ... if there are exceptions to the rule !!

I'm not trying to muddy the waters, as far as I'm concerned the Gardai need more powers to deal with the scum they deal with (if someone doesn't behave according to the rules of society they should not be protected by the same rules).

some of the people on this thread have said that its fine for a Garda to drive on the luas tracks but in reality its fine as long as he/she is obeying the law (ie. not putting their life or the lives of others in danger etc etc ... so the law is not clear as it doesn't determine at what point the Garda may cross the line and it (the law) is open to interpretation by both the member and the public as each will have different perceived interpretations.

The OP asked can the Gardai drive on Luas tracks - and the answer is they can - but while they are doing so they could be breaking the law so its a Yes and No answer.... which is why I said the law is unclear and yet some of the many members here say its perfectly clear .... it might be clear to them what they are permitted to do but not to the general public so the law can be interpretated differently by a "member" versus a member of the public and so .... the law is unclear !!

Do you believe that a Garda should be allowed to do whatever they wish in respect of traffic laws (as long as no-one is hurt) or do you believe that gardai should lead by example and obey all laws unless in an emergency situation (which would be trackable by GPS of vehicle and radio/response on system).

Personally for their own driving I believe that the gardai should drive within the law unless in an emergency situation as everyone picks up bad driving habits and if someone constantly drives according to the laws then over time society as a whole should improve. (of course this needs proper enforcement and proper sentences/punishments but thats another debate)

as regards the OP - the answer is yes and no - but there is no way of telling if the garda is breaking the law or not unless you report it to his/her superiors and internal measures are taken to ensure compliance across the board - the ordinary public won't be told that because they reported X garda that this has happened so... if they report it they dont see an end result and dont know what has happened or if the driver was well within their rights to drive in the manner they did.

johnnyskeleton

Corkbah wrote: »

so the law isnt clear ... if there are exceptions to the rule !!

That's just not logical. It's like saying that the "i before e except after c" rule is unclear because it contains an exception. The law is perfectly clear, it just isn't absolute.

The law is clear. The facts in any specific case are open to interpretation. Just the same as in every single thing that happens in daily life, and in every criminal trial.

I'm not going to debate it any further if you don't understand this basic concept.

Corkbah

sorry I phrased it wrong ... its unclear because its open to interpretation !!

a member of the public may consider themselves in danger, the member may consider it to be a completely safe manoeuvre...its open to interpretation.

hardCopy

Corkbah wrote: »

sorry I phrased it wrong ... its unclear because its open to interpretation !!

a member of the public may consider themselves in danger, the member may consider it to be a completely safe manoeuvre...its open to interpretation.

But at the end of the day out doesn't matter what the member of the public thinks.

There are few enough Gardaí and fewer Garda cars around these days, if they can get their work done quicker by taking a shortcut then leave them at it.

Corkbah

hardCopy wrote: »

But at the end of the day out doesn't matter what the member of the public thinks.

There are few enough Gardaí and fewer Garda cars around these days, if they can get their work done quicker by taking a shortcut then leave them at it.

so you would say its ok to break the law as long as the final result is correct ??

where would you draw the line then ... would it be ok to bankers to give themselves interest free loans as long as the money is paid back ? would it be ok to import garlic and wrongly declare it as apples ....but as long as the money is paid back to the revenue everything should be ok ??

Seriously !! ... the law is there for a reason - yes, gardai have a tough job and I dont envy them but that isn't a reason to allow the Gardai to break the laws (the ones they are not allowed to break)

28064212

Corkbah wrote: »

sorry I phrased it wrong ... its unclear because its open to interpretation !!

a member of the public may consider themselves in danger, the member may consider it to be a completely safe manoeuvre...its open to interpretation.

The law does not mention anything about what a member of the public may consider, or what a member of the gardai may consider. It only talks about what is dangerous.

If a member of the public believes it was dangerous, they should report it. If they disagree with the outcome of that report, they can further it up the chain. Eventually, as with all legislation, it will come down to the courts' interpretation of what is dangerous.

This is true of all laws

hardCopy

Corkbah wrote: »

so you would say its ok to break the law as long as the final result is correct ??

where would you draw the line then ... would it be ok to bankers to give themselves interest free loans as long as the money is paid back ? would it be ok to import garlic and wrongly declare it as apples ....but as long as the money is paid back to the revenue everything should be ok ??

