Patrick O'Brien, child rapist, is free today.

CaraMay

Justice Paul carney allows Patrick O'Brien walk from court yesterday despite having handed down a 3 year custodial sentence to the self confessed serial child rapist.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/my-father-raped-me-for-10-years-but-he-walks-out-of-here-im-devastated-3361483.html

This country is so messed up. The gathering slogan should be 'come to Ireland, rape your child and walk free'.... It's disgusting and what's even more vile is that his wife is standing by him.

What do you think?

Tommy87

Sorry I'm not a lady, I saw the thread in the main page,

But this sickens me. And what really makes my blood boil is people will be on his side because they say this is a sickness and it's not his fault. If caught in time he could be treated. Are these people for rea????

It's crimes like these that deserve capital punishment.

My opinion

Tommy

clappyhappy

I felt so sorry for his abused daughter last night, going through years of abuse, then having the courage to report him and then showing more courage by going public. How a judge can do that is beyond me, so what if he is old and ill, he never once took his young daughters feelings, emotions or age into consideration when he was repeatedly raping her. Disgusted.

CaraMay

It's disgusting. It struck me that the mothers part should be discussed too. What kind if woman stands by the man who raped their daughter for 10 years?

It's a double betrayal for their poor daughter.

Mod

The mother of the victim has not been accused or convicted of any crime and any defamatory comments will result in mod action.

SueBoom

Vile. I'm completely ashamed that our country's legal system has allowed this evil man to walk free and only sentenced him to three years. What a disgrace! That poor woman, she has received no justice for what he put her through. He should be rotting in prison until his dying day.

cantdecide

Another day of feeling ashamed to be Irish. The guy's been out there enjoying the best years of his life knowing he did what he did to his poor daughter and the unimaginable horror she must have been going through. Now he's a withered old man and all of a sudden he's too ill to be punished? It's all wrong. He should be thanking his twisted lucky stars he got away with it as long he did.

I really admire her for the way she handled herself. She must be made of stern stuff.

freeeeezing

cantdecide wrote: »

Now he's a withered old man and all of a sudden he's too ill to be punished?

I heard on the radio this morning that somebody was in from a prison saying that he's not too ill to be punished. They can take him and provide whatever he needs for his illness.

It's an absolutely mental situation. How can we fix this? I know judges are separate from the government but I'm pretty sure that most people would vote on some constitutional change (if that's whats needed) to make sure this kind of horrible situation stops happening.

Curly Judge

Paul Carney puts so many high profile scumbags through his hands that it would be surprising if he didn't end in the papers now and then.
However this seems to be a very quixotic and eccentric judgement.
I get the impression it has more to do with a little spat between him and the DPP's office on one hand - and the Court of Criminal Appeal on the other - than the specifics of this case.

howamidifferent, as per the charter, if you have an issue with mod warning, take it to PM, do not derail the thread.

jammywammy

Imagine that girl having the bravery to come forward after all these years, reporting it, dealing with the fallout from family, finally her dad admits it, then she let down by the justice system.
Usually they say rape cases arent prosecuted due to lack of evidence, but here the man admits it and actually walks free from court?? Id say even his own legal team cant get their head around it.
Its unbelievable. Simply unbelievable

CaraMay

And he won't even apologize to her....

LittleBook

Curly Judge wrote: »

Paul Carney puts so many high profile scumbags through his hands that it would be surprising if he didn't end in the papers now and then.
However this seems to be a very quixotic and eccentric judgement.
I get the impression it has more to do with a little spat between him and the DPP's office on one hand - and the Court of Criminal Appeal on the other - than the specifics of this case.

Ironically, the only way this makes any sense to me whatsoever is that Carney is using this case to highlight the problems with the Court of Criminal Appeal. Whatever about sentences being suspended, running concurrently, precedents, etc. to allow a convicted rapist to walk free pending appeal is just madness.

Apart from that, this man raped Fiona Doyle for 10 years. She first spoke out about it 23 years ago and her father and mother hounded and harassed her and members of her family turned against her.

And to hear the "mitigating factors" applied to the sentencing of this man ...

