Why do the Nazis always come up in debates?

Ranicand

Who was worse, Hitler or Stalin?

In the second half of the twentieth century, Americans were taught to see both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union as the greatest of evils. Hitler was worse, because his regime propagated the unprecedented horror of the Holocaust, the attempt to eradicate an entire people on racial grounds. Yet Stalin was also worse, because his regime killed far, far more people, tens of millions it was often claimed, in the endless wastes of the Gulag. For decades, and even today, this confidence about the difference between the two regimes—quality versus quantity—has set the ground rules for the politics of memory. Even historians of the Holocaust generally take for granted that Stalin killed more people than Hitler, thus placing themselves under greater pressure to stress the special character of the Holocaust, since this is what made the Nazi regime worse than the Stalinist one.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/mar/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/?pagination=false


The above debate is a mute point anyway.

Chairman Mao Zedong killed between 20 to 80 million people depending on who you believe.

Hitler was the excess of the right wing.

The other two were the excess of the left wing.

Hitler was evil no doubt what the left wing never is mention Stalin and Mao.

Now some will say but Hitler was racist however Stalin went after and killed countless Christians.

My point in the 20th century the left wing and the likes of Stalin who crated the ideas of hate speech and Political correctness killed far more then the Nazis.

I think the real lesson to be learned is to avoid following like sheep.

All 3 shut down free speech and had gun control.

Biggins

What about Pol Pot?
He was also a right wacko responsible for possibly hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of deaths.

Ranicand

Biggins wrote: »

What about Pol Pot?
He was also a right wacko responsible for possibly hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of deaths.

Yes forgot about him.

jam_mac_jam

Stalin created political correctness? Gun control? Would you ever go and find out what you are talking about. Yes it could be argued that Stalin was worse than Hitler but he had little to do with political correctness.

Lionel Messy

Ok

TeddyTedson

They were kind of a big deal and it was very recent.
World War 2 shaped the world you live in today. Pre world war 2 was very different and a very tender place.

o1s1n

What has gun control got to do with it?

Frankie Lee

What about the Brits? They invented concentration camps. Never mind clearing a few million Irish of our land and don't forget arming the Khmer Rouge. Countless other example but I suppose not having a single dictator probably makes them harder to vilify.

brummytom

This is the strangest anti-left thread I've seen.

Ranicand

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Stalin created political correctness? Gun control? Would you ever go and find out what you are talking about. Yes it could be argued that Stalin was worse than Hitler but he had little to do with political correctness.

Going around calling everybody comrade.

Sending Russians into the other Republics to steal and make collectives out of farms anybody who disagreed was a racist.

Loads of people were sent to re education champs or metal hospitals if they did not agree with Soviet propaganda.

Biggins

Frankie Lee wrote: »

What about the Brits? They invented concentration camps.

Was that before or after WW2?
(Genuine question)
I know Leon Uris, the writer, wrote about them in his book Exodus (later made into a film).

Edit: upon reflection, it must of course have been before - since Germany then used such camps.
I had a "DOH!!!" moment!

TheUsual

He was a vegetarian.

/end debate

Ranicand

o1s1n wrote: »

What has gun control got to do with it?

If a population can not have guns they are sitting ducks.

Stinicker

The Nazi's did alot of good things also but these have been airbrushed from History. The Autobahn for example. Nazi's were actually left wing because they were National Socialists, i.e. Socialism for Germans but not other races. Hitler never massacred his own people either compared to Stalin and Chairman Mao. Hitlers big mistake was to attack the Russians before having defeated the UK; the rest is history really; but Communism also whilst flawed had its own good merits and ask any old normal non rich person in Eastern Europe today and most would tell you they had an easier less stressful life with guarantees before the Berlin Wall fell.

mikemac1

Biggins, the Brits used concentration camps during the Boer War

Madam_X

Stinicker wrote: »

The Nazi's did alot of good things also but these have been airbrushed from History. The Autobahn for example.

No that has not been airbrushed from history. I mean, you just mentioned it.

Nazi's were actually left wing because they were National Socialists, i.e. Socialism for Germans but not other races. Hitler never massacred his own people either compared to Stalin and Chairman Mao.

Unless they were Jewish/gay Germans. No they weren't left-wing, national socialism is not socialism.

This thread is f'ucking hilarious.

jam_mac_jam

Ranicand wrote: »

Going around calling everybody comrade.

Sending Russians into the other Republics to steal and make collectives out of farms anybody who disagreed was a racist.

Loads of people were sent to re education champs or metal hospitals if they did not agree with Soviet propaganda.

Anybody who disagreed was a racist? Do you seriously think that? All of the above are nothing to do with political correctness. Have you been reading right wing web sites for your history?

