Voting at age 16, trouble ahead?

Annasopra

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I think its as a result of falling voter numbers. The only people such a change in voting age would benefit is political parties.

Evidence from Austria diesn't show a large increase in turnout

http://duf.dk/uploads/tx_templavoila/03_OPLx_2011-01-31_OEstrig-Eva_Zeglovits_Voting_Age_16_Case_Austria_01.pdf

http://www.oegpw.at/tagung2011/papers/1C_Zeglovits.pdf

Eve_Dublin

Artful Badger, I'm leaving it there.

One can have ideals but tolerate what it already in place and concede that's it's better than what they are suggesting (lowering the age to 16). It's not simply about agreeing and disagreeing. Things are never that black and white. It's about having your ideals but acknowledging they're perhaps not workable and agreeing to a compromise.

The thread wasn't a debate on the ideal age (like you, I think it's down to the individual but that's not workable), it was on whether it should be lowered and I don't think it should.


Anyway, I won't confuse you anymore. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Larkin00

I think there should be some sort of test to see if one has the capacity to vote. I'm 17 and consider myself mature enough to vote like a lot of people I know. But on the other hand, I know plenty of people my age who don't give a sh1te about politics or have a clue what its all about. A friend of mine who is 18 and has voted in the past doesn't even seem to understand democracy, she just voted what her mam was voting.

So yeah, some sort of competency test that can be sat at 16 would be perfect. My ma told me about a few friends of hers from work who vote for the best looking candidate :O These women are all over 35 aswell....

Artful_Badger

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Artful Badger, I'm leaving it there.

One can have ideals but tolerate what it already in place and concede that's it's better than what they are suggesting (lowering the age to 16). It's not simply about agreeing and disagreeing. Things are never that black and white. It's about having your ideals but acknowledging they're perhaps not workable and agreeing to a compromise.

I think they are black and white in terms of your own views though. Yo say "If its not broken, dont fix it" while at the same time saying "Its not ideal". That to me is a contradiction.

The thread wasn't a debate on the ideal age (like you, I think it's down to the individual but that's not workable), it was on whether it should be lowered and I don't think it should.

Our discussion was on maturity and experience in relation to voting, with me of the opinion age doesnt make a difference as there is no legal requirement on anyone to be informed nor is it possible to measure anyone's maturity. Your view was that lack of experience means lack of an informed and mature decision. The ideal age is a rather pointless thing as its only in question up until a person becomes a full adult. Once that happens (currently 18) then the discussion ends as its a fundamental right that every adult has a vote.

Anyway, I won't confuse you anymore. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Seems we will. Good day.

Doc Ruby

Anything to pry some of the power away from the grey vote.

BuilderPlumber

Voting is a complete waste of time in Ireland. Since we are a dictatorship already, why bother. I voted for change in 2011 and did not get it. Only more unemployment and repression and poverty is created while the government and cronies get rich. There is not 1 decent party or even politician to vote for in this country anymore. Self serving dictators who exaggerated a minor financial crisis to deliberately make it worse so they can spend less on the people and more on themselves is what Ireland's regime has become. Believe me, there are many better traits in the post 1979 Iranian Revolutionary Guards regime than there is in Ireland !!

Sergeant

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Believe me, there are many better traits in the post 1979 Iranian Revolutionary Guards regime than there is in Ireland !!

Enlighten us as to what they are.

Madam_X

Calling Ireland a dictatorship really is dickish to people living in terror under actual dictatorships and who would give anything for even just some of the freedom we enjoy here. Height of bad taste IMO.

BuilderPlumber

Sergeant wrote: »

Enlighten us as to what they are.

they are more honest in that they do not pretend to be democratic and they pay people money to keep them somewhat happy. Also, there is less indirect tax there and less income tax in the presanctions time. Don't get me wrong though it is a bad regime and does not deserve support and Iran would be a very rich country that could help the rest of the world under any other regime. But its regime gets a lot of secret support from unlikely sources to prevent the country's development.

conorhal

I'd disagree with lowering the voting age, a limit must be set, as with any rite of passage, it's the same (quite rightly) with the age of consent. It's all about gauging the probable level of maturity and life experience required to have a mature and mindful understanding of any given situation.
Sure, age is no absolute measure of maturity, but it's a better measure then most.

That said, I'd be really surprised if the voting age was lowered, simply because, as several have pointed out, it would be advantagous to the risk minded teens that might be more naturally attracted to the whackier varieties of political idealism. Given that some of the bigger parties in the Dail would loose out, I can't see them allowing it.

