Leap card over-charging on Dublin Bus express

a_ominous

SWMBO has her Leap card for a while. Uses it every month or so on Luas and Dublin Bus. Today when she used it on Dublin Bus, taking an express bus, terminus to terminus at 6pm, she was charged 4.00 euro, the fare for Nitelink. She spoke to driver on getting off the bus and he said one or two other people had mentioned it. Fare is supposed to be 2.90.
And of course, to get the over-charge refunded, you have to traipse into O'Connell Street. Why can't this be done on-line? Are they going to refund cash?

KD345

a_ominous wrote: »

SWMBO has her Leap card for a while. Uses it every month or so on Luas and Dublin Bus. Today when she used it on Dublin Bus, taking an express bus, terminus to terminus at 6pm, she was charged 4.00 euro, the fare for Nitelink. She spoke to driver on getting off the bus and he said one or two other people had mentioned it. Fare is supposed to be 2.90.
And of course, to get the over-charge refunded, you have to traipse into O'Connell Street. Why can't this be done on-line? Are they going to refund cash?

They were not overcharged. That is the correct fare. Traveling 2 zones on an Xpresso route is €4.00 with the Leap Card.

Also, the Nitelink Leap Card fare is €5.

noelfirl

KD345 wrote: »

Traveling 2 zones on an Xpresso route is €4.00 with the Leap Card.

I would have thought that too, but looking online at the Xpresso timetables, not all of them appear to have zonal fares anymore - some only list a single flat fare at the bottom, possibly the person was on one of those routes...

a_ominous

KD345 wrote: »

They were not overcharged. That is the correct fare. Traveling 2 zones on an Xpresso route is €4.00 with the Leap Card.

Also, the Nitelink Leap Card fare is €5.

I stand corrected; SWMBO said driver told her the 4 yoyos was nitelink fare. Just checked the current nitelink fares and it's a flat rate 5.70

noelfirl wrote: »

I would have thought that too, but looking online at the Xpresso timetables, not all of them appear to have zonal fares anymore - some only list a single flat fare at the bottom, possibly the person was on one of those routes...

Leap fare is listed on expresso timetable as 2.90.

KD345

Do we know what route the OP is querying?

KD345

a_ominous wrote: »

I stand corrected; SWMBO said driver told her the 4 yoyos was nitelink fare. Just checked the current nitelink fares and it's a flat rate 5.70




Leap fare is listed on expresso timetable as 2.90.

Do you know how she validated her ticket? If it was with the driver then she should have stated the fare, but if she used the validator to the right it will automatically deduct the full Xpresso fare of €4.

monument

a_ominous wrote: »

Just checked the current nitelink fares and it's a flat rate 5.70

It's €5 with Leap.

LXFlyer

What route was it?

Dravokivich

AFAIK, the validators by the doors are set to the maximum fare for the service type the bus is set up to, not the route.

AlekSmart

Dravokivich wrote: »

AFAIK, the validators by the doors are set to the maximum fare for the service type the bus is set up to, not the route.

Well spotted that man !!!!

Sadly,until the NTA get their act together regarding which form of Fare Structure they will fund we shall have to endure situations such as the PO's SWMBO...:o

Tarabuses

Dravokivich wrote: »

AFAIK, the validators by the doors are set to the maximum fare for the service type the bus is set up to, not the route.

So the validators are useless on certain routes? Surely if they are not appropriate for the route they should be closed off?

Dravokivich

Tarabuses wrote: »

So the validators are useless on certain routes? Surely if they are not appropriate for the route they should be closed off?

I think the idea was, that for people doing the full distance, they didn't need to interact with the driver, with the expectation that this would be the most used fare by leap card users, even though they were meant to be targetting it for casual short distance commuters.

TheChrisD

KD345 wrote: »

Do we know what route the OP is querying?