- medical condition - which could have been managed in prison
- guilty plea - a quarter of a century late
- the length of time since the offences - yes, because she had to fight for 23 years for justice
- expression of remorse - never expressed to his daughter
- good behaviour/character ... can't even go there :mad:

... it genuinely makes me wonder how any rape victim could consider actually trying to get justice in this country.

It's absolutely sickening. The poor woman, not only did she have to endure a lifetime of abuse, but having the guts to re-live it, to stand up to not just an abuser, but her father. To have the whole world know what she suffered, and for what?

Something needs to be done about these non sentences that we are seeing handed down more and more often. We need to at very least attempt to make a change to this pro abuser system.

mojesius

I wasn't really shocked or surprised when I heard the sentence and that in itself is concerning. It did upset me greatly though.

As a nation, i think we are far too accustomed to the law siding in favour of the criminal when it comes to sentencing. I think a thorough review of sentencing really needs to be undertaken, in light of this case and others before it with a similar outcome.

My heart goes out to that brave, brave woman. It must have been so difficult to find the courage to do this. It must have been so hard for her, hearing the sentencing. I hope she is okay and I think it's so awful that justice has not been served in her case.

That sick bastard should be rotting in jail.

CaraMay

And why did he suspend 9 years of the sentence given 'it was one of the most serious cases of serial rape of a daughter' he has ever come across.

It seems you are allowed rape your daughter but not slap a strangers bum (not right either).

lynski

I did wonder this morning if he had repeatedly raped someone who was not his daughter would he have gotten the same sentence?
Also, if he does not appeal what happens? does he remain free?
How can a sentence be appealed for someone who pleaded guilty? too harsh? should he be allowed to set his own sentence?
This country needs a massive overhaul, If you put a list of all the crazy sentences together from the last few years and took away the country's name most people would think you were talking about some muslim state or a 3rd world country?

IvyTheTerrible

lynski wrote: »

I did wonder this morning if he had repeatedly raped someone who was not his daughter would he have gotten the same sentence?
Also, if he does not appeal what happens? does he remain free?
How can a sentence be appealed for someone who pleaded guilty? too harsh? should he be allowed to set his own sentence?
This country needs a massive overhaul, If you put a list of all the crazy sentences together from the last few years and took away the country's name most people would think you were talking about some muslim state or a 3rd world country?

AFAIK the DPP can appeal the leniency of the sentence.

jammywammy

A child rapist out on bail? This is a clear case of the criminal having more rights than the victim. Hes too sick to go to prison? He should have been asked directly by the judge did he consider his daughters health when he was raping her. There has got to be more to this than is being reported.
Also.....is he not a threat to society? I mean, I wouldnt want to live beside him, have kids out on the street where he lived. What about his grandkids? Dont they need protecting.
Wrong wrong wrong

eviltwin

I've really no words, what planet is Paul Carney living on and why are judges allowed to make judgements like this and not face investigations? I don't understand his age and health being a factor either, what about the health of Fiona Doyle? I can imagine this is a huge set back to her recovery.

lynski

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

AFAIK the DPP can appeal the leniency of the sentence.

So he is a rapist, but he might have too long a sentence? yeah that seems like justice. If he is not appealing the outcome then he should be in jail. He is a rapist.

IvyTheTerrible

lynski wrote: »

So he is a rapist, but he might have too long a sentence? yeah that seems like justice. If he is not appealing the outcome then he should be in jail. He is a rapist.

No what I mean is that the DPP might think the sentence is too short and the prosecution appeals it. So hopefully he will get a longer sentence.

CaraMay

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

. So hopefully he will get a longer sentence.

And actually serve it.....

lynski

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

No what I mean is that the DPP might think the sentence is too short and the prosecution appeals it. So hopefully he will get a longer sentence.

No i understood, what i meant was he is guilty, he admitted he was guilty, so he is a child rapist, a child sexual predator, a woman rapist ( a she was 18 before it ended) and he is free, he is walking around free. unless he disputed the guilty verdict, which he admitted to, then he should not be free. If the sentence is being disputed up or down regardless, he should not be out in the world a danger to other women and children.
A rapist is a rapist and is a danger if they never lay a finger on another person, they can cause mayhem with their attitude, their words and their very presence as a free convicted rapist is damaging.
That judge is an idiot.

