Vegetarianism

wolfpawnat

reprazant wrote: »

I always find it amusing how absolutely condescending people can be for no particular reason other than somebody has a different opinion to them.

I have also noticed that meat eaters seem to be very insecure and feel the need to always show why people need to eat meat and if they don't, they are food in any thread about vegetarians and I say that as a meat eater myself.

These discussions usually seem to descend into an argument between the more narrow minded individuals from both sides.

Meat eaters - Not eating meat is not natural. You're weird/going against nature.

Vegetarians - Eating meat is wrong it goes against A,B and C, and on occasion, "Will someone think of the little fluffy bunny's"

And the rest of us merely look at the argument thinking "How did that come into this?" Happens in all these sorts of "lifestyle" threads.

Both diets, if done right are fine. It is recommended to eat some meat, but if you don't make up for it in other ways. Not rocket science really.

kylith

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

You would really want to examine your own facts before challenging a peer-reviewed paper.

Pigs do not sweat in any meaningful amount. Horses on the other hand....

If you post such factually incorrect nonsense as supposedly knowledgable opinion, then I think we can view the rest of your arguments with a more than a little hint of scepticism.

Canines and felines also sweat, and felines are obligate carnivores. I'd go so far as to say that most terrestrial mammals sweat, though most do so through the pads of their feet because sweating through a thick coat of hair would be pointless. It's only because ungulates have relatively thin coats and lack paw pads that they sweat through their skins.

Jester252

I don't care what you eat as long as you don't judge what I eat.
I am friends with a vegetarians who are vegetarians due to health, animal issue or just don't like the taste of meat but they have never judged other for eating meat. A few even cook meat for their SO or family. Although knew a girl in secondary school who was a vegetarian who would lose her s1ht if she saw someone eating meat and lecture them on it. She tried to get the school to ban meat for a while. One day when asked by a student where meat came from her reply was SuperQuinn. She was in 6th year at the time.

Theatricality and deception

Jester252 wrote: »

I don't care what you eat as long as you don't judge what I eat.
I am friends with a vegetarians who are vegetarians due to health, animal issue or just don't like the taste of meat but they have never judged other for eating meat. A few even cook meat for their SO or family. Although knew a girl in secondary school who was a vegetarian who would lose her s1ht if she saw someone eating meat and lecture them on it. She tried to get the school to ban meat for a while. One day when asked by a student where meat came from her reply was SuperQuinn. She was in 6th year at the time.

Finally someone who won't judge my cannabilism.

I couldn't care less what people eat, Indo care what the healthiest way to eat is and that is not vegetarianism,it would be closer to paleo according the proper science and research that is available.

jerryqu

I have been reducing meat and dairy intake (to address a persistent sinus problem)and now wish to try cooking some of the delicious and exotic sounding dishes referred to by Shenshen in this thread.
I understand that there are pitfalls to cutting out entire food groups as pointed out by blatantrereg, so if any of the earlier posters can recommend a good ABC type cookbook that covers the basic knowledge required and simple recipes that a tyro cook can have a first-time go at I would greatly appreciate it.

judgefudge

Theatricality and deception wrote: »

Finally someone who won't judge my cannabilism.

I couldn't care less what people eat, Indo care what the healthiest way to eat is and that is not vegetarianism,it would be closer to paleo according the proper science and research that is available.

What research?

Logical_Bear

Jester252 wrote: »

One day when asked by a student where meat came from her reply was SuperQuinn.

think she was taking the piss there

Theatricality and deception

judgefudge wrote: »

What research?

http://www.paleoforlife.org/research

miss no stars

HTML5! wrote: »

I've read articles claiming it's healthier to be one. Is it really though?

Anyone ever tried it?

Any converts that are feeling way better since becoming one?

I think it would be far too difficult for me to give up meat!

It's not healthy if you haven't done your homework and aren't 100% cetain on your nutritional requirements and how to obtain them.

68 lost souls wrote: »

As humans we don't need meat but yes people enjoy it.

Yes, actually, we do if we're to eat a fully natural diet. B12 is a vitamin absolutely essential for health and it cannot be found naturally in anything other than animal products. So if you're a lacto-ovo vegetarian eating only natural products you MIGHT get enough B12, but it's impossible to eat a vegan or low-lacto-ovo vegetarian diet without supplements.

