Traditional Martial art ?

FERGAL7

Does anyone else feel Japanese Jujitsu is underrated?? I have heard alot of people say it is not practical, BJJ is better, Judo is better and so on.. Alot of people have said they feel this way because most JJJ dojos train alot of kata and primarily focus on this while BJJ and Judo gyms are more practical in their approach.
I train JJJ in Enniskillen and I would have to strongly disagree with all of these assertions. We start a class by warming up for 10 minutes, then practice a little bit of strikes (I concede here that JJJ will not result in elite level striking but I do feel that it would be a good pathway to learning Muay thai.) we then practice thows, trips and takedowns(If someone is new to the class we will not resist their throw but for the most part it is competitive.) and then spend 20 mins to a half hour grappling for submission on the ground. the last 20 minutes or so of the class is usually spent going over syllabus. (Pressure points, breaking strangles etc.) There is one kata for each belt level and it is seen as being of minimal importance, we start practising it about a week or two before the exam just so we know it.
Has this been most peoples experience with JJJ?? if so I fail to see how it could be considered inferior to BJJ or Judo.

cowzerp

BJJ is proven in Mma competition, I don't know anyone who uses JJJ as their main MMA art.

FERGAL7

Yes I know but given what Ive described about my class what advantages might a BJJ practioneer have over myself when you consider a large portion of the class time is given to competitive grappling.

Stillweak

FERGAL7 wrote: »

Yes I know but given what Ive described about my class what advantages might a BJJ practioneer have over myself when you consider a large portion of the class time is given to competitive grappling.

The advantage they would have is that they are shown moves that actually work by people who know what they are talking a out.( unless they don't)
Somebody posted a clip of a jjj class learning a kimura while you are full mounted. The camera man was gasping at how incredible the teacher was, but as the poster said, had the teacher tried this against a fully resisting opponent she would have seen it doesn't work. Her training partners were rolling off her so she thought it was a practical move.
Basically jjj has a tradition of training while not fully resisting. You are saying this is not the case but until somebody from your school enters a comp and beats some decent bjj guys, I'm afraid bjj or mma fans just won't believe you.

FERGAL7

Well I can't vouch for all JJJ schools but we do train with the intent of resisting the moves being applied. i am not saying all JJJ schools train like this. If most schools train the way you describe then I can fully see why JJJ hasn't been sucesful in MMA. I once visited a Shorin-Ryu Karate school with the view of finding a striking art to compliment my JJJ. I expected it to have the same level of intensity as the JJJ class. instead we spent an hour and a half doing these ridiculous katas that emphasised keeping you hands at your hips when punching, staying in horse stance, and NEVER using your hips or legs to generate power into your punches. So if most JJJ schools emphasise a similiar training method then I can see why most people in MMA circles have the perception they do of JJJ as I would now hold a similiar attitude towards Karate and feel Boxing, Muay Thai or kickboxing would be much better.

CIARAN_BOYLE

school and coach is massively more important than style imo

I don't know about JJJ but a some karate katas are almost written in code and you can't figure out a decent application from the kata itself without someone explaining it to you which is imo pretty crap and often annoys me.

FERGAL7

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

school and coach is massively more important than style imo



Completely agree I did not realise just how good of a teacher my JJJ tacher is until I attended that Karate class and seen the way that class was ran!! :L

Dyr

*insert my usual spiel about people referring to WJJF etc as Japanese Ju Jutsu*

FERGAL7

Bambi wrote: »

*insert my usual spiel about people referring to WJJF etc as Japanese Ju Jutsu*

Surely its the teacher/Senseis ability to teach you what he knows, and how he runs his class that matters rather than the organisation his school is tied to???

darced

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Chris89

I fought a japanese jiu jitsu black belt in a submission wrestling tournament over a year ago, he was listed online as a master i believe with maybe 5 dans (i looked him up at the time), he was older than me but was in good shape, he also outweighed me significantly. I am a blue belt in brazillian jiu jitsu. I won the match on a first takedown rule, I was admittedly unable to submit him back then but his grappling skills left a lot to be desired.

Thats my only experience with japanese jiu jitsu.