LittleBook

mojesius wrote: »

I wasn't really shocked or surprised when I heard the sentence and that in itself is concerning. It did upset me greatly though.

Unfortunately, neither was I, years of reading about sentences being suspended for the thinnest reasons and/or running concurrently has inured me to the sentencing of criminals in Ireland.

lynski wrote: »

Also, if he does not appeal what happens? does he remain free? How can a sentence be appealed for someone who pleaded guilty? too harsh? should he be allowed to set his own sentence?

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

AFAIK the DPP can appeal the leniency of the sentence.

This is what really struck me and is the baffling issue in this case.

The Garlic Man is at risk of becoming the "Godwin" of sentencing discussions but the comparison with this case and the fact that his appeal is due to be decided today has been noted by Newstalk and will be picked up by other media.

He pleaded guilty and made reparations, was jailed for six years and spent the time waiting for his appeal in jail while this man walks ... presumably because of his age and health.

What I don't understand is that I read that Carney "certified the case as fit for appeal" ... so is he presuming there will be an appeal? What did the defence actually ask for?

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

No what I mean is that the DPP might think the sentence is too short and the prosecution appeals it. So hopefully he will get a longer sentence.

That's the case and Carney's aware of it, but why was this man freed pending this appeal?

Morag

Carney does not like the appeals process and does this in my opinion deliberately to cause hassle and hurt.

kat.mac

My heart is absolutely broken for Fiona Doyle. I really don't even know what to say. I hope her support system is robust and she can continue to live her life in spite of the litany of injustice she's had to face.

I am also worried about the effect this will have on other child abuse survivors, who may be going through the process of building up to reporting the crimes against them. And, for that matter, any other victims of sexual crimes. I fear this will have a negative effect on reporting/prosecutions.

aloyisious

I'd agree with what LittleBook and IvyThe terrible posted. I reckon Paul Carney is making the best of a bad lot. He know's that the defence would appeal any severe sentence he imposed, that he has ongoing issues wit the CCA overturning his sentences fairly often, that the media have covered this ongoing argument.

I reckon he worded his sentence so that if it went to the CCA, that court might reverse it as being too lenient in this case and alter/increase it's conditions. The DPP can also make the same argument to the CCA. The man is not in prison, so his sentence cannot be activated and end up with him being releaesed early by the Prison Service, thus preventing any change in the sentence-term.

I assume that the convict is now on the Sexual Offenders list.

R P McMurphy

Morag wrote: »

Carney does not like the appeals process and does this in my opinion deliberately to cause hassle and hurt.

Is very difficult to understand the logic behind his decision. He claimed that to not grant bail would be 'replacing one injustice with another' or words to that effect. Judges should have to provide a lot more detail on the thinking and motivations behind their rulings. If they had to do so it might make them think long and hard prior to the decision making process.

Precious flower

It's just beyond comprehension, that poor woman, her father deserved to rot.:mad: Anyway I already ranted on about in AH so I'll just say it's disgusts me and I feel so sorry for that poor woman.

Whispered

That poor woman. The bravery it must have taken to follow that through for her to be let down again.

Neyite

I got the impression that Carney feared that if he imposed a sentence and didnt permit the accused to be bailed, that upon appeal, the sentence would be reduced and then adjusted to time served, meaning that in a few months the rapist walks free and clear. Certainly the appeals court have form for this. So, by throwing the ball into the appeals court, he is forcing them to impose a proper sentence to ensure time will actually be served behind bars.

I could be way off the mark here, but I sincerely hope this is his reason - certainly the way he described the severe nature of the offences indicates that he took them seriously, and that doesnt match with the sentence handed down.

I feel so sorry for that brave brave lady. What a horrific childhood with no-one to turn to.

clairefontaine

I can't for the life of me understand why there is such light sentencing for child sex offenders in Ireland. My only guess is that the judiciary are in on it. Or the accused are hiring the right barristers who are connected. Otherwise it makes no sense at all.

THey should be careful. This is the kind of thing that gives rise to vigilantism.

beks101

No words really.