Generally speaking, it's better to get your nutrients from the food you eat rather than supplements. The only exception is where people have difficulty absorbing a nutrient due to illness or old age.

A vegetarian diet is not inherently healthy but can be made so due to modern fortified food. Interestingly, we gained all our skills that we have (over and above the skills of most complex mammals) when our ancestors started eating meat. Now tell me we're not meant to eat meat!

osarusan

miss no stars wrote: »

It's not healthy if you haven't done your homework and aren't 100% cetain on your nutritional requirements and how to obtain them.

True, but equally so of a diet including meat too.

miss no stars wrote: »

I
A vegetarian diet is not inherently healthy but can be made so due to modern fortified food.

A diet including meat isn't inherently healthy either.

miss no stars wrote: »

Now tell me we're not meant to eat meat!

The poster you quoted never said that. They said humans didn't need to eat meat. You confirmed that in your post with your reference to supplements and fortified foods.

miss no stars

osarusan wrote: »

True, but equally so of a diet including meat too..

A diet including meat is only unhealthy when the contents of it are in incorrect proportions. All people have to know is essentially they food pyramid and they have a balanced diet with all their required nutrients. A vegetarian diet cannot get sufficient nutrients from natural food sources without being out of proportion.

osarusan wrote: »

A diet including meat isn't inherently healthy either.

Actually, when fully balanced it is. A vegetarian diet that doesn't rely on supplements or artificial foods cannot be balanced, thus, cannot be healthy.

osarusan wrote: »

The poster you quoted never said that. They said humans didn't need to eat meat. You confirmed that in your post with your reference to supplements and fortified foods.

Actually, humans need to eat meat. Supplements aren't a tried and tested method of replacing an entire food group. It's like saying "oh I'm going to cut out all fruit, veg and dietry fibre and stock up on supplements, I'll be grand!" The world and its mother would tell you it's not the same.

HTML5!

Roam wrote: »

On a similar note, have you ever considered a pescatarian diet?

I don't mean to put down what you do, but I'm kind of 'all or nothing'!

I personally just don't see the point in not eating meat, but eating fish for 'ethical' purposes.

Jester252

Logical_Bear wrote: »

think she was taking the piss there

I hoped so but she was something else in class

osarusan

miss no stars wrote: »

A diet including meat is only unhealthy when the contents of it are in incorrect proportions. All people have to know is essentially they food pyramid and they have a balanced diet with all their required nutrients. A vegetarian diet cannot get sufficient nutrients from natural food sources without being out of proportion.



Actually, when fully balanced it is. A vegetarian diet that doesn't rely on supplements or artificial foods cannot be balanced, thus, cannot be healthy.

So, if you are careful to ensure your diet is balanced, you're healthy, whether your diet includes meat or not, like I said.

miss no stars wrote: »

Actually, humans need to eat meat. Supplements aren't a tried and tested method of replacing an entire food group. It's like saying "oh I'm going to cut out all fruit, veg and dietry fibre and stock up on supplements, I'll be grand!" The world and its mother would tell you it's not the same.

You've introduced the notion of a 'natural diet' to exclude the merits of fortified foods or supplements, on the basis of 'generally speaking' and what 'the world and its mother' thinks. You haven't convinced me.

miss no stars

osarusan wrote: »

So, if your diet is balanced, you're healthy, whether your diet includes meat or not, like I said.


You've introduced the notion of a 'natural diet' to exclude the merits of fortified foods or supplements, on the basis of 'generally speaking' and what 'the world and its mother' thinks. You haven't convinced me.

Science concludes that people need the nutrients available in meat.

Fortified foods have no existed for long enough to test their long term efficacy. As such, the state of the art is to obtain your required nutrients through food that exists naturally.

B12 deficiency exists in the majority of long term vegetarians.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20030618/vegetarian-diet-b12-deficiency

HTML5!

Interesting article for those not bored by this already!

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/23/human-ancestors-were-nearly-all-vegetarians/

Jester252

HTML5! wrote: »

Interesting article for those not bored by this already!

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/23/human-ancestors-were-nearly-all-vegetarians/

No surpise giving that meat was rare back then

kylith

osarusan wrote: »

True, but equally so of a diet including meat too.