Seriously !! ... the law is there for a reason - yes, gardai have a tough job and I dont envy them but that isn't a reason to allow the Gardai to break the laws (the ones they are not allowed to break)

The Gards are exempt from this law, hence no law is being broken.

Gotham

"On Duty" sounds like it means... working.

Gotham

Oh I remember when mobile phones got banned on the roads, there was a ruckus about Gardai using them even after it was made illegal.
Something about some of their car radios aswell.

It seems like they might not be exempt from everything anyway.

Corkbah

hardCopy wrote: »

But at the end of the day out doesn't matter what the member of the public thinks.

There are few enough Gardaí and fewer Garda cars around these days, if they can get their work done quicker by taking a shortcut then leave them at it.

hardCopy wrote: »

The Gards are exempt from this law, hence no law is being broken.

as for the first part ... thats not really a good attitude to take if you are a Garda, the job of the garda is to serve and protect the general public - so if you dont care what the public thinks then in my opinion it reflects badly on you.

The second part of your first quote saying its ok for the Gardai to take shortcuts as long as they get the job done, again ...I have to disagree ... if you use that in all parts of society then where do you draw the line between whats legal and illegal, do you also think its ok to steal food from a shop simply because you want to feed your family ? or is it ok to steal from a rich person and sell the item to raise funds to pay for food, electricity etc ...the ends do not justify the means.

and now for the final quote ... the gardai are not exempt from some sections of the traffic laws (in the case of driving on a luas tracks they are permitted as long as they are not a danger to themselves or others) - so they are not exempt from the law and they are only permitted to drive on luas tracks if they can justify the action of driving on the tracks.

Pat Mustard

Corkbah wrote: »

they are only permitted to drive on luas tracks if they can justify the action of driving on the tracks.

Here is the law Corkbah.

Where does it say that Gardai have to justify their driving? Where does the law define the performance of their duties?

If you can't back up your assertions with substantive law or reference to correct rules of statutory interpretation, then you are talking through your hat.

hardCopy

Corkbah wrote: »

as for the first part ... thats not really a good attitude to take if you are a Garda, the job of the garda is to serve and protect the general public - so if you dont care what the public thinks then in my opinion it reflects badly on you.

As far as I'm concerned, they can serve and protect more people if they're not stuck in traffic.

Corkbah wrote: »

The second part of your first quote saying its ok for the Gardai to take shortcuts as long as they get the job done, again ...I have to disagree ... if you use that in all parts of society then where do you draw the line between whats legal and illegal, do you also think its ok to steal food from a shop simply because you want to feed your family ? or is it ok to steal from a rich person and sell the item to raise funds to pay for food, electricity etc ...the ends do not justify the means.

Stealing from a shop is illegal, it's not illegal for a Garda to drive on the LUAS tracks. I don't think anyone has proposed an amnesty for hungry families.

Corkbah wrote: »

and now for the final quote ... the gardai are not exempt from some sections of the traffic laws (in the case of driving on a luas tracks they are permitted as long as they are not a danger to themselves or others) - so they are not exempt from the law and they are only permitted to drive on luas tracks if they can justify the action of driving on the tracks.

They would only have to justify themselves if a complaint was made, and if that complaint was deemed worthy of investigation by a superior or the ombudsman.

Corkbah

hardCopy wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, they can serve and protect more people if they're not stuck in traffic.



Stealing from a shop is illegal, it's not illegal for a Garda to drive on the LUAS tracks. I don't think anyone has proposed an amnesty for hungry families.



They would only have to justify themselves if a complaint was made, and if that complaint was deemed worthy of investigation by a superior or the ombudsman.

I agree with your first point : Yes, Gardai could serve and protect if they were not stuck in traffic - BUT - they should not be permitted to break the law in order to maintain it...at what point and who decides which laws they are allowed to break and when they are allowed to break them....I have no issue with Gardai breaking red lights or travelling down a LUAS track IF they are on their way to respond but I object to it when they simply want to avoid traffic when on patrol.

you say that its not illegal for a garda to drive on the LUAS tracks - but the law as I understand it is they must obide by traffic laws UNLESS they have a reasonable excuse to do otherwise.

This morning I observed a garda car putting on two's and blues at a junction to take a right turn (this junction does not permit a right turn) ...the garda car continued down the street only to stop at traffic lights (which were red)....they queued up in traffic and continued on their merry way afterwards.