At the end of the day the constitutional convention has no real power anyway, it's merely there to rubber stamp the decisions Labour and FG have already horse traded on in their program for government, they don't actually care what people think.
Personally, I'm wholly againt the whole re-draughting of the constitution in the first place. I'd no more let the intellectual midgets in Government, who couldn't even draught and pass an amendment to allow them question and pass judgement the much hated banking sector, to re-draw the constitution of this country any more then I'd let a 16yr old do it.

BuilderPlumber

Madam_X wrote: »

Calling Ireland a dictatorship really is dickish to people living in terror under actual dictatorships and who would give anything for even just some of the freedom we enjoy here. Height of bad taste IMO.

I agree that Ireland is less of a dictatorship in the traditional sense than the typical African, Middle Eastern and former Latin American and WW2 era ones. But Ireland is still on the dictatorship spectrum - albeit not near Stalin or Hitler.

Classic dictatorships are republics that usually use the death penalty, are very militaristic and have a personality culture. But other forms exist as well - such as absolute monarchies with repressive laws like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. And then you have countries like Ireland that are not - agreed - fullblown dictatorships but have a dictatorial society.

True, many people would crave for the freedoms we have here and rightly so. True, many people are put to death and endure repressive laws in the Middle East but everything is relative. For example, Iran is very repressive in Western terms but is actually relatively nonrepressive in Middle Eastern terms and many Afghans and Iraqis fled to there as it was "better" than their countries. Likewise, many Iranians may see Ireland as "better" than their place and many Irish then see Australlia as the answer to everything.

Bottom line is any attempt to take away hard won freedoms should be opposed and is a worrying sign. The way this economic crisis is being dealt with is worrying and shows an uncaring new light on our system. We should indeed be thankful that we are not yet like these other places but it is up to us as a people to mind our freedoms. It changed so quickly elsewhere - those nations we call true dictatorships today were not always like that either - and why should Ireland be different?

Peregrine

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Voting is a complete waste of time in Ireland. Since we are a dictatorship already, why bother. I voted for change in 2011 and did not get it. Only more unemployment and repression and poverty is created while the government and cronies get rich. There is not 1 decent party or even politician to vote for in this country anymore. Self serving dictators who exaggerated a minor financial crisis to deliberately make it worse so they can spend less on the people and more on themselves is what Ireland's regime has become. Believe me, there are many better traits in the post 1979 Iranian Revolutionary Guards regime than there is in Ireland !!

Your comment on similarities between people living under true authoritarian regimes and Ireland is insulting and seriously disrespecting to the people who suffered and lived in fear of pain, suffering and death.

Minor financial crisis? The measure taken by this government were vital, no other government could have done anything completely different. What did you expect? A new government to come in pull a magic lever that gets countries out of a depression that FF so badly didn't want to pull cos they're assholes apparently who wanted people to suffer and then start giving out money to everyone? Grow up.

I have no doubt that you don't even understand what a dictatorship is but given that dictatorships and oligarchies are usually established after a period of anarchy. Which is exactly what you would have got if economic measures weren't taken by this government and the last government. When a country is borrowing more than it's making - life is going to be hard, deal with it. Who's fault all of this is is for another thread. ROI was established as a constitutional republic and still is one.

Yours sincerely,
A 16 year old

P.S. On the actual thread topic: No taxation without representation, why should I pay 21% VAT on everything I buy with MY money when I don't even get a say on which TDs I want to represent my constituency. And do you people really think that just because the voting age is lowered means every 16 year old in the country is going to get themselves into a polling station after school? People who care will, people who don't wont.

hoodwinked

personally i'd hate my 16 year old sister to have a vote simply because if justin bieber ran she'd vote for him.


but then there are 16 year old who'd be more politically aware than i am.


in saying that if they gave her the right to she probably wouldn't even bother to vote in the first place.

Earthhorse

I read somewhere recently that the brain doesn't fully develop until age 25 so perhaps we should be moving things in the opposite direction.

seamus

The voting rate among 16 year olds will be so low that they won't be able to have an impact. I had basically no interest in politics until I started earning proper money.

I don't really see any issue with this.

FionnK86

When I got my first vote when I was 18 I voted for who my parents voted for...cant see kids doing much different. The types who would vote for more extreme left parties for the sake of "being a rebel" wouldn't be arsed to vote. But anyway what's wrong with them voting for those parties?They are as Irish as you or I, just because you're younger with less experience in politics doesn't mean you should be treated less fairly.

gobnaitolunacy

I've no problem with 16 y/olds voting....... for The Voice, Big Brother and X-Factor.

FloatingVoter

Earthhorse wrote: »

I read somewhere recently that the brain doesn't fully develop until age 25 so perhaps we should be moving things in the opposite direction.