A diet including meat isn't inherently healthy either.


The poster you quoted never said that. They said humans didn't need to eat meat. You confirmed that in your post with your reference to supplements and fortified foods.

In my opinion if a diet requires you to take artificial nutritional supplements then that diet is not healthy as it is not fulfilling your nutritional requirements.

miss no stars

HTML5! wrote: »

Interesting article for those not bored by this already!

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/23/human-ancestors-were-nearly-all-vegetarians/

It talks about our pre-human ancestors being mostly vegetarian. Yeah, and those who ate more and more meat evolved into us - the most complex and capable species on the planet.

Those who didn't died out.

osarusan

miss no stars wrote: »

B12 deficiency exists in the majority of long term vegetarians.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20030618/vegetarian-diet-b12-deficiency

From the linked article you posted:

Tucker's advice: "If you are a vegetarian and have been for a long time, if you are taking antacids, or are getting older and may be having some problems, or are just concerned, you can safely take vitamin supplements at levels of 500 to 1,000 micrograms (1 milligram).

So, if you're careful to monitor what your body needs to be healthy....do I have to say it again?

HTML5!

miss no stars wrote: »

It talks about our pre-human ancestors being mostly vegetarian. Yeah, and those who ate more and more meat evolved into us - the most complex and capable species on the planet.

Those who didn't died out.

I know.

I was just looking for something relating to paleo vs vegetarian as our guts were evolving then to similar to what we have now.

miss no stars

osarusan wrote: »

So, if you're careful to monitor what your body needs to be healthy....do I have to say it again?

The problem is there's no way of nature providing you with enough nutrients from a vegetarian diet. Thus, it is inherently NOT a healthy diet. It lacks essential nutrients and vitamins and unless 2/3 of lacto-ovo vegetarians aren't eating any fortified foods or taking any supplements, whatsoever, then supplements and fortification aren't good enough.

Rabidlamb

If we weren't meant to eat meat then why is it so tasty & why are cows so slow & stupid.
It demands to be eaten.

HTML5!

Rabidlamb wrote: »

If we weren't meant to eat meat then why is it so tasty & why are cows so slow & stupid.
It demands to be eaten.

Cows aren't actually that stupid...compared to us yes, but...

osarusan

miss no stars wrote: »

The problem is there's no way of nature providing you with enough nutrients from a vegetarian diet. Thus, it is inherently NOT a healthy diet.

If only there was some kind of pill one could take, that would supplement one's nutrient intake somehow.

miss no stars wrote: »

It lacks essential nutrients and vitamins and unless 2/3 of lacto-ovo vegetarians aren't eating any fortified foods or taking any supplements, whatsoever, then supplements and fortification aren't good enough.

Any idea what the figures are for B12 deficiencies among people who eat meat?

--Kaiser--

Jester252 wrote: »

No surpise giving that meat was rare back then

When is 'back then'? And how was meat rare? Seeing as animals are made of meat and there's generally a lot of us around

--Kaiser--

HTML5! wrote: »

Interesting article for those not bored by this already!

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/23/human-ancestors-were-nearly-all-vegetarians/

Awful article, and like most awful articles you find on the internet, the most intelligent thing on the page will be some of the comments

I never imagined such an article could exist that gets every single substantive argument wrong.

In order to produce an article on this subject, I would recommend an author that has some kind of direct knowledge about anything at all.

If you extend this argument to the extreme you could as well say that human ancestors were once all photosynthetic!

irst of all, I’m not a monkey. My ancestors may have been at some point, but I am not, nor were many of my ancestors before me for a very long time. You talk about how our guts look similar to other primates, but you mention nothing of biochemistry. Does what we ingest use the same biochemical pathways as they do? Do you know anything of biochemistry? Why are essential fatty acids essential if we don’t need animal fat?

Second of all, you fail archaeology and anthropology forever. See: Inuit. They eat nothing but meat, very fatty meat. They feed the lean to their dogs. Or they did. Until they started eating western food like wheat and became very sickly people.

Also see: Paleolithic Middens in Europe and the Middle East. Full of butchered large game. Tons and tons of bones. What is that about no meat? Early humans were excellent hunters. It’s called an atlatl. You should look it up. Or watch videos of African and Australian tribesmen bringing down large game with spears.