Not yet. If the route was the 33X, 66X, 67X or 84X, then the correct charge was taken by the validator (only four routes with 2 zones); otherwise they were overcharged.

a_ominous

TheChrisD wrote: »

Not yet. If the route was the 33X, 66X, 67X or 84X, then the correct charge was taken by the validator (only four routes with 2 zones); otherwise they were overcharged.

Wasn't any of those, so SWMBO was overcharged. She used validator, so in future, she's not going to use them but go to driver and use card that way to avoid getting ripped. It'll slow things down, but if DB can't get system set up right, so be it.

KD345

a_ominous wrote: »

Wasn't any of those, so SWMBO was overcharged. She used validator, so in future, she's not going to use them but go to driver and use card that way to avoid getting ripped. It'll slow things down, but if DB can't get system set up right, so be it.

From the Dublin Bus website:

When using the Leap Card to travel on Xpressos
Travel within one zone
Please pay at the Drivers Ticket Machine* as follows:
1. Hold your Leap Card to the target on the driver’s ticket
Machine.
2. Tell the driver your destination.
3. The correct fare will be deducted from your Travel Credit.
* If you pay using the Validator you will be charged the higher value flat fare of €4.00

LXFlyer

Why all the secrecy about the route number??

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

Why all the secrecy about the route number??

The route number is irrelevant really,as the remote Smart Card Reader will apply the maximum Xpresso €4 fare irrespective of the actual route.

It's far from ideal,but that's the price we are paying for a less than well thought out half-hearted Integrated Ticketing Product.

That said,it has to be pointed out that the actual overcharging was done by the customer themselves...the driver had no role in this,and the instructions on the Expresso page are clear enough ....

When using the Leap Card to travel on Xpressos
Travel within one zone
Please pay at the Drivers Ticket Machine* as follows:
1. Hold your Leap Card to the target on the driver’s ticket
Machine.
2. Tell the driver your destination.
3. The correct fare will be deducted from your Travel Credit.
* If you pay using the Validator you will be charged the higher value flat fare of €4.00

Tarabuses

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think the idea was, that for people doing the full distance, they didn't need to interact with the driver, with the expectation that this would be the most used fare by leap card users, even though they were meant to be targetting it for casual short distance commuters.

Yes, but it seems that on certain routes a passenger travelling the full distance will be overchasrged by the validator.

AlekSmart

Tarabuses wrote: »

Yes, but it seems that on certain routes a passenger travelling the full distance will be overcharged by the validator.

True,if the passenger chooses to use the remote validator.

_Kaiser_

KD345 wrote: »

From the Dublin Bus website:

When using the Leap Card to travel on Xpressos
Travel within one zone
Please pay at the Drivers Ticket Machine* as follows:
1. Hold your Leap Card to the target on the driver’s ticket
Machine.
2. Tell the driver your destination.
3. The correct fare will be deducted from your Travel Credit.
* If you pay using the Validator you will be charged the higher value flat fare of €4.00

Now just as an outside point of view, this says it all to me about Leap and it's ongoing problems.

Might as well just say "Shure just go to the driver coz we can't set this new thing up right so you'll just get ripped off - technology eh? :rolleyes:"

Side note: €5.70 for a Nitelink these days??! :eek:

KD345

Tarabuses wrote: »

Yes, but it seems that on certain routes a passenger travelling the full distance will be overchasrged by the validator.

It really depends on the bus route you're using. On outer suburban routes (33, 33a, 65, 84 and 184) the right hand validator will not charge the highest fare, you must ask the driver instead.

While it is confusing, the Dublin Bus website does go into great detail explaining how best to use the Leap Card.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

It's also worth mentioning Dublin Bus is working on a simplified fare structure which will hopefully eliminate many of these problems.

foggy_lad

KD345 wrote: »

It really depends on the bus route you're using. On outer suburban routes (33, 33a, 65, 84 and 184) the right hand validator will not charge the highest fare, you must ask the driver instead.