Yes they sent you to the gulag but it was not for anything to do with racisim. If anything they were very hard on certain groups like the Poles and the jews.

brummytom

Biggins wrote: »

Was that before or after WW2?
(Genuine question)

It was during the Boer War.

The young Churchill charged through imperial atrocities, defending each in turn. When concentration camps were built in South Africa, for white Boers, he said they produced "the minimum of suffering". The death toll was almost 28,000, and when at least 115,000 black Africans were likewise swept into British camps, where 14,000 died, he wrote only of his "irritation that Kaffirs should be allowed to fire on white men". Later, he boasted of his experiences there: "That was before war degenerated. It was great fun galloping about."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/not-his-finest-hour-the-dark-side-of-winston-churchill-2118317.html

Duckworth_Luas

Always surprised in these debates that John Matrix's body count is ignored.

Probably the greatest killing machine ever!

Ranicand

mikemac1 wrote: »

Biggins, the Brits used concentration camps during the Boer War

I would have included the Roman Empire but.:D

Stained Class

Adolf Hitler; Not just there for the Nazi things in life.:)

Biggins

brummytom wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/not-his-finest-hour-the-dark-side-of-winston-churchill-2118317.html

Cheers - I had a "DOH!" moment.

Biggins

Stained Class wrote: »

Adolf Hitler; Not just there for the Nazi things in life.:)

How did Hitler get home?
He drove in his folks wagon.

Lapin

Because Mr Godwin says so.

My name is URL

Isn't there a restaurant in Duberlin named after Chairman Mao?*

You even see idiots walking around in t-shirts with his face plastered on the front of it! People are stupid

*

There are pictures of Chairman Mao done in a Warhol pastiche in primary colours that add to the freshness of Café Mao.

http://www.dublinks.com/index.cfm/loc/17/pt/0/spid/E7993AA6-BE3E-42B1-AB9E440AA82A5117.htm

ffs!

Ranicand

Lapin wrote: »

Because Mr Godwin says so.

Best answer yet.

Ranicand

My name is URL wrote: »

Isn't there a restaurant in Duberlin named after Chairman Mao?

You even see idiots walking around in t-shirts with his face plastered on the front of it! People are stupid

Yes I was thinking that too.

Frankie Lee

Ranicand wrote: »

Loads of people were sent to re education champs or metal hospitals if they did not agree with Soviet propaganda.

Us Irish were worse.

Irish society was deeply complicit in the incarceration of women and girls in the laundries. In what has been described as a culture of containment, Ireland locked up more of its citizens per capita than anywhere else in the world – not in prisons, but in psychiatric hospitals, Magdalene laundries and industrial schools. Anyone who did not fit within the cruelly narrow definition of good behaviour was in danger.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/08/irealnd-magdalene-laundries-scandal-un

Stinicker

Madam_X wrote: »

No that has not been airbrushed from history. I mean, you just mentioned it.

Unless they were Jewish/gay Germans. No they weren't left-wing, national socialism is not socialism.

This thread is f'ucking hilarious.

Judaism is a religion but back then it was classified as a race because Jews kept to themselves and were thus their own group within Germany. Nazism was an extreme ideology and at at the heart of it was left wing ideals, National Socialism run on racial grounds, it was was not communistic in nature with collectivity etc. but it was socialism for white Aryan blonde Germans, the master race who should dominate all other "inferior" races. This was the ideals and the socialism for Germans has been overshadowed by the racial war and Nazi atrocities.

Madam_X

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Us Irish were worse.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/08/irealnd-magdalene-laundries-scandal-un

Fuk me, the blame-the-wrong-people brigade are out in full force tonight on AH.

No, "us" Irish were NOT worse than the Soviet regime.

Unless there was an equivalent genocide here... Oh yeh, there wasn't.

Dyr

Ranicand wrote: »

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/mar/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/?pagination=false


The above debate is a mute point anyway.

Chairman Mao Zedong killed between 20 to 80 million people depending on who you believe.

Hitler was the excess of the right wing.

The other two were the excess of the left wing.

Hitler was evil no doubt what the left wing never is mention Stalin and Mao.

Now some will say but Hitler was racist however Stalin went after and killed countless Christians.

My point in the 20th century the left wing and the likes of Stalin who crated the ideas of hate speech and Political correctness killed far more then the Nazis.

I think the real lesson to be learned is to avoid following like sheep.

All 3 shut down free speech and had gun control.

Its just because the nazi's were really good debaters, the master debate even.

Ranicand

A Single Death is a Tragedy; a Million Deaths is a Statistic

The above quote is from Joseph Stalin.

Ranicand

One more.