I hope the scumbag dies a slow, excruciatingly painful death.

Why was the mother not arrested as some kind of accomplice/accessory to it

clairefontaine

Maybe she didn't know about it.

Maybe her daughter told her but she didnt believe her.

The potential scenarios are numerous and conjecture is pointless without the facts.

Unless she colluded with the father she is not legally accountable.

reprazant

She called her daughter 'your fathers whore'.

She knew about it alright which, IMO, makes her nearly much as bad.

Shocking stuff.

charlemont

A true example of how females get a raw deal in our justice system, Clairefontaine You are bang-on, Its very fishy. Too fishy, A lot of these older people in the justice system would have been starting off in the days when abuse was rife in institutions, Something is not right there..

Yes, I was basing my comment on that "father's whore" bit, though I can't quite see from the article that it was definitely the mother saying it. I thought it was.

clairefontaine

reprazant wrote: »

She called her daughter 'your fathers whore'.

She knew about it alright which, IMO, makes her nearly much as bad.

Shocking stuff.

Oh wow I had no idea. Oh god that is sick

Edit: Looking at the article again, it does not attribute that quote to her mother or to anyone in particular.

RhubarbCrumble

Absolute and utter disgrace. That poor lady. She went through 10 years of abuse and was so brave to speak out about it and waive her right to anonymity, and this is the result?

In my opinion, her mother is no better than her father either. I don't know if she knew about the abuse at the time or not (though it would appear that she did) however, she certainly knows now and is still supporting her husband.

The Irish justice system is a disgrace.

JP Liz V1

Disgraceful :mad:

R P McMurphy

Neyite wrote: »

I got the impression that Carney feared that if he imposed a sentence and didnt permit the accused to be bailed, that upon appeal, the sentence would be reduced and then adjusted to time served, meaning that in a few months the rapist walks free and clear. Certainly the appeals court have form for this. So, by throwing the ball into the appeals court, he is forcing them to impose a proper sentence to ensure time will actually be served behind bars.

I could be way off the mark here, but I sincerely hope this is his reason - certainly the way he described the severe nature of the offences indicates that he took them seriously, and that doesnt match with the sentence handed down.

I feel so sorry for that brave brave lady. What a horrific childhood with no-one to turn to.

That actually does make sense and is not something I had considered. If it is the case and the rationale behind the judgment then it is a sad indictment of our justice system. Ibstill dont get his replacing one injustice with another although I could be taking it out of context as I had only heard bits of it

CaraMay

Fingers crossed he gets an appropriate sentence tomorrow!!

Morag

It's horrendus, under law rape victims have anonymity but the first time one broke that was Lavina Kerwick,
she did because her rapist who had been convicted of raping her had his sentence suspended.

That was 21 years ago and judges are still doing the same thing. No progress made,
any of the reports which were created have been ignored.

The sooner Judge Carey retires be it cos he wants to or is pushed the better.

Wibbs

Morag wrote: »

The sooner Judge Carey retires be it cos he wants to or is pushed the better.

Indeed M but he's nowhere near alone in being "interesting" regarding what is described as "judgement". I'd do an oul Google on a judge Martin Nolan for further shíts and giggles too. This guff would have you tearing your hair out and screaming at the sky and if you wrote it in a film script it wouldn't be plausible. Now I'm sure you'll have people, learned no doubt going on about legal procedure and that's fine, I don't want mob rule, mainly because the mob tends to be moronic, but there's a large wheelbarrow of WTF about cases like these ending up with sentencing that even the most daft would cry foul on. Ditto for murder cases.

clairefontaine

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed M but he's nowhere near alone in being "interesting" regarding what is described as "judgement". I'd do an oul Google on a judge Martin Nolan for further shíts and giggles too. This guff would have you tearing your hair out and screaming at the sky and if you wrote it in a film script it wouldn't be plausible. Now I'm sure you'll have people, learned no doubt going on about legal procedure and that's fine, I don't want mob rule, mainly because the mob tends to be moronic, but there's a large wheelbarrow of WTF about cases like these ending up with sentencing that even the most daft would cry foul on. Ditto for murder cases.

