Ireland won't be united so let loyalists fly flag – Seamus Heaney

davet82

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ireland-wont-be-united-so-let-loyalists-fly-flag-seamus-heaney-3369083.html

"They (the loyalists) have an entitlement factor running: the flag is part of it. There's never going to be a united Ireland. So why don't you let them fly the flag?"

He has a point I guess, would you agree?

After a few weeks reflection what is your opinion on the flying of the union jack?

Also will there never be a united Ireland? I always thought maybe in my lifetime but I'm not so sure when i see such a stink kicked up over flags.

Chips Lovell

I don't give a toss what flag they fly. It's a piece of cloth. Far too many people getting exercised about whether it is or isn't flying.

BraziliaNZ

Apart from a few non educated delinquents up there throwing petrol bombs in Norn Iron does anyone really give a sh*t? Just leave them to it and forget the place ever existed.

super_furry

Respect the democratic decision made and keep it to designated days. If subsequently Unionists do well at the next election and hold the balance of power they can reverse the decision.

MJ23

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I don't give a toss what flag they fly. It's a piece of cloth. Far too many people getting exercised about whether it is or isn't flying.

I couldn't care less. There'll never be peace up there. All they seem to do is antagonise each other up there, Orange men marching down some road, flying a flag etc. Plus the accent is the worst of all, can't stand it.

Agricola

He would have probably have said the same thing about the peace process 20 years ago.

They way things move forward up there is if people respect democratic decisions. If theres a vote that says fly it on certain days, fly it on certain days. If the vote says fly it all the time, fly it all the time. If the vote says fly the skull and crossbones, fly that. End of.

iDave

Ok no United Ireland then. Fine ok, so if thats the case bring NI into line with the rest of the UK for these things. I.e. fly it on designated days like all of the UK. Or is being in the UK not enough for loyalists? Perhaps being even more British than actual British and lording it over nationalists is what they really want. Protestant state for Protestant people etc.

BraziliaNZ

But why does anyone care if they're British or Irish anyway?

davet82

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

But why does anyone care if they're British or Irish anyway?

because being Irish is way cooler :cool:

Agricola

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

But why does anyone care if they're British or Irish anyway?

The problems of the North will be solved when its populated by people like you. Could take a while though!

Rhys Essien

Belfast is now a 50/50 population city,so the loyalists need to get over it.

BraziliaNZ

davet82 wrote: »

because being Irish is way cooler :cool:

Well the Brits have the NHS at least

davet82

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Well the Brits have the NHS at least

but we make better looking corpses cause we'll die younger... thanks HSE!

Tiddlypeeps

I voted let them fly it but I think I misunderstood the options. What I meant was let them fly it if they want to fly it. So pretty much the decision should be made democratically, apparently it was so I voted wrong.

listermint

Problem here is, people listening to Seamus Heaney

Crooked Jack

MJ23 wrote: »

I couldn't care less. There'll never be peace up there. All they seem to do is antagonise each other up there, Orange men marching down some road, flying a flag etc. Plus the accent is the worst of all, can't stand it.

I'm sorry are you under the impression that as soon as you set foot across the border everyone has the same accent?
I think what you're referring to is a Belfast/North Down/South East Antrim accent (which I'd take any day over the likes of the nasal whine you get in Coleraine.)
Or is it just all accents from across the border? In which case I suppose you also hate the accents of people in border areas of Donegal, Leitrim, Monaghan, Cavan and Louth.

There will indeed be peace in Ireland one day but it will only happen when all the people work for it. Ignorance and apathy the likes of which you are displaying will get us nowhere.

davet82

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I'm sorry are you under the impression that as soon as you set foot across the border everyone has the same accent?
I think what you're referring to is a Belfast/North Down/South East Antrim accent (which I'd take any day over the likes of the nasal whine you get in Coleraine.)
Or is it just all accents from across the border? In which case I suppose you also hate the accents of people in border areas of Donegal, Leitrim, Monaghan, Cavan and Louth.

I don't mind any northren accent except for wherever nadine coyle comes from, genocide would be only way to exterminate that assault on the eardrums

donvito99

Soups123

Can they not just fly both flags every fcukung day and then everyones happy

up for anything

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Belfast is now a 50/50 population city,so the loyalists need to get over it.