Well, Ming, Mick Wallace, and all the last FF cabinet are well over 25 so they must count as exceptions to the fully developed brain rule.

Dempsey

UCDVet wrote: »

Instead of allowing people to vote based on age (which is a poor indicator of maturity or the ability to make informed, rational decisions), I think we should use an actual test.

I'm in my 30s and I'm a horrible driver. I don't even have a license to drive in Ireland currently. There are kids who can drive better than me. It's great that we have an actual test, instead of assuming I can drive better than every 21 year old, just because I'm older.

I've seen political posts on Facebook from people that seem completely unable to grasp even the most basic concepts. They shouldn't be voting.

And I don't mean this as an insult. For years I knew nothing about politics, but was of legal age to vote. I couldn't possibly have an informed opinion on anything. So I didn't vote...and I don't think I should have been allowed to.

So the government should decide who can vote? That system wouldnt be abused at all! :rolleyes:

seamus

Dempsey wrote: »

So the government should decide who can vote? That system wouldnt be abused at all! :rolleyes:

Even a "fair" voting "test" would basically remove a big chunk of the electorate - primarily those less educated and by implication those earning the least.

Unlike driving, there's a huge contingent of people - 30 to 40% who never vote under any circumstances. Slot a test in there and they will be permanently barred from the voting process, along with a further 10 or 15% who just can't be bothered sitting a test which they perceive as having no value.

This would mean that the rhetoric of the "governing elite" that people like to whinge on about would become an actual reality as the people who are "licenced" to vote would primarily be the top 40-50% of earners, making decisions for everyone.

BuilderPlumber

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

You sir are an idiot and your comment on similarities between people living under true authoritarian regimes and Ireland is insulting and seriously disrespecting to the people who suffered and lived in fear of pain, suffering and death.

Minor financial crisis? The measure taken by this government were vital, no other government could have done anything completely different. What did you expect? A new government to come in pull a magic lever that gets countries out of a depression that FF so badly didn't want to pull cos they're assholes apparently who wanted people to suffer and then start giving out money to everyone? Grow up.

I have no doubt that you don't even understand what a dictatorship is but given that dictatorships and oligarchies are usually established after a period of anarchy. Which is exactly what you would have got if economic measures weren't taken by this government and the last government. When a country is borrowing more than it's making - life is going to be hard, deal with it. Who's fault all of this is is for another thread. ROI was established as a constitutional republic and still is one.

Yours sincerely,
A 16 year old

P.S. On the actual thread topic: No taxation without representation, why should I pay 21% VAT on everything I buy with MY money when I don't even get a say on which TDs I want to represent my constituency. And do you people really think that just because the voting age is lowered means every 16 year old in the country is going to get themselves into a polling station after school? People who care will, people who don't wont.

To point out: ANY decision by ANY government that goes against the people's wishes and protects elites is undemocratic. I already mentioned that I am not putting Ireland into the Hitler, Taliban or Khmer Rouge category of dictatorship but the people deserve better than the crap we are being dealt.

You are right that killer dictatorships are borne out of violent revolutions and civil wars. These situations are usually brought about by mismanagement of a previous regime. Weimar Germany or Pahlavi era Iran saw poor governance that lead to Hitler and the Revolutionary Guards regimes respectively. Now, there are these types in Ireland too waiting to unleash terror. Don't go thinking that what is in Love/Hate is fiction!

For the record, it would have been a minor financial crisis if managed better. The bank guarantee is what wrecked Ireland and this was the banks putting fear on the then government. The media negativity as well but this current government still oversee huge salaries paid to themselves and their cronies. So, I ain't no idiot! I can see all this and I can see poor people who were not part of all this crap paying for it !!

And no I am not insulting victims of oppressive regimes. I on the contrary have African, Iranian, Iraqi and Pakistani friends whose countries have been taken over by scumbags because of poor governance from better governments of the past that allowed extremists in. Because of this history, it is our duty to make sure Ireland does not slip down to the killer/terrorist end of the dictatorship spectrum (again, don't tell me these types don't exist here - they do - and don't tell me poor governance and unequal distribution of wealth don't lead this. This would insult the warnings my Iranian, African and Syrian friends say).

A lot of top-level waste exists in Ireland. RTE staff on six figure salaries, TDs and ministers the same, bankers of 900K. And other people poor. That is wrong. Now, speculative investors who were too greedy and ended up poor a different matter. But, people who lost through no fault of their own and have to live in poverty while the top guys earn massive sums for doing easy jobs. that may not be 9/11 or the Killing Fields but it is still wrong and still a form of dictatorship.