Leap card over-charging on Dublin Bus express

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

They could ask the Busdriver...?

What is the point in going out of your way in getting a leap card when it presents nothing but hassle for you in your day to day bus use?

If not a complete withdrawl it should be withdrawn on dublin bus until they are compatible with each other and driver interaction is cut down to only when a card is rejected by the validator!


http://www.nationaltransport.ie/publ...egrated-fares/

Integrated Fares

The National Transport Authority has now launched the Leap Card. In its initial stages, this ‘smart card’ will enable transport users to pay fares, electronically across all public transport providers in the Greater Dublin Area.

It is the ambition of the Authority to ensure that fares are simplified across all modes and that fares do not penalise those passengers who change services in their journey. In the Authority’s Draft Transport Strategy 2011-2030 Measure INT 3 states:

Passengers are already being penalised for changing from one bus to another with the massive hike in the cost of the travel90 tickets so the NTA has Failed again even before they begin!

bk

devnull wrote: »

Charging per KM is not going to work as that is going to make many multiple fare levels, even more than there is now, for example some routes are going to be between 1km and 15km, do you then have 15 fares to cover this? Passengers then have to work out how far there is between bus stops, which many are not going to know, and tourists are going to be confused as hell. Then how does the bus driver work things out? There would be even more variables than stages which is what we need to get away from.

No it is actually a quiet simple and very fair and flexible system. However it would require tag-off on the bus to work. Here is how it works in Amsterdam:

- You tag-on the bus, the maximum fare of €4 is deducted
- You tag-off the bus when getting off the bus the difference between the fare and €4 is returned (same as dart and luas works).
- The fare is calculated as:
1) a Flat fare of 86c plus
2) 14c per km travelled.

The number of km you travel is calculated when you tag-off. No driver interaction is required (the whole point of this is too eliminate driver interaction).

- If you tag-on another bas/tram/metro within 35 minutes of tagging off, your not charged the flat fee of 86c again, just the 14c per km. This promotes multi-modal travel.

- The per km charge is actually different depending on mode of transport, so 14c for bus, 15c for tram, 16c for metro, etc. to reflect different running costs.

IMO this is pretty much the best fare system possible. It is very fair as you pay for how far you travelled in a very transparent way. They can have different per km fares to reflect different running costs. You could even charge different per km fares based on time (e.g. higher rate for nitelink, lower rate off-peak, etc.).

Cash fares would need to be set at a high flat fare e.g. €3 (it is €2.80 in Amsterdam), obviously this system doesn't work with cash fares.

This system works very well in Amsterdam.

foggy_lad

Would tagging on/off work with our bastardised card? Unlike other cards it must not be swiped but MUST be held against the reader for a time to work.

devnull

bk wrote: »

No it is actually a quiet simple system.

Simple is not the way I would call it, it's nearly impossible to work out what a fare would cost before you travel, because of the fact that how many people are going to know the distance between where they get on and they get off? Do you really think people are going to check online for this information. It's simply not going to happen.

1) a Flat fare of 86c plus
2) 14c per km travelled.

So if I asked you to work out about ten journeys all without looking at Google, any mapping system or any online resource, how much would they be you would be able to come up with an exact answer?

You wouldn't be able to work it out unless you had knowledge of the particular area, which makes it impossible for the average dog on the street to work out how much their fare is going to cost, a basic test of a fare system is one where you can simply understand how much it will be without having to do too much research.

The current Dublin Bus system fails because of the fact nobody knows how much a stage is. Still that means 5 fare levels which is too many by most peoples view. By adding this new system in you are creating even more fare levels.

The per km charge is actually different depending on mode of transport, so 14c for bus, 15c for tram, 16c for metro, etc. to reflect different running costs.

They can have different per km fares to reflect different running costs. You could even charge different per km fares based on time (e.g. higher rate for nitelink, lower rate off-peak, etc.).

So you create yet more different fares for different types of journeys, how is the average person going to work out such fares when there are so many different permutations to consider. Remember that the vast majority of bus passengers are not going to know this and are simply going to get on the bus and try and travel and not look up beforehand.