"It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes." (Josef Stalin)

Pottler

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Stalin created political correctness? Gun control? Would you ever go and find out what you are talking about. Yes it could be argued that Stalin was worse than Hitler but he had little to do with political correctness.

If your politics was different to his, he'd soon correct you.

jam_mac_jam

Pottler wrote: »

If your politics was different to his, he'd soon correct you.

As would all authoritarian states, but that's not what the phrase political correctness means though is it?

armchair fusilier

My name is URL wrote: »

Isn't there a restaurant in Duberlin named after Chairman Mao?*

You even see idiots walking around in t-shirts with his face plastered on the front of it! People are stupid

*

http://www.dublinks.com/index.cfm/loc/17/pt/0/spid/E7993AA6-BE3E-42B1-AB9E440AA82A5117.htm

ffs!

There was the Swastika laundry in Ballsbridge, which had a big chimney above it emblazoned with a Swastika untill the early '80's.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzu48dDktO1rnamkbo1_1280.jpg

Stained Class

Biggins wrote: »

How did Hitler get home?
He drove in his folks wagon.

Folks off Biggs.:D

The post I made before goes over most folks heads here.

Remember the Yellow Pages ads?

Madam_X

Ranicand wrote: »

The above quote is from Joseph Stalin.

Yeh we know he was a monster. Just because Hitler/the nazis get mentioned more, doesn't mean there's some sort of agenda going on. I don't know, it's probably just the handiest example to reference. The only people who get upset by that are people who are a bit too right-wing.

You need to learn what political correctness means because you obviously don't know exactly what it means. Its origins were very much beneficial to society, e.g. for disabled people.
These days, it may go too far at times (although sometimes that's just in some folks' imaginations) but I'd rather it was implemented than not. All it basically was, was "Be civil to each other rather than dicks." Not exactly something one would associate with a totalitarian communist regime.

Pottler

Stalin was a first rate shit who got lucky as the shit next door had a funny tache and picked on the wrong people.

His generals were also shits.

Leaving aside his pogroms and ethnic cleansing, anyone whose idea of having hundreds of thousands of conscripts herded at machine gun point into the enemys guns, with the man in front having a gun and some meagre ammunititon, to be picked up by the man behind when he fell and so on, and so on, had utterly no regard for human life or his own people.

If the unarmed, half starved conscripts faltered, they faced a line of machine gunners(their own) behind them who would open fire on them for their "cowardice". If they were unlucky enough to be capturd and taken prisoner, no matter what bravery they had displayed fighting, their reward on their return after the war was the gulags, for treason.. A vile nutter who does not get given out about half enough. Stalin - a dick of the highest order of dickhood.

Ranicand

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh we know he was a monster. Just because Hitler/the nazis get mentioned more, doesn't mean there's some sort of agenda going on. I don't know, it's probably just the handiest example to reference. The only people who get upset by that are people who are a bit too right-wing.

Yes being right wing is out of fashion these days.

The right wing when is does not go too far does not pander to different groups and give welfare to the lazy.

The left wing on the other hand creates all kinds of problems for everybody and it's solution it to introduce loads of rules and demonize anybody who does not agree.

Germany created the Jet.
The USSR created the Lada.

ejmaztec

Ranicand wrote: »

Going around calling everybody comrade.

Sending Russians into the other Republics to steal and make collectives out of farms anybody who disagreed was a racist.

Loads of people were sent to re education champs or metal hospitals if they did not agree with Soviet propaganda.

Is that where they cured rust?

jam_mac_jam

Ranicand wrote: »

Yes being right wing is out of fashion these days.

The right wing when is does not go too far does not pander to different groups and give welfare to the lazy.

The left wing on the other hand creates all kinds of problems for everybody and it's solution it to introduce loads of rules and demonize anybody who does not agree.

Germany created the Jet.
The USSR created the Lada.

No, both extremes are a load of ****. And the Jet engine was invented before the Nazis came to power.

Madam_X

Ranicand wrote: »

Yes being right wing is out of fashion these days.

Sigh... a political ideology is not about ****ing "fashion". And actually, plenty have blinkered, idiotic far-right views, so it's all ok...

The right wing when is does not go too far does not pander to different groups and give welfare to the lazy.

Oh so going too far to the right is ok once the lazy and the welfare recipients aren't pandered to. Christ. How can someone with Aspergers and asking for tolerance think this way...?!

The left wing on the other hand creates all kinds of problems for everybody and it's solution it to introduce loads of rules and demonize anybody who does not agree.

For example? Be specific now.

Ranicand

Madam_X wrote: »

How can someone with Aspergers and asking for tolerance think this way...?!

For example? Be specific now.

I work and I have found fitting in with a group a struggle as I find sticking to social rules difficult.

Now if people were to pander to me I might get loads of welfare and sit at home.

