Substitution question

BattleCorp

This might be a stupid question but are firearm substitutions still allowed?

I was told by a Garda last night that you couldn't do a substitution anymore. I was told that you have to go through the full FAC1 form to get the new gun and then, when you get your new gun, you then have to fill in another form to cancel your old gun licence.

Is the Garda correct?

Tommy87

You can definatly still substitute on a like for like basis. As in a .243 rifle for another one the same calibre. A friend of mine did one before Xmas no hassle. And it's the same for shotguns I'd imagine. But from what my local Garda told me lately you can't substitute a shotgun for a rifle. Even though the fo from the main station rang me when he was processing my application to say "you should have done a substitution with that and save yourself the 80 quid". So I suppose it depends in the Garda or what the Garda knows

BattleCorp

Tommy87 wrote: »

You can definatly still substitute on a like for like basis. As in a .243 rifle for another one the same calibre. A friend of mine did one before Xmas no hassle. And it's the same for shotguns I'd imagine. But from what my local Garda told me lately you can't substitute a shotgun for a rifle. Even though the fo from the main station rang me when he was processing my application to say "you should have done a substitution with that and save yourself the 80 quid". So I suppose it depends in the Garda or what the Garda knows

I was thinking that was the case. What I was told was incorrect so. I'll be doing a sub so. Thanks.

Cass

Absolutely it's still possible. It's still on the FCA1. Substitution box, details of old firearm, details of new firearm, etc.

deerhunter1

Tommy87 wrote: »

You can definatly still substitute on a like for like basis. As in a .243 rifle for another one the same calibre. A friend of mine did one before Xmas no hassle. And it's the same for shotguns I'd imagine. But from what my local Garda told me lately you can't substitute a shotgun for a rifle. Even though the fo from the main station rang me when he was processing my application to say "you should have done a substitution with that and save yourself the 80 quid". So I suppose it depends in the Garda or what the Garda knows

No you can ONLY subsitute like for like not shotgun for rifle, not even 12g to 20g or .22 for .i7 or visa versa, like for like is as it states same calibre for same calibre, make model does not make a difference only tyhe caliber

Cass

Of course you can sub a .22lr for a .17hmr. You can also sub a 6.5 for .308, a .308 for .243, a 12g for a 20g, an O/U for a semi auto, etc.

I would say it depends on the district as to how far each FO is willing to go, but most are straight forward enough. I have also done most the ones i listed at the start of this post.

clivej

deerhunter1 wrote: »

No you can ONLY subsitute like for like not shotgun for rifle, not even 12g to 20g or .22 for .i7 or visa versa, like for like is as it states same calibre for same calibre, make model does not make a difference only tyhe caliber

I can't agree with you on this.

'Like for Like' = unrestricted license for another unrestricted license.

Otherwise your end up paying €80 for the license.

It's the local Garda that don't know this and therefore insist you get a new license.

YOU should be able to sub an Air rifle license for a .308 CF license.

Just the way I see it.


From the FCA1 form, it does not state anything about caliber only 'Firearm'

3.4 - Firearm Substitution (Complete 3.4 if you are replacing your current firearm with a different one.)



FCA1 form Sub section.jpg

Cass

While being mindful of my previous post an air rifle for a .308 is a bit of a stretch.

If the calibers are "close" and used for the same purpose my FO has always allowed subs. If the calibers are on the opposite ends of the spectrum or completely different firearms then he has insisted on a new application.

Once again this "like for like" crap leaves the subject so vague as to allow or disallow anything the FO wishes/deems appropriate. So what goes in one district does/may not in another.

cookimonster

Cass wrote: »

Of course you can sub a .22lr for a .17hmr. You can also sub a 6.5 for .308, a .308 for .243, a 12g for a 20g, an O/U for a semi auto, etc.

I would say it depends on the district as to how far each FO is willing to go, but most are straight forward enough. I have also done most the ones i listed at the start of this post.

