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If Britain do leave the EU, would you move to the UK?

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    #122
    schnitzelEater
    Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭schnitzelEater


    Yes, I've had enough of the Eurocrats deciding which bananas I can eat.


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    #123
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Spike the water supply with contraceptives, decrease the duty on cigarettes or create incentives so people move to other parts of the UK.

    That should help given that over two thirds of the population growth is due to net births over deaths and not due to net immigration:

    | '000 | %
    Net: births minus deaths | 66.6 | 70.1
    Net: migration from rest of the UK | -1.3 | -1.2
    Net: international immigration | 29.7 | 31.1
    | |
    Total Population Growth | 95.0 | 100.0

    Seemingly the birth rate is less sustainable than the immigration rate.

    You see no correlation between the two?

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bf1c1d7c-1465-11e2-8ef2-00144feabdc0.html


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    #124
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    You see no correlation between the two?
    If you can link to evidence that I can actually read without buying a subscription, then I might.


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    #125
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    schnitzelEater wrote: »
    Yes, I've had enough of the Eurocrats deciding which bananas I can eat.
    Meanwhile back in the Real World...


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    #126
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    If you can link to evidence that I can actually read without buying a subscription, then I might.

    Sorry, I am on the phone so cant copy and paste the piece.

    Try these - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223009/A-quarter-babies-born-UK-children-immigrants-mothers-Poland-India-Pakistan-birth-record-numbers.html


    - http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/27/population-growth-uk-birth-rate-immigration


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    #127
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    You see no correlation between the two?
    Considering that the average immigrant tends to be younger than the average native, it would come as no surprise to me if immigrants contribute a disproportionate amount to the birth rate. However, this doesn't change the fact that most of the population increase in England and Wales results from births to native mothers.


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    #128
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Considering that the average immigrant tends to be younger than the average native, it would come as no surprise to me if immigrants contribute a disproportionate amount to the birth rate. However, this doesn't change the fact that most of the population increase in England and Wales results from births to native mothers.

    One in four births are to immigrant parents (similar in Ireland fwiw).

    Do you think Britains population growth is sustainable? Its cities are some of the most congested in Europe, as is. Where are all these people going to live?


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    #129
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    One in four births are to immigrant parents (similar in Ireland fwiw).
    No, one in four births is to immigrants mothers (if we are to believe the Mail), which is not the same thing at all - how many of the fathers are immigrants?
    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Do you think Britains population growth is sustainable?
    What do you want to do - stop people having kids?
    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Where are all these people going to live?
    Flats and houses, I assume.


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    #130
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    djpbarry wrote: »
    No, one in.......... I assume.

    I put the question to you first. Britains population is expected to hit seventy million by 2027. Do you think this population growth is sustainable? Does Britain have an infinte capacity to absorb immigrants?


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    #131
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    I put the question to you first. Britains population is expected to hit seventy million by 2027. Do you think this population growth is sustainable? Does Britain have an infinte capacity to absorb immigrants?

    It's a mistake to simply draw a line forward into the future from a current trend. 20 years ago the UK was worrying about population decline, now it's worried about population growth, in 20 years it may be worried about decline again. And the UK - even London - could take a lot more congestion with a bit more planning. It's not Singapore yet by any stretch.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #132
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    It's a mistake to simply draw a line forward into the future from a current trend. 20 years ago the UK was worrying about population decline, now it's worried about population growth, in 20 years it may be worried about decline again. And the UK - even London - could take a lot more congestion with a bit more planning. It's not Singapore yet by any stretch.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Or even as congested as Holland.


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    #133
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    He seems to argue that immigration helps economic growth. Does the land grow too?

    Overcrowding and cogestion is horrific in the UK - I wouldnt live there for all the tea in China.
    You make it sound like every square meter of the island of Great Britain is covered with people. Cities are huge and have congestion: news flash.


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    #134
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    One in four births are to immigrant parents (similar in Ireland fwiw).