While it is confusing, the Dublin Bus website does go into great detail explaining how best to use the Leap Card.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

It's also worth mentioning Dublin Bus is working on a simplified fare structure which will hopefully eliminate many of these problems.

What do passengers do if they have no pc or smartphone and have never been to the dublin bus website?

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

What do passengers do if they have no pc or smartphone and have never been to the dublin bus website?

They could ask the Busdriver...?

AlekSmart

KD345 wrote: »

It really depends on the bus route you're using. On outer suburban routes (33, 33a, 65, 84 and 184) the right hand validator will not charge the highest fare, you must ask the driver instead.

While it is confusing, the Dublin Bus website does go into great detail explaining how best to use the Leap Card.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

It's also worth mentioning Dublin Bus is working on a simplified fare structure which will hopefully eliminate many of these problems.

It's also of some importance on such long-haul routes to note the following...

When using your Leap Card to pay for an Adult Outer Suburban 2 Fare or a Child Outer Suburban 1 and 2 Fare:
Please pay at the Drivers Ticket Machine* as follows:
1. Hold your Leap Card to the target on the driver’s ticket machine, as shown
here
2. Tell the driver your destination.
3. The correct fare will be deducted from your Travel Credit.
* If you pay using the Validator you will underpay and not have a valid ticket for travel and inspection.

The New,Improved (and previously denied) simplified Fare Structure cannot vome soon enough !!

stop

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's also of some importance on such long-haul routes to note the following...



The New,Improved (and previously denied) simplified Fare Structure cannot vome soon enough !!

So the system is set up for two types of routes - xpresso and regular.
Why didn't they make other categories for single zone xpresso outer suburban, flat fare etc?

Dravokivich

Tarabuses wrote: »

Yes, but it seems that on certain routes a passenger travelling the full distance will be overchasrged by the validator.

Whooops, must of glazed over the tail end of your earlier post. There are still tickets avail to purchase that would need to use that validator. It's not solely for the leap card.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's also of some importance on such long-haul routes to note the following...

The New,Improved (and previously denied) simplified Fare Structure cannot vome soon enough !!

Wow, now that I didn't see before. they really did spend too much time trying to simplify their slogans that they've forgotten what they need to tell their user base.

stop wrote: »

So the system is set up for two types of routes - xpresso and regular.
Why didn't they make other categories for single zone xpresso outer suburban, flat fare etc?

There's other services such as the nightlink and from Heuston to the airport that have their own fares on the door validator as well.

foggy_lad wrote: »

What do passengers do if they have no pc or smartphone and have never been to the dublin bus website?

To be frank, I have a smartphone and PC and wouldn't of had the gist of this stuff if I wasn't a regular commuter. Tragically, that's not who the leap card is meant to be aimed at. Another simpler way to tell people how to use the card needs to be brought forward without attempts to be quirky. But I think they might be hedging their bets on what ever comes out of auto-topup, capping and whatever tickets that can be loaded onto the card. As in making the use of ePurse redundant.

LXFlyer

The fares system in Dublin needs a complete overhaul and the NTA have recognised this, with the following quote appearing in the recent fare determination report:

Beyond 2013, Dublin Bus is planning to move to a simplified fares structure, however, this is beyond the scope of the current determination

And also from the NTA site, the following on integrated fares, which gets to the real nub of the problem in the final paragraph:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/fares/integrated-fares/

Integrated Fares

The National Transport Authority has now launched the Leap Card. In its initial stages, this ‘smart card’ will enable transport users to pay fares, electronically across all public transport providers in the Greater Dublin Area.

It is the ambition of the Authority to ensure that fares are simplified across all modes and that fares do not penalise those passengers who change services in their journey. In the Authority’s Draft Transport Strategy 2011-2030 Measure INT 3 states:

“The Authority will implement a simplified fares system for the Greater Dublin Area, covering bus, rail, LUAS and Metro services, and will develop a fare arrangement within the Metropolitan Area that facilitates multi-leg and multi-modal journeys”

The mechanisms to achieve the Authority’s strategy include flat fares, fare capping (by time or distance), fare rebates and zonal fares.