But surely as it is part of the UK they should be allowed to fly the UK flag whenever they want?

lertsnim

up for anything wrote: »

But surely as it is part of the UK they should be allowed to fly the UK flag whenever they want?

If it is in the UK then fly the flag on the same days as the rest of the UK.

Ghandee

This will probably shock some.

I too couldn't care less what they fly from a mast, as already stated its a piece of cloth is all.

The butchers apron hanging from Belfast city hall still doesn't convince me that Belfast is a British city any more than I'm unconvinced its an Irish one.

If they need to hoodwink themselves and convince themselves that they're more British than the folk in England Scotland and Wales(who also only fly it on selected days), let them tear away tbh.

Tombo2001

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I don't give a toss what flag they fly. It's a piece of cloth. Far too many people getting exercised about whether it is or isn't flying.

So are you saying let them fly it then? or not let them fly it?

Tombo2001

My view on this would be....

People in the Republic of Ireland dont really care whether it flies or not.

People in Great Britain dont really care if it flies or not.

People in Northern Ireland do care if it flies or not.

This is another example of how Northern Ireland is a unique distinct place with its own unique distinct issues.

Maybe what they need up there is a Northern Ireland flag that they can all get behind, and stop worrying about if they are part of this lot or part of that lot.

Step up and be a nation in your own right Northern Ireland. Get your own brand new flag and stop flying Union Jacks and Tricolours.

As wee Rory (I think) said, I'm not British, I'm not Irish.....I'm Northern Irish.

Lapin

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Belfast is now a 50/50 population city,so the loyalists need to get over it.

Thats a silly comment.



Belfast is a city of the United Kingdom regardless of the population breakdown.

Nationalists need to accept that.

Iwasfrozen

Tombo2001 wrote: »

My view on this would be....

People in the Republic of Ireland dont really care whether it flies or not.

People in Great Britain dont really care if it flies or not.

People in Northern Ireland do care if it flies or not.

This is another example of how Northern Ireland is a unique distinct place with its own unique distinct issues.

Maybe what they need up there is a Northern Ireland flag that they can all get behind, and stop worrying about if they are part of this lot or part of that lot.

Step up and be a nation in your own right Northern Ireland. Get your own brand new flag and stop flying Union Jacks and Tricolours.

As wee Rory (I think) said, I'm not British, I'm not Irish.....I'm Northern Irish.

That would be great if they would, get their own flag and stop relying on us and Britain to solve all their problems.

gallag

Ghandee wrote: »

This will probably shock some.

I too couldn't care less what they fly from a mast, as already stated its a piece of cloth is all.

The butchers apron hanging from Belfast city hall still doesn't convince me that Belfast is a British city any more than I'm unconvinced its an Irish one.

If they need to hoodwink themselves and convince themselves that they're more British than the folk in England Scotland and Wales(who also only fly it on selected days), let them tear away tbh.

Ding ding we have a winner, who had post 22 for "butchers aprine" in tired cliché bingo?

Deedsie

Lapin wrote: »

Thats a silly comment.



Belfast is a city of the United Kingdom regardless of the population breakdown.

Nationalists need to accept that.

That's also a silly comment, and a dangerous opinion. Belfast is a shared city between two distinct identities! The democratic will of the people is to have it flown on designated days... I think it's fair to say the vast majority of the UK would agree that it should be up to the people of Belfast what flag is flown and when on their city council building.

Northern Ireland has different regulations on many things compared to the rest of the UK. Gay marriage is a current one being discussed. To say Belfast is a city in the UK is accurate, but to imply all cities and countries within the UK are treated and governed the same is a nonsense.

Democracy was the chosen will of the people of Northern Ireland from the GFA... The flag coming down is the democratic will of the people of Belfast.

That may change at the next election and if it does let them put it back up! Democracy was the chosen route to peace... Lets stick with it!

Here Come The Pretzels

"They (the loyalists) have an entitlement factor running: the flag is part of it. There's never going to be a united Ireland. So why don't you let them fly the flag?"

That quote reads like a haiku-esque poem...

Lapin

Deedsie wrote: »

but to imply all cities and countries within the UK are treated and governed the same is a nonsense.

I didn't imply that.

Deedsie wrote: »

Democracy was the chosen will of the people of Northern Ireland from the GFA... The flag coming down is the democratic will of the people of Belfast.

That may change at the next election and if it does let them put it back up! Democracy was the chosen route to peace... Lets stick with it!