I believe this is an abuse of the traffic laws - but I wasn't in a position to report it, nor would I ... I don't believe anything would be done, at the same junction you will find 2 or 3 ordinary drivers do the same manoeuvre on a weekly basis (I dont stay there that long but have observed it a number of times in the last few months)...there is no facility to report these people - if its reported to the Garda then you are in a he said/she said situation - similarly if a garda is reported for doing similar its a randomer on the street's word versus the word of a Garda - and as a randomer I wouldn't like my chances with that one.

The Mustard wrote: »

Here is the law Corkbah.

Where does it say that Gardai have to justify their driving? Where does the law define the performance of their duties?

If you can't back up your assertions with substantive law or reference to correct rules of statutory interpretation, then you are talking through your hat.

please read the WHOLE thread .... and you might understand what context I made my comment in. Apologies if the wording is incorrect here's a simple version to assist you in understanding.

if a member of the public says they feel their life of the life of the driver or indeed anyone elses life was in danger caused by the garda driver on the luas tracks ...they can report their concerns to the garda's superiors and at that point the garda must respond to any allegations made against them (ie. justify their decision to drive on the luas tracks)

Paulw

Corkbah wrote: »

you say that its not illegal for a garda to drive on the LUAS tracks - but the law as I understand it is they must obide by traffic laws UNLESS they have a reasonable excuse to do otherwise.

Then it seems that you understand the law incorrectly. The law is clear - they are exempt "in the performance of the duties, where such use does not endanger the safety of road users". They do not need an excuse. They must simply be in performance of their duties, whatever that calls for.

Even in your example, they were not endangering the safety of road users so you would have no grounds for complaint.

hardCopy

Corkbah wrote: »

I agree with your first point : Yes, Gardai could serve and protect if they were not stuck in traffic - BUT - they should not be permitted to break the law in order to maintain it...at what point and who decides which laws they are allowed to break and when they are allowed to break them....I have no issue with Gardai breaking red lights or travelling down a LUAS track IF they are on their way to respond but I object to it when they simply want to avoid traffic when on patrol.

The Oireachtas decides through legislation.

Corkbah wrote: »

you say that its not illegal for a garda to drive on the LUAS tracks - but the law as I understand it is they must obide by traffic laws UNLESS they have a reasonable excuse to do otherwise.

The legislation quoted in this thread makes no mention of excuses, reasonable or otherwise.

Corkbah wrote: »

This morning I observed a garda car putting on two's and blues at a junction to take a right turn (this junction does not permit a right turn) ...the garda car continued down the street only to stop at traffic lights (which were red)....they queued up in traffic and continued on their merry way afterwards.

I believe this is an abuse of the traffic laws - but I wasn't in a position to report it, nor would I ... I don't believe anything would be done, at the same junction you will find 2 or 3 ordinary drivers do the same manoeuvre on a weekly basis (I dont stay there that long but have observed it a number of times in the last few months)...there is no facility to report these people - if its reported to the Garda then you are in a he said/she said situation - similarly if a garda is reported for doing similar its a randomer on the street's word versus the word of a Garda - and as a randomer I wouldn't like my chances with that one.

Unless they put someone in danger or you have reason to believe they were not on duty I don't see how this could be against the law.

Corkbah wrote: »

please read the WHOLE thread .... and you might understand what context I made my comment in. Apologies if the wording is incorrect here's a simple version to assist you in understanding.

if a member of the public says they feel their life of the life of the driver or indeed anyone elses life was in danger caused by the garda driver on the luas tracks ...they can report their concerns to the garda's superiors and at that point the garda must respond to any allegations made against them (ie. justify their decision to drive on the luas tracks)

Their superior may well ask you how members of the public were endangered. Depending on your account he may not feel it's worth pursuing. There's nothing in any of the legislation I've seen to make the Garda answerable to you or I.

Corkbah

hardCopy wrote: »

Unless they put someone in danger or you have reason to believe they were not on duty I don't see how this could be against the law.

I just don't understand the logic, if the garda was on his/her way to a call - no issue with them turning on the lights/sirens and making the turn, but they proceeded to join the traffic at the next junction and waited in line until the lights changed.... "on duty" to me means actually working and actively doing so, "on duty" to someone else will mean as soon as they clock in - which is why I said earlier in the thread that the law is not clear and doesn't define what "on duty" is.

like I have said plenty of times, I have no issue with a Garda driving on luas tracks or up a one-way street the wrong way as long as its justified, how can a Garda justify turning on lights/sirens to bypass one junction and yet stop at the next one which is only a couple of hundred feet down the street.

hardCopy wrote: »

Their superior may well ask you how members of the public were endangered. Depending on your account he may not feel it's worth pursuing. There's nothing in any of the legislation I've seen to make the Garda answerable to you or I.

and if the superior decides that the member had endangered lives he/she would be reprimanded and therefore their driving would be deemed illegal ...so it comes down to interpretation of the law.