The Authority is currently examining the feasibility of introducing single operator daily and weekly capping at an early stage. This would mean that there would be a maximum charge per day or week for the journeys done with one public transport operator. The next phase would be to introduce a cap across all operators for daily and weekly journeys. A fare rebate is where the public transport customer pays a reduced amount for second or multiple journeys within a particular time frame. The feasibility of introducing this fare on a single and multi-operator basis is also being examined.

Zonal fares schemes are most successful where the public transport customer tags on and off to complete their journey such as with Irish Rail and LUAS. However Dublin Bus does not operate a tag off on their smartcards so there is no way of knowing the length of the journey in order to apply a zonal fare. In some cities a flat fare on buses can accompany a zonal fare on other operators.

While the ambition of the Authority is stated above, it is important to note the financially constrained environment in which we are currently operating. Further integrated fares measures must be introduced without resulting in the overall revenue from fares being reduced. The key benefit of the introduction of the Leap Card is that it provides the platform to introduce any of these integrated fare schemes in the future.

The fundamental issue that has prevented this happening is one of funding. The bottom line is that to introduce a simplified fare structure, the new structure must maintain fare box revenues, as that is what the operators require to run the business. It's very easy to say "we should have a flat fare", but if that has a negative impact on fare box revenues then that is a serious issue, as government is not going to bridge it. This is evidenced by the fact that the operators had to bear the costs of operating LEAP, which is costing DB over €2m extra to do.

Either way it is plain daft that validators are set up this way. It has to be possible for the validators to be set up to cope with a lower fare where the €4 fare does not apply.

bk

No, no not fecking zonal fares.

Zonal fares will do nothing to solve the issue on Dublin Bus. With zonal fares you will still need to interact with the driver to tell him how far you are going.

DB needs to either be flat fare or tag-on/tag-off, ideally charged per km like in Amsterdam.

Are the NTA really going to get this so wrong again!

stop

Is there any chance that when auto stage updating is implemeted, that auto max fare for the rhs validator may come with it?

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

No, no not fecking zonal fares.

Zonal fares will do nothing to solve the issue on Dublin Bus. With zonal fares you will still need to interact with the driver to tell him how far you are going.

DB needs to either be flat fare or tag-on/tag-off, ideally charged per km like in Amsterdam.

Are the NTA really going to get this so wrong again!

Read it again - it does not say that they are implementing zonal fares, it says that that is one of the options under consideration, along with flat fares.

As I said there are two main issues to resolve here:
1) Funding - Farebox revenue has to be maintained
2) Simplification - The system needs to be simple and easy to understand

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

Either way it is plain daft that validators are set up this way. It has to be possible for the validators to be set up to cope with a lower fare where the €4 fare does not apply.

From a friend who uses one of the routes that have two zones, they were told the validator was set up to deduct two zones automatically because of a fear of fare evasion from DB. EG, if you made it one zone, people travelling through two could just scan their ticket there and pay a lower fare than required, which is the same reason you can only pay the furthermost fare on the validator on regular routes.

However as AlekSmart points out, that is not the case on the Outer Suburban fares where the validator does not take the furthermost fare charge and instead takes a lower one, so perhaps it might be wrong what the friend was told.

Charging per KM is not going to work as that is going to make many multiple fare levels, even more than there is now, for example some routes are going to be between 1km and 15km, do you then have 15 fares to cover this? Passengers then have to work out how far there is between bus stops, which many are not going to know, and tourists are going to be confused as hell. Then how does the bus driver work things out? There would be even more variables than stages which is what we need to get away from.

Whilst I see where the companies are coming from regarding farebox revenue being maintained, they also need to consider as well that if they make the system more friendly could likely attract new business and more regular custom from their existing customers also.