FERGAL7

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In all fairness you are now just bashing the system from every direction. I mean the biggest complaint most people have about JJJ is that moves arent applied with resistance. When you come across a class that does so you refer to it as "knee wrestling" and claim the moves dont work. the rear naked chokes, kimuras, armbars, guillotine chokes, D'arce chokes and so on that I have been taught hurt and I know this because I have been subjected to them while rolling. I did state the throws takedowns and trips are done against resistance granted when a new throw is being taught a student does not practice it against resistance until they have learned the proper form just the same as a young boxer will not be put in a fight until he is well versed in the skills of boxing. you may disagree but in my experience pressure points work to a certain degree i.e using a pressure point to distract your opponent and then applying a lock or getting out of one (I know that sounds incredibly simplified but you know what I mean.). I would have to completely disagree with what you said about only BJJ teacher being able to teach how to break strangles. At the end of the day I feel the teacher makes the fighter not the art. saying one teacher is better because he teaches BJJ than another teaching JJJ is like saying if one man wears a pair of adidas football boots worth £150 he will automatically play better than a man of similiar skill wearing a pair of boots worth £30 :L

I have seen students not get their belts on occasion but it has been high up the kyu, above blue or so which is the fifth or sixth belt :P

magicherbs

hi fergal, pleased to meet you. You seem like a nice person and intelligent. Let me tell you what I think happened to you.

I don't know why you got into martial arts. Maybe you liked bruce lee movies. Maybe you were bullied in school. Maybe your dad brought you down and you just went because you were told to go. More often than not, there is a type of fantasy people have before starting martial arts, the most typical being a fantasy of becoming a chuck norris level fighter who can defend from evil assailants and rescue damsels in distress. Please don't be offended by me inferring this, it's the same for JJJ, judo, bjj, mma, muay thai. Most people don't admit it to themselves.

next, you've being training in jjj for a long period. over this time, you've been inculcated with the ideas of loyalty, fidelity, allegiance, honour , respect for jjj and your jjj superiors. Thus it makes it very difficult for you to assess jjj objectively, for you to say jjj is not good means you're saying your sensei is not good, or your friends or not good. Furthermore, because you've invested time and energy, it becomes difficult for you to admit that what you've invested in is flawed. you've become attached to it and again, you cannot think objectively, rationally and clearly. I repeat, please do not feel offended by this, it happens to everyone, in mma, in bjj, in jjj. They find a team, a family, they get this type of brain washing and it becomes difficult to see the wood from the trees.

what you are doing, which is typical of reasonably intelligent people who think they are being open minded and fair, is trying to rationalise the time you spend/spent doing jjj. so first you will say that your jjj isn't like the rest. you will find the criticisms others have of your martial art (compliance, lack of drilling, old fashioned syllabus, not realistic etc.) and try to debunk them individually. I will say your sparring isn't with resistance, but you'll tell me you got a black eye, surely it is resistant. I'll tell you you waste time on kata, you'll tell me it's only a week around gradings. I'll tell you something and you'll invent an excuse as to how it doesn't apply to you.

let us look at the evidence.

the are numerous reports staying that jjj isn't effective as a methodology for anything approaching realistic fighting (mma, street fighting , self defence). you will dismiss them as biased, misinformed or simply not applicable to you. if you read 100 reports saying the lada automobile was a bad car, with poor fuel efficiency and bad handling, would you try and maintain that your individual lada actually handles like a ferrarri etc?

jjj has never been seen in MMA competition (e.g. ufc etc)

thus we infer that jjj isn't applicable in this arena, as someone from jjj would have taken up the gauntlet/mantle to represent. you can rationalise this as either, jjj isn't for COMPETITION, the ring or cage, it's too lethal. or you can say, you're club isn't in it for competition sakes, just for other reasons. if i told you there was a competition for paintings, and you win 500 euro for every winner, would you beleive that your painting class could enter and win, but just choose not to because that would be unethical ? unappealing? surely someone would take 500 euro.

finally, this last point is really subtle, and you won't beleive me now, it will take months/years/life time for you to get it, and accept it. BJJ, wrestling, judo are actually extremely sophisticated. people have been doing them on a daily basis, 1-2-3-4 hours a day, every day for years. They are trying to win local competitions, nationals, europeans, worlds, olympics. the sports have inherent rules, they have referees, they have some fairly arbitary criteria if you look at them from mma/free fight/vale tudo point of view. but what happens is, in these sports, you have 1000s of people, all practicing in a sporting manner that maximises improvement, development, innovation, skill accusation, rewards determined ism, endurance, work ethic, behaviour. so in the end, the champions that come from these disciplines are mega athletes, legitimate masters, experts that can actually start thinking about how to apply it to mma/vale tudo successfully.