The driving on the luas tracks or any driving by a member could be deemed illegal if the public report it and superior officer agrees. (am I correct ??)

28064212

Corkbah wrote: »

I just don't understand the logic, if the garda was on his/her way to a call - no issue with them turning on the lights/sirens and making the turn, but they proceeded to join the traffic at the next junction and waited in line until the lights changed.... "on duty" to me means actually working and actively doing so, "on duty" to someone else will mean as soon as they clock in - which is why I said earlier in the thread that the law is not clear and doesn't define what "on duty" is.

"On duty" to me means "Squirrel chocolate banana, who says umbrella now?". Fortunately, our personal interpretation of "On duty" is irrelevant, and the meaning of on duty is clear in the law.

Corkbah wrote: »

The driving on the luas tracks or any driving by a member could be deemed illegal if the public report it and superior officer agrees. (am I correct ??)

If the superior officer agrees that it endangers the safety of road users, then a prosecution case could be taken. The DPP will decide whether the case will proceed, and if a judge decides that the action taken endangered the safety of road users, the cop will be found guilty

You know, how every single law and prosecution works

hardCopy

Corkbah wrote: »

I just don't understand the logic, if the garda was on his/her way to a call - no issue with them turning on the lights/sirens and making the turn, but they proceeded to join the traffic at the next junction and waited in line until the lights changed.... "on duty" to me means actually working and actively doing so, "on duty" to someone else will mean as soon as they clock in - which is why I said earlier in the thread that the law is not clear and doesn't define what "on duty" is.

like I have said plenty of times, I have no issue with a Garda driving on luas tracks or up a one-way street the wrong way as long as its justified, how can a Garda justify turning on lights/sirens to bypass one junction and yet stop at the next one which is only a couple of hundred feet down the street.

I still can't understand where you're getting the notion that this must be justified.

As with most Garda powers, the Garda can use their discretion. Maybe he saw a gap in traffic and decided to make a right turn rather than go 5 minutes out of his way and at the next junction it wasn't worth sopping rush hour traffic to get through the junction.

You don't really need to understand the logic, as it's not for you to decide what is legal or illegal.

Corkbah wrote: »

and if the superior decides that the member had endangered lives he/she would be reprimanded and therefore their driving would be deemed illegal ...so it comes down to interpretation of the law.

The driving on the luas tracks or any driving by a member could be deemed illegal if the public report it and superior officer agrees. (am I correct ??)

That looks about right to me, but I'm not a lawyer or a Garda. I'd imagine they're more likely to land in hot water if they actually hit somebody.

I can understand that it may frustrate you to see them skip the queue every so often but I can't see anything illegal about it, maybe it's a PR issue, but it doesn't seem to annoy other people so much.

Corkbah

hardCopy wrote: »

I still can't understand where you're getting the notion that this must be justified.

As with most Garda powers, the Garda can use their discretion. Maybe he saw a gap in traffic and decided to make a right turn rather than go 5 minutes out of his way and at the next junction it wasn't worth sopping rush hour traffic to get through the junction.

You don't really need to understand the logic, as it's not for you to decide what is legal or illegal.
.

if he saw a gap then why the need for sirens and lights ? ... and there was traffic flowing until lights and sirens were turned on.

and .... if it was to save himself 5 mins of driving then why stop at the next junction - why not lights and siren his way through ?

as for me not needing to "understand the logic" ...I agree I don't need to understand the logic, but if lives are possibly put at risk then maybe procedures should be reviewed.

I know its not for me to decide whats legal or illegal - I'm only giving my opinion on the OPs request, are the Gardai allowed to drive on the luas ?

and as I have said on numerous occasions throughout this thread ...Yes they are allowed but not if their driving is likely to cause a danger to themselves or others, if the public feel their lives or the lives of others were put in danger they can report the driving and the matter will be questioned by the relevant authorities and if the public are correct the driver will be reprimanded and if the driver was justified in his/her actions then no action will be taken.