As I said the main problem is you argue that the current Dublin Bus Fare system is too complicated, I agree that it is, but the new system you propose will create hundreds of different fare prices depending on when you are travelling, how far and what type of mode you are in, this then creates much more variables than the current system which you claim is too complicated.

Cash fares would need to be set at a high flat fare e.g. €3 (it is €2.80 in Amsterdam), obviously this system doesn't work with cash fares.

About the only point on your post I can agree with.

devnull

foggy_lad wrote: »

Would tagging on/off work with our bastardised card? Unlike other cards it must not be swiped but MUST be held against the reader for a time to work.

Seriously would you stop posting such things you know nothing about. I don't know of any smartcard system that works the way you mention but of course you know best.

Smart cards in virtually every city I've been in are held against the reader, it's the same with Oyster and always has been but again lets not mention that as it does not suit your agenda.

bk

Devnull I really don't see it being an issue. It certainly isn't in Amsterdam, a city with superb public transport and where this sort of system is a success.

For people who take the same journey every day, it isn't an issue, as they will know the fare anyway, it would always be the same.

For those taking an unusual journey, they will likely look up the Dublin Bus or NTA journey planner anyway to figure out what buses they need to take and these journey planners can then tell them the fare (this is the major missing element from our journey planners, I don't understand why they don't tell you the number of stages).

And to be honest it isn't all that important. The reason the current stage system is so confusing is because we actually expect passengers to know the fare before hand, have exact change and tell the driver the fare. With almost no way for the passenger to know this!

With this system all that confusion is gone, you don't need to know your fare, the correct fare will be automatically taken. It will be an amount between €1 and €2.50 (in Amsterdam) depending on how far you travel. The longer you go, the more you pay, pretty simple.

I really doubt many people will go, oh the journey will cost €2, I won't take it so! No what pisses people off about the DB system is that they are expected to know the price up front, with zero help from DB.

Mrs OBumble

AlekSmart wrote: »

They could ask the Busdriver...?

Nah, it'll never catch on.

KD345

bk wrote: »

No it is actually a quiet simple and very fair and flexible system. However it would require tag-off on the bus to work. Here is how it works in Amsterdam:

- You tag-on the bus, the maximum fare of €4 is deducted
- You tag-off the bus when getting off the bus the difference between the fare and €4 is returned (same as dart and luas works).
- The fare is calculated as:
1) a Flat fare of 86c plus
2) 14c per km travelled.

The number of km you travel is calculated when you tag-off. No driver interaction is required (the whole point of this is too eliminate driver interaction).

- If you tag-on another bas/tram/metro within 35 minutes of tagging off, your not charged the flat fee of 86c again, just the 14c per km. This promotes multi-modal travel.

- The per km charge is actually different depending on mode of transport, so 14c for bus, 15c for tram, 16c for metro, etc. to reflect different running costs.

IMO this is pretty much the best fare system possible. It is very fair as you pay for how far you travelled in a very transparent way. They can have different per km fares to reflect different running costs. You could even charge different per km fares based on time (e.g. higher rate for nitelink, lower rate off-peak, etc.).

Cash fares would need to be set at a high flat fare e.g. €3 (it is €2.80 in Amsterdam), obviously this system doesn't work with cash fares.

This system works very well in Amsterdam.

That sounds similar to how a taxi meter works. There is a base fare and you then pay per km traveled. There is some merit to this proposal, but the only problem I can see is that depending on the bus route you choose, it might not take the most direct journey. For example, how would the system take into account two routes such as the 65B and 77A. Both leave from Citywest, but the 77A takes a tour of Tallaght compared to the 65B which is more direct. Would that not upset the fairness of paying per km? If I was in a taxi which decided to do a loop of, for example, Beaumont Hospital each way, I'd be pretty annoyed having to cough up for it.

I think Devnull makes a good point about calculating fares. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to know the cost of your journey before you begin.