Someone has an agenda. Maybe everyone has an agenda. The least you could do is use some critical thinking skills and get your facts straight.

Tar.Aldarion

miss no stars wrote: »

The problem is there's no way of nature providing you with enough nutrients from a vegetarian diet. Thus, it is inherently NOT a healthy diet. It lacks essential nutrients and vitamins and unless 2/3 of lacto-ovo vegetarians aren't eating any fortified foods or taking any supplements, whatsoever, then supplements and fortification aren't good enough.

As per the study by the US Dietary association, supplements are the most effective way (for Everyone) to get b12. Better than meat. Second to that, fortification and dairy.

“The good news,” said ARS* administrator Floyd Horn, “is that most people can improve their B12 status by eating more fortified cereals and dairy products. Dr. Tucker’s findings show that these foods were nearly as effective as supplements containing B12 for getting people’s blood levels above the danger zone.”

"Oddly, the researchers found no association between plasma B12 levels and meat, poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12 in the diet. “It’s not because people aren’t eating enough meat,” Tucker said. “The vitamin isn’t getting absorbed.” "

What vitamins are not in a vegetarian diet? The do eat animal products even. B12 has been found to be produced from bacteria in the human stomach itself, it has been found in any lake that is not sanitized, etc. It comes from bacteria, not meat, and is now farmed in labs. So it doesn't matter at all.

Even if it was necessary to eat fortified foods or supplements that just shows that the humans best asset, their intelligence, has led to this, the now needless need for meat. Any argument about 'natural' is just nonsense.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12656203?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12166996?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20607069?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21436999?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11210144?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11430774?dopt=Abstract
etc


All of this moot anyway due to advances in humans technology, even if we ever needed meat we don't now.

Shenshen

miss no stars wrote: »

The problem is there's no way of nature providing you with enough nutrients from a vegetarian diet. Thus, it is inherently NOT a healthy diet. It lacks essential nutrients and vitamins and unless 2/3 of lacto-ovo vegetarians aren't eating any fortified foods or taking any supplements, whatsoever, then supplements and fortification aren't good enough.

What on earth gave you the idea that nature = healthy and healthy = nature?

From what I've seen of nature in my life so far, I would doubt that assumption very, very much...

jonnyfingers

I think it's pointless to debate which is the healthier diet, one that includes meat and animal products, or a vegetarian/vegan one. It's all dependent on the individual having a nutritious and balanced diet regardless of what they eat. As a previous poster said if you only eat steak you're not going to be healthy, if you only eats cakes you're not going to be healthy, if you only eat carrots you're not going to be healthy. I'm sure in an ideal world where we chased after animals with our bow and arrows, foraged in fields and forest for fruits and berries and ate freshly grown vegetables all would be fine and dandy. But I'd miss my smartphone so life wouldn't be worth living!

But thanks to the fact we live in a prosperous part of the world where all manner of foods are available we can choose what we want to eat, and for various reasons. As I stated before I'm vegan at the moment because I really want to see for myself if the claimed health benefits are true. I also really like the taste of vegan dishes. Do I have to worry about where I get vitamin B12? Yes, but only a little. Do I have a problem with animals being slaughtered so humans can eat their meat? Not totally from an animal cruelty point of view, although I would like to see it done as cleanly and humanely as possible. I am a bit more interested in the environmental impact of rearing, slaughtering, preserving and transporting animals and their meat. Again most of this could be reduced if the amount of meat being eaten was reduced. So if I'm eating away on my vegan diet, remaining healthy and in anyway reducing my carbon footprint I'm happy with that.

But most of all I'd like to see the focus move away from the "us versus them" style of debate when it comes to the pros and cons vegetarianism, and move more towards discussing the benefits of vegetarian and vegan food, how tasty it can be, becoming a better rounded cook, using that knowledge in addition to eating some meat if you wish to achieve the optimum diet, learning about any economic benefits, any environmental benefits, etc.

I think most reasonable people can agree that from a nutritional health point of view a vegetarian diet supplemented with the right amount of good quality meat would probably make up the best diet. However when you take into account all the other factors involved in getting that food from the field into your body in the present day, with current production techniques and consumption levels, the benefit scale may sway a little bit.