    Do you think Britains population growth is sustainable? Its cities are some of the most congested in Europe, as is. Where are all these people going to live?
    A few points:

    If one in four births are to immigrant parents (both, which is an assumption as only the mother is cited as such in the articles) and we return to the population data you gave us, then between immigration and births from immigrants, just under half (48.8% or 46.4 thousand p.a.) of the annual increase is foreign. This means that a majority are still native.

    As has been pointed out, the UK is currently experiencing a baby-boom. This is not simply an imported phenomena. Neither can we extrapolate that it will continue.

    Secondly, England or her cities are not that congested. Italy is in far more, IMHO, but that's because the cities are often old and urban planning thus prevented from fully dealing with this issue because the cities are protected and not due to population growth - as this is shrinking. So correlation does not imply causation and this is another matter you should take this into account.

    Thirdly, and returning to the original topic, most immigrants in the UK are EU nationals (UK cities don't even feature in top ten of those with non-EU nationals) and so the leaving the EU would make no difference and this has repeatedly been pointed out. The UK would remain a member of the EEA and thus obliged to respect freedom of movement of other EEA citizens, just as Norway and Switzerland are. Of course, the UK could also leave the EEA, but then you've got a completely new can of worms open.

    Then there is the question of population density; in this the UK is still much better off than Malta, the Netherlands and Belgium. Instead it has comparable population density to Germany and Italy (two of the EU's 'big four'). Nothing special.

    Finally, it cannot be ignored that half of your claims are based upon England and Wales alone - Northern Ireland and Scotland are omitted. If you look at the latter, you'll find that there's low population density and even concern that the fertility rate is low. This points to a population distribution based problem, which ties into my second point again.

    So overall, the present growth is nothing special and neither is the population density of the UK - it's a baby boom and to presume that it will continue indefinitely is presumptuous. It's also not solely an immigrant related issue as a majority is still native. Additionally, population density is not uniform throughout the UK and it points to structural, rather than birth or migrant, factors.

    And last, but not least, the discussion is moot, due to the responsibilities that would still be imposed by continued EEA membership.


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    #135
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    I put the question to you first. Britains population is expected to hit seventy million by 2027. Do you think this population growth is sustainable?
    I don’t know, but if it is not, then, by definition, it won’t sustain itself. People are hardly going to migrate en masse to live in tube stations, are they?


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    #136
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    He seems to argue that immigration helps economic growth. Does the land grow too?

    Overcrowding and cogestion is horrific in the UK - I wouldnt live there for all the tea in China.

    Have you ever been to the UK? You make it sound like something out Judge Dredd.

    The land doesn't grow but unless you want everyone to go into subsistence farming, I'm fairly baffled as to what your point is.


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    #137
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Lockstep wrote: »
    Have you ever been to the UK? You make it sound like something out Judge Dredd.

    The land doesn't grow but unless you want everyone to go into subsistence farming, I'm fairly baffled as to what your point is.

    That growing the proportion of the UK's land area that's developed/urban from 10% to 13% is an impossible demand?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #138
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Lockstep wrote: »
    Have you ever been to the UK? You make it sound like something out Judge Dredd.
    Yeah, it's nowhere near that cool.


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    #139
    schnitzelEater
    Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭schnitzelEater


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Meanwhile back in the Real World...

    :rolleyes: Yeah, I'm going to believe an article about this written by the EU themselves.

    And turkeys will be voting for Christmas 2013.


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    #140
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    schnitzelEater wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Yeah, I'm going to believe an article about this written by the EU themselves.
    The EU wrote that article? Does that mean that the EU controls Wikipedia too?

    This is serious, because then it seems the EU has already infiltrated the BBC, CNN and the Guardian. You know, this conspiracy is so big that the EU could be in league with David Icke's nine-foot-tall lizardmen...


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    #141
    Coyler
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Coyler


    The conspiracy has even gotten to QI.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqVJEZnYiZo


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