Personally, I would prefer a zone system. A city centre zone inside the canal belt, a suburban zone between the canal and the M50, and a third outer suburban zone for routes beyond the M50. There could be a further zone for places beyond Bray/Swords etc. The fare is then calculated on how many zones you travel in. It's simple and familiar to the majority of passengers.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

.

The current Dublin Bus system fails because of the fact nobody knows how much a stage is. Still that means 5 fare levels which is too many by most peoples view. By adding this new system in you are creating even more fare levels.


Remember that the vast majority of bus passengers are not going to know this and are simply going to get on the bus and try and travel and not look up beforehand.

As I said the main problem is you argue that the current Dublin Bus Fare system is too complicated, I agree that it is, but the new system you propose will create hundreds of different fare prices depending on when you are travelling, how far and what type of mode you are in, this then creates much more variables than the current system which you claim is too complicated.

The current BAC Fare-Stage system is,in fact,a very flexible and easily understood system for Cash Fare payment,BUT only if the Individual Fare Stages are clearly identified on-street for both customers and staff to see.

It completely defies my understanding why Dublin Bus very comprehensively obliterated ALL ON-STREET FARE-STAGE MARKINGS.

This decision effectively rendered the Fare-Stage system inoperable for the vast majority of customers,not to mention a significant number of Bus Staff also.

( It also,In my opinion,renders a fare-evasion prosecution quite likely to fail,should a defence of be offered,that the Company,by removing the Fare-Stage Markings,was effectively abandoning the operation and monitoring of the system)

The NTA should IMMEDIATELY Instruct (Not request) to reapply all Fare-Stage Markings.

This simple and low-cost expedient alone,would improve the commute for huge numbers of customers along with making the working day a LOT less stressful for Busdrivers !

This is surely worth a Facebook Campaign or a Twitterfest or some mass media campaign ?? :rolleyes:

schemingbohemia

AlekSmart wrote: »

The current BAC Fare-Stage system is,in fact,a very flexible and easily understood system for Cash Fare payment,BUT only if the Individual Fare Stages are clearly identified on-street for both customers and staff to see.

It completely defies my understanding why Dublin Bus very comprehensively obliterated ALL ON-STREET FARE-STAGE MARKINGS.

This decision effectively rendered the Fare-Stage system inoperable for the vast majority of customers,not to mention a significant number of Bus Staff also.

( It also,In my opinion,renders a fare-evasion prosecution quite likely to fail,should a defence of be offered,that the Company,by removing the Fare-Stage Markings,was effectively abandoning the operation and monitoring of the system)

The NTA should IMMEDIATELY Instruct (Not request) to reapply all Fare-Stage Markings.

This simple and low-cost expedient alone,would improve the commute for huge numbers of customers along with making the working day a LOT less stressful for Busdrivers !

This is surely worth a Facebook Campaign or a Twitterfest or some mass media campaign ?? :rolleyes:

Whilst I agree with Fare-Stage Markings, how would this actually happen? Would each stop not need a number of stages depending on each route that serves that stop? Or am I misinterpreting it?

bk

The issue with a zonal system is that it would still require driver interaction for Leap (tell him/her how many ones you are travelling). Which defeats the whole purpose of Leap card.

devnull

Why would it? Surely the validator would work that out based on the zone you tag on in and the zone you tag off in by looking up the stops the zones are in and then calculating the fare based on that.

Surely that is similar to how the per km system works, where the validator looks at a list of stops, works out the distance between where you tag on and tag off from the list, and then calculates the fare.

noelfirl

The technical limitation posed by most of the fleet only having one door (and indeed the insanely slim doors on the VTs) is, IMO a significant issue posed to any system that requires tag on and tag off. The rebuttal may be, that with no actual driver interaction, there'll be a straightforward stream of people getting of the bus first, then a stream getting on and this will result in reduced dwell time. I'd love to believe that, but observation of the behaviour of people at bus stops "queuing", getting on and getting off lead me to think the gains in dwell time would be minimal.