the difference to your jjj is that you have guys fooling around on the group, for 30m to an hour a week, maybe a few weeks consecitively, then a break for the summer holidays, then a break at xmas, then missed this because of a party here, then missed because of a wedding there. nobody comes from this environment and gets GOOD. nobody comes from this environment and gets good enough to do it in a real fight against a guy who is bigger and stronger and knows how to throw a dig. no one comes from this environment and goes to mma and wins.

what comes from this environment, is white people, middle aged, nerdy, fat, overweight, well meaning, nice guys, not necessarily arogant or over confident. what comes from this environment is a black belt who has a good academic knowledge of a number of martial arts moves but would be novice level in application. what comes from this is people who probably think they're very good at what they do, and what they do is very good. they are well meaning but just wrong.

fergal, you are on a path to mediocrity, self-limiting, self-praising,self-promoting. YOu will get a black belt that has no value outside of your own school. you might get a lot of the psychological benefits of martial arts, some of the physical benefits but probably none of the neurological . you need to quit jjj and do judo/bjj/mma/wrestling and see which you like the best and try to get good at it within the context of your personal circumstances.

darced

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arybvtcw0eolkf

FERGAL7 wrote: »

Does anyone else feel Japanese Jujitsu is underrated?? I have heard alot of people say it is not practical, BJJ is better, Judo is better and so on.. Alot of people have said they feel this way because most JJJ dojos train alot of kata and primarily focus on this while BJJ and Judo gyms are more practical in their approach.
I train JJJ in Enniskillen and I would have to strongly disagree with all of these assertions. We start a class by warming up for 10 minutes, then practice a little bit of strikes (I concede here that JJJ will not result in elite level striking but I do feel that it would be a good pathway to learning Muay thai.) we then practice thows, trips and takedowns(If someone is new to the class we will not resist their throw but for the most part it is competitive.) and then spend 20 mins to a half hour grappling for submission on the ground. the last 20 minutes or so of the class is usually spent going over syllabus. (Pressure points, breaking strangles etc.) There is one kata for each belt level and it is seen as being of minimal importance, we start practising it about a week or two before the exam just so we know it.
Has this been most peoples experience with JJJ?? if so I fail to see how it could be considered inferior to BJJ or Judo.

Does anyone else feel Japanese Jujitsu is underrated?? I have heard alot of people say it is not practical, BJJ is better, Judo is better and so on.

I feel its underrated, I've never trained in it 'nor trained with anyone who has so I personally don't underate it.

What do people say its not practical for?... If its self defence or (that dreaded term) 'the street' I'd say its as good as BJJ or Judo.

If its for MMA competition then I'd say its not practical at all, neither is it practical for a BJJ or Judo comp.. But then again apart from winning points via takedowns Judo is feck all use in BJJ and BJJ for other reasons is feck all use in an Judo comp.

If you're enjoying your BJJ training, great stick at it.. If you're not ~ look at the other styles in your area, same goes for curiosity because tbh most of us will move through a number of styles before settling on one (or more in the case of MMA).

If you get BJJ lads bragging that their sub's are better ~ ignore them, they're right but ignore them... If a Judoka brags and boasts that his take downs are better ~ same applies.. They're all stupid arguments tbh.

My 2 cent.

OLDMAN1

Chris89 wrote: »

I fought a japanese jiu jitsu black belt in a submission wrestling tournament over a year ago, he was listed online as a master i believe with maybe 5 dans (i looked him up at the time), he was older than me but was in good shape, he also outweighed me significantly. I am a blue belt in brazillian jiu jitsu. I won the match on a first takedown rule, I was admittedly unable to submit him back then but his grappling skills left a lot to be desired.

Thats my only experience with japanese jiu jitsu.

Chris if you dont mind me asking how do you think you would have done against him in a full contact jjj competition?

jigglypuffstuff

Rory Angry Strictness wrote: »

They're all stupid arguments tbh..

^^This

cowzerp wrote: »