The mob is moronic but when justice fails so badly and so often when it comes to sex abuse, you will see people who stop reporting and start taking their own action. I'm pretty certain you will see a rise in vigilantism. Judges and lawyers know this, so who exactly are the morons?

There is a lot of pain you have to go through when you report a rape or repeated rape or for that of your child, to go through that, to get a confession, etc, and then for them to walk free. What the hell is the point? There are people who would be willing to do time to see justice served.

astrofool

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed M but he's nowhere near alone in being "interesting" regarding what is described as "judgement". I'd do an oul Google on a judge Martin Nolan for further shíts and giggles too. This guff would have you tearing your hair out and screaming at the sky and if you wrote it in a film script it wouldn't be plausible. Now I'm sure you'll have people, learned no doubt going on about legal procedure and that's fine, I don't want mob rule, mainly because the mob tends to be moronic, but there's a large wheelbarrow of WTF about cases like these ending up with sentencing that even the most daft would cry foul on. Ditto for murder cases.

I'd begin to wonder who would serve on a jury with either of these two judges presiding, knowing that whatever decision they, the people, decided, would be shát upon by the judge.

aloyisious

I read in today's papers that there will be two protests over the next few days about the sentence, one of which will take place in Bray on Sat. I'd wait and see the outcome of the Bray one as the man convicted lives in Bray, so as to see if mob rule is applied. I wait to see what the judge applies in relation to other matters in the case (I suppose it's further charges related to the case).

irishtimes.com - Last Updated: Thursday, January 24, 2013, 09:46
DPP due in court over rapist bail

Facebook: Justice for Fiona Doyle

CONOR LALLY, Crime Correspondent and JOANNE HUNT

The Director of Public Prosecutions is expected to make an application at the Central Criminal Court this morning to have the bail of Patrick O’Brien – who was convicted of raping his daughter Fiona Doyle over a 10-year period – rescinded.

The decision of Mr Justice Paul Carney on Monday to sentence the 72-year-old to 12 years, with nine suspended, and then grant O’Brien bail pending an appeal, provoked strong reaction. When imposing the sentence, Mr Justice Carney noted the defendant’s poor health.

O’Brien was charged with 16 sample offences; eight of rape and eight of indecent assault. In cases where sample charges are considered by the court, the remaining charges must be dealt with after a trial.

When today’s proceedings are completed, The Irish Times understands O’Brien’s legal team intends to appeal what he sees as the severity of his sentence and the DPP intends to appeal what she sees as the undue leniency of the sentence.

That issue is normally regarded as a legal formality during which a representative of the DPP’s office informs the judge that the charges are not being proceeded with. That matter is due before Mr Justice Carney today at 11am.

The DPP is expected to use the opportunity to apply to have O’Brien’s bail rescinded. The Irish Times understands the DPP will challenge the jurisdiction of Mr Justice Carney to grant bail.

The DPP is expected to argue that post-conviction bail could only be considered by the Court of Criminal Appeal and only after the convicted person had initiated an appeals process, which has not yet happened.

The DPP is also expected to argue that bail should only be granted by the Court of Criminal Appeal in cases where that court determined there might be grounds for an appeal and also a prospect that it might be successful.

The legal principles were laid down by the Supreme Court in the case of DPP v Corbally in 2000. It upheld a decision of the Court of Criminal Appeal to refuse bail to a man convicted of firearms offences.

O’Brien, of Old Court Avenue, Bray, Co Wicklow, pleaded guilty to 16 charges of the rape and indecent assault of his daughter, Fiona Doyle, at Mackintosh Park, Pottery Road, Dún Laoghaire, from 1973 to 1982.

Death and Taxes

Thankfully the DPP has acted swiftly and is in court this morning appartently attempting to have bail revoked.
I think it is shocking that Fiona Doyle has been used in a petty ongoing battle between Mr Justice Carney and the Court of Criminal Appeal, they need to get there act together fast and stop this farcical squabbling!

Wibbs

TBH AF if I was called for jury duty and either of those names came up I'd be exploring legal ways - if such exist - of not serving on any jury where they were judges.