I am happy when I am working it fills a void it my life.

I think everybody who can work should work and get help finding work.

As regards why I dislike political correctness it the more social rules to follow the harder it is for people like me.

Another thing is I got next to no help I had to find some strength inside myself.

I often wonder if I had been pandered too would I just not have put in any effort at all?

I did not always feel this way there are times I would like to have been pandered too.:)

franktheplank

I think what's being argued is that because right wing atrocities get more media attention that this is somehow proof of a bias against right-wing ideology.

If i'm correct in what you're saying, I still don't think your argument stands. It may will be the case that the reason the Nazi Holocaust gets more attention than Stalin's or Mao's atrocities, is simply because it happened in our back yard and was committed by a 'modern' European nation.

Also, I don't think the Western world became fully aware of the extent of Stalin or Mao's atrocities until (relatively) long after the fact. What might further have lessened the impact is that we just haven't seen the same horrific graphic images of what actually occurred in China and Russia.

Another possible reason why they don't get the same attention could simply be that people feel extreme left wing ideology is less of a threat in today's world. Whereas people might feel we still need to be vigilant about the threat of the far-right.

I don't know where gun-control comes into it though???

Ranicand

franktheplank wrote: »

I don't know where gun-control comes into it though???

An armed population is not going to be marched into concentration champs or Gulags.

Madam_X

Ranicand wrote: »

I think everybody who can work should work and get help finding work.

What's the relevance of that? I and most people would agree with you on that point.

As regards why I dislike political correctness it the more social rules to follow the harder it is for people like me.

Political correctness was originally about making life easier for minorities, marginalised people. It was to prevent people e.g. like yourself being sneered at and called "retards". I really don't understand your dislike of it. I think you misunderstand it, and have gotten your definition of it from a source that pines for the days when you could be a dick to gay, disabled, non white, whatever people make them uncomfortable.

It's not about "pandering" - it's about making people feel that bit more included in society. For most of time, they weren't.

Ranicand wrote: »

An armed population is not going to be marched into concentration champs or Gulags.

Can't see how they wouldn't be... What would the civilian do? Shoot the soldiers, and then what? They'd be in even more trouble.

franktheplank

Ranicand wrote: »

An armed population is not going to be marched into concentration champs or Gulags.

Well, for one thing that's a separate argument than portrayals of left wing/right wing atrocities.

Also, I'm pretty sure Stalin sent many of his army generals to the Gulags. I'm also pretty sure they had guns.

You could also argue that it would be easier for a dictator to rise to power with easy access to weapons.

Ranicand

Political correctness was originally about making life easier for minorities, marginalised people. It was to prevent people e.g. like yourself being sneered at and called "retards". I really don't understand your dislike of it. I think you misunderstand it, and have gotten your definition of it from a source that pines for the days when you could be a dick to gay, disabled, non white, whatever people make them uncomfortable.

It's not about "pandering" - it's about making people feel that bit more included in society. For most of time, they weren't.

I was called retard among many other names.
I have found bullies seem to have the social skills to work their way around these rules and get away with it.
When I did fight back which was not often I was in trouble.

In my opinion it;s not endless rules we need it is for the rules we already had to be enforced fairly.

Can't see how they wouldn't be... What would the civilian do? Shoot the soldiers, and then what? They'd be in even more trouble.

Your being sent to a death camp how can you be in anymore trouble?:)

Gbear

I really don't see why some people need to try to shift the "wing" of various people, as if it's ****ing relevant.

It's not terribly important whether Stalin, Mao, or Hitler were right or left wing. Neither wing is correct.

What isn't correct is totalitarianism, autocracy and murdering large numbers of people.
In most of these cases you're dealing with sociopathic nutters - Mao for example was a grade A narcissist and had nothing but contempt for others. Every move was about more power for him. He probably wasn't even much of a Communist. It was merely a means to an end - absolute rule.

It's the same misunderstanding that crops up with everything - religion, politics, philosophy - what's dangerous about them is not the wrongness of any particular one but their ability to co-opt people's sense of logic by replacing it with unthinking fanaticism.
Whether it's the Taliban or the Nazi's you have the same suspension of critical faculties that has been developed through coercion, brain washing and the stifling of dissent.

On a side note, Godwin's law really pisses me off. I think that there should be a counter-law that can be invoked any time someone attempts to invoke Godwin's law. Taking something to it's logical conclusion is quite important when testing how robust an idea is and it helps to use really extreme examples, like Nazism, to test them to breaking point.

Ranicand

Stinicker wrote: »

The Nazi's did alot of good things also but these have been airbrushed from History. The Autobahn for example.

Great now they can blame Hitler for all the Motorway pileups.:D