Have to agree on this one based on own experience, as stated on this forum before was offered a sub one of my .22's when I went for the .243 and my FO is at dealing with FAC for decades.
Shooting buddy subed a .22 for .308, mind you they came back the following year and told him there had been a mistake, he told them the 'mistake' could be explined in court, they never got back to him.
My own friend, a Garda, told me that he subed a .22 for centre fire when was a FO, stating 'if doesn't say you can't'......
This vaugeness will work for you or against you.

EP90

Cass wrote: »

While being mindful of my previous post an air rifle for a .308 is a bit of a stretch.

While no where near the 'stretch' above, I did sub an air rifle for a .22lr late last year with no querry or problem

Cass

That, in my opinion, is perfectly acceptable. Both smaller calibers, and proficiency in one would translate well to the other.

amjc1974

I recieved my licence last week but i havent picked up the rifle yet as ive found the same rifle with a different rfd for a lot cheaper. Can a sub be done or do i have to purchase the first rifle??

clivej

amjc1974 wrote: »

I recieved my licence last week but i havent picked up the rifle yet as ive found the same rifle with a different rfd for a lot cheaper. Can a sub be done or do i have to purchase the first rifle??

Do the sub.
It should only take a week, 10 days at most

amjc1974

clivej wrote: »

Do the sub.
It should only take a week, 10 days at most

Thanks for the reply, thought i would be stuck with the more expensive rifle. It really pays to shop around.

Cass

amjc1974 wrote: »

I recieved my licence last week but i havent picked up the rifle yet as ive found the same rifle with a different rfd for a lot cheaper. Can a sub be done or do i have to purchase the first rifle??

Did you leave a deposit or pay for the first rifle in the first dealers?

Change of mind usually negates any possibility of a refund. Check before doing anything. If there are no issues like that then do as Clivej said.

amjc1974

Cass wrote: »

Did you leave a deposit or pay for the first rifle in the first dealers?

Change of mind usually negates any possibility of a refund. Check before doing anything. If there are no issues like that then do as Clivej said.

I left 50 euro as a deposit, i would have left more but i got the feeling of being rushed ingo buying it tbh, i did go to a couple of other dealers but none had what i was after. I told the dealer that i was new to shooting and i think he took advantage of this. While i was waiting for the licence to come through i had time to learn more about the sport and to get more understanding of prices to where i found the same rifle 150 euro cheaper!!

Cass

There is nothing stopping you from substituting the license straight away.

As said above the dealer you left the deposit with may tell you he is holding onto the €50 because he held it for you, and there was thousands lining up to buy it. Anyway look at it this way. If you do loose the €50 you are still up €100 from the savings in the other dealers.

However before you "jump ship" have a good look at the rifle in the other dealers. Make sure it is the same caliber, condition, etc. etc. Nothing worse than pulling out of a deal, going elsewhere, doing a sub to get a shock when it's not what you thought.

clivej

Just read this from the Garda Commissioner’s Guidelines



" SUBSTITUTIONS AND ‘LIKE FOR LIKE’
When an application to substitute a firearm certificate is made – on the basis of ‘like for like’ – the process should be completed by the Garda Síochána in a reasonable time frame of approx. 14 days. This application will be made on the ordinary application form FCA1 and will not require a fee. In this situation, the applicant will not be required to undergo the entire application process again e.g. medical enquires, referees etc. It should be noted that approx two weeks following the issue of a substitute firearm certificate, the original firearm certificate will cease to be in force and should be destroyed by the holder.

When assessing a ‘like for like’ application, an issuing person should be satisfied that the applicant’s ‘Good Reason’ for possessing the firearm has not changed since the original grant of the certificate. For example, substituting a non restricted long firearm for another non restricted long firearm is allowable provided that the applicant does not intend shooting deer instead of say species that are destructive to farming or hunting activities. As stated, the ‘Good Reason’ must remain fundamentally the same as in the original grant. "