I agree the decision taken was democratic.

But I question the motives behind the move to table such a motion in the first place. The flag over City Hall was hardly a pressing priority for Belfast City Council. It smacks of truimphalism on the part of nationalists.

I'm all for sticking with democracy but it sickens me to see it being abused.

Crooked Jack

Lapin wrote: »

I didn't imply that.



I agree the decision taken was democratic.

But I question the motives behind the move to table such a motion in the first place. The flag over City Hall was hardly a pressing priority for Belfast City Council. It smacks of truimphalism on the part of nationalists.

I'm all for sticking with democracy but it sickens me to see it being abused.

So flying a contentious flag 365 days a year doesnt smack of triumphalism, but wanting it to be taken down so as to create a neutral, shared space and then even compromising on that reasonable demand and allowing the contentious flag to be flown on designated days is somehow triumphalism. Seems you have an odd view of what constitutes triumphalism.

Look at all those nationalist bastards. Walking around like they have equal rights. Bloody being alive and living in their home city. Triumphalist bastards

bbam

As a catholic from just south of the border I could care less if they fly the Queens knickers or our presidents boxers 24/7/365.

Why the **** don't they decide on a new neutral flag and fly that!

The truth is that there are huge segments on both sides of the divide in the north who just want to fight about anything they can. Flags is just the most recent thing they latched onto, if all flage were banned they'd fight about their right to keep flag poles anyway.

Chuck Stone

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It's a piece of cloth.

This is a very immature, reductionist understanding of symbolism.

Flags represent things - they have meaning and engender emotions.

Hobbes

Soups123 wrote: »

Can they not just fly both flags every fcukung day and then everyones happy

They will find something to argue about. Location of flags, which one is higher, etc, etc. We aren't dealing with rational people.

Crooked Jack

bbam wrote: »

As a catholic from just south of the border I could care less if they fly the Queens knickers or our presidents boxers 24/7/365.

Why the **** don't they decide on a new neutral flag and fly that!

The truth is that there are huge segments on both sides of the divide in the north who just want to fight about anything they can. Flags is just the most recent thing they latched onto, if all flage were banned they'd fight about their right to keep flag poles anyway.

This "one side is as bad as the other" argument is idiotic and wrong. That flag flew over what was supposed to be a public building for 90 years and nationalists werent outside it every day protesting. The flag was eventually reduced to designated days to create a shared environment for everybody. Loyalists/Unionists couldnt accept this small move towards equality. Loyalists/Unionists blocked roads. Loyalists/Unionists protested. Loyalists/Unionists rioted. Loyalists/Unionists attacked cops and tried to burn a cop alive.

old hippy

Chuck Stone wrote: »

This is a very immature, reductionist understanding of symbolism.

Flags represent things - they have meaning and engender emotions.

They are silly objects when you think about it, though.

P_1

IMO he's right. There win't be a United Ireland so long as they're all so bat schit crazy up there. And TBH I wouldn't want to share a country with those lunatics.

So untill they all calm the fcuk down up there Mr Cameron and Mrs Windsor are welcome to them.

Deedsie

Lapin wrote: »

I didn't imply that.



I agree the decision taken was democratic.

But I question the motives behind the move to table such a motion in the first place. The flag over City Hall was hardly a pressing priority for Belfast City Council. It smacks of truimphalism on the part of nationalists.

I'm all for sticking with democracy but it sickens me to see it being abused.

You seemed to disagree that Belfast was somehow different when another poster argued that Belfast is a 50/50 city. For some reason you stated (accurately) that its a UK city! But to me, the way you said it you were implying that its position in the UK over rules the fact that its a shared city! I apologise if I read you wrong, it's just the way I picked you up by saying the original posters comment was silly. Where in my opinion he was 100% correct.

I don't know what the motives were, except that the political parties that got the most votes in Belfast city council had a policy of removing the flag from the building. The alliance went against this and proposed a policy of designated days. Democracy!

Toys flying out of prams throughout the streets of east Belfast won't change that fact. Perhaps if the unionist forum gets its ducks in a row they will get enough voters out to get back a majority in BCC. Then the flag can go back up.

Chuck Stone

Lapin wrote: »

It smacks of truimphalism on the part of nationalists.