If we had the previous An Lárist network in place, where people were (mainly) picked up in dribs and drabs in the suburbs and then chucked out en masse in the city centre (and vice versa) then it might run relatively efficiently. With the current system of heavily used cross-city routes that pick up, set down, pick up going through the city centre, there would, in my mind not be substantially reduced dwell times. I say that as a daily passenger of Nassau St., where the 46a and 145 take time to dump their inbound passengers before being able to take on more. I'd imagine the same may apply to the other super routes in the rest of the city centre area.

I'd also be inclined to agree with devnull that people like to have an idea of the fare they are paying, and although that is a behavioral aspect that might change over time, I can see people pausing as they tag off to check their balance, and inquiring from the driver before tagging on what sort of fare they're going to incur.

A flat fare sounds nice, but a single one is going to be fundamentally unfair to some sections of the population - people living in Balbriggan, Kildare and North Wicklow paying the same as those only going from city to within the M50 isn't exactly brilliant in my mind. Again, maybe if the routes were organised to give proper, limited stopping, more expensive Xpresso services, then it might work.

Personally, I think a simple zonal system like KD345 would be best, but I would see if it could be combined with tag-on, tag-off. Completely hypothetical, but say a flat maximum fare is taken at tag-on in zone A, but if you tag-off again within zone A or zone B, part of the fare is returned. If you continue all the way out to zone C or zone D, no fare is returned, even if you tag-off. This would reduce the number of passengers required to tag-off (those travelling longer distances) while giving some element of fare equality to those taking shorter journeys. The RTPI poles could also be possibly equipped with panels for off-bus tag-off at busy stops. Now whether the Wayfarer and validators could handle this, is another question altogether, as it would require them to recognise defined zones and quickly figure out whether a return is due at tag-off.

Honestly, as the easiest thing to do, I personally see them simplifying the fare system to less fare bands, but I can imagine they'll retain at least an upper and lower band, so I doubt a complete move away from talking to the driver will happen too soon.

bk

Aha, zone system in conjunction with tag-on/tag-off. Sure that is fine then it would work.

Frankly even the existing fare structure could work if it was combined with tag-on/tag-off.

What both systems lack is nice multi-modal integration.

Polar101

KD345 wrote: »

Personally, I would prefer a zone system. A city centre zone inside the canal belt, a suburban zone between the canal and the M50, and a third outer suburban zone for routes beyond the M50. There could be a further zone for places beyond Bray/Swords etc. The fare is then calculated on how many zones you travel in. It's simple and familiar to the majority of passengers.

Maybe, but wouldn't that be the same as the current stage system - with the exception that people might actually know where the different stages are?

I'd imagine for most commuters it doesn't really matter what the system is, just as long there's a good daily/weekly/monthly/annual option available. I don't personally like tag on/tag off at all - I don't use the train or luas very often so I've no idea on what the actual fares (that get deducted off the leap card) are.

Julius Seizure

RE driver interaction, in some trams in belgium the validator has a keypad that you hit in the zone while validating. Big, bright buttons

bk

Dubhaltach wrote: »

RE driver interaction, in some trams in belgium the validator has a keypad that you hit in the zone while validating. Big, bright buttons

Sounds slow if used on a single door bus. Can understand using it on a train, once you have already boarded.

Carawaystick

As I understand the leap and expresso issue:
If I get the 33x in the evening, I tag the rhs validator, and have no dealings with the driver,but if I stay in Dublin late, and get a 33, I should do the opposite and have to interact with the driver and tag the dodgy lhs validator, even though in both cases I'm going to the same place?

And this was decided recently, on purpose?
not grandfathered in following some arcane tram routes?

AlekSmart

Carawaystick wrote: »

As I understand the leap and expresso issue.......
..................And this was decided recently, on purpose?
not grandfathered in following some arcane tram routes?

WEll,not exactly recently......12 years ago,and €40 million ago,the Government directed the NTA to embark upon a comprehensive Integrated Ticketing process and this is what resulted.....Is there a problem :rolleyes: ?