Upside down and back to front shite tbh. The decision to fly the Union fleg on designated days was a democratic compromise. If you have any understanding of the history of Loyalism (which you clearly don't) you'll note that it is deeply rooted in anti-Irishness, anti-Catholicism, triumphalism and dominance.

old hippy wrote: »

They are silly objects when you think about it, though.

It's a pointless observation. Watch me - I can do it too.

The Pyramids are just a big bunch of stone blocks.

Newgrange is just a man-made cave.

The Mona Lisa is just paint on fabric.

Lapin

Crooked Jack wrote: »

So flying a contentious flag 365 days a year doesnt smack of triumphalism, but wanting it to be taken down so as to create a neutral, shared space and then even compromising on that reasonable demand and allowing the contentious flag to be flown on designated days is somehow triumphalism. Seems you have an odd view of what constitutes triumphalism.

Look at all those nationalist bastards. Walking around like they have equal rights. Bloody being alive and living in their home city. Triumphalist bastards

It is the national flag of the United Kingdom. Who is contending that ?

There was nothing contentious about the flag being flown over city hall for over 100 years prior to the vote being taken.

I for one have never heard anyone complain about it before all this crap blew up.

It only became contentious when a nationalist majority decided to remove it for no explanitory reason.

kingtiger

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I don't give a toss what flag they fly. It's a piece of cloth

would you fly a Swastika flag?

after all its just a piece of cloth

Deedsie

Lapin wrote: »

It is the national flag of the United Kingdom. Who is contending that ?

There was nothing contentious about the flag being flown over city hall for over 100 years prior to the vote being taken.

I for one have never heard anyone complain about it before all this crap blew up.

No one is contending the union flag is the flag of the united kingdom. You seem to want someone to contend it though?

Ya plenty of nationalist requested on lobbied to have it removed. And then there was a conflict during the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s to remove it... Most loyalists probably hadn't heard about any proposals to remove it either until the ol letter campaign by the DUP... That calmed the entire situation down nicely!

Lome

The thing i dont understand about the whole flag issue is that its the exact same as london or any other city... Its just bringing it in line with other cities. So if they were so "British" surely they'd want to be more like london... They're a dying breed anyway.

Lapin

Deedsie wrote: »

No one is contending the union flag is the flag of the united kingdom. You seem to want someone to contend it though?

Why do you consistantly refer to it as the 'contentious flag' then?

There is nothing contentious about the flag.

Deedsie

Lapin wrote: »

Why do you consistantly refer to it as the 'contentious flag' then?

There is nothing contentious about the flag.

Not only do I not constantly, I have never called it contentious... But then I don't live in nor have I ever lived in Belfast! I'm sure I'd object and vote for a party who support it's removal if I did live there! To much blood spilled in the name of both flags!

OCorcrainn

If Seamas Heaney said that it must be true. :pac:

On a related note his poetry is completely overrated .

runawaybishop

iDave wrote: »

Protestant state for Protestant people etc.

People are actually religious these days, or using religion as an excuse?

Lapin

Deedsie wrote: »

Not only do I not constantly, I have never called it contentious... But then I don't live in nor have I ever lived in Belfast! I'm sure I'd object and vote for a party who support it's removal if I did live there! To much blood spilled in the name of both flags!

Apologies, I got you mixed up with the comments of another poster her over this -

Deedsie wrote: »

No one is contending the union flag is the flag of the united kingdom.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

So flying a contentious flag 365 days a year doesnt smack of triumphalism, but wanting it to be taken down so as to create a neutral, shared space and then even compromising on that reasonable demand and allowing the contentious flag to be flown on designated days is somehow triumphalism.

It seems Crooked Jack has the problem with the Union Jack.

Deedsie

Lapin wrote: »

Apologies, I got you mixed up with the comments of another poster her over this

Fair enough, it happens to us all!

tipptom

This is just their idea of applying for a grant application for the local community,they are not educated enough to fill out the forms.
They can then go out and spend the money on new top of the range flutes and lambeg drums for the wee ones so they can parade around in circles outside the local Catholic church on their march just like Daddy does instead of educating them and then the cycle continues.

gallag

tipptom wrote: »

This is just their idea of applying for a grant application for the local community,they are not educated enough to fill out the forms.
They can then go out and spend the money on new top of the range flutes and lambeg drums for the wee ones so they can parade around in circles outside the local Catholic church on their march just like Daddy does instead of educating them and then the cycle continues.

You sound just as bigoted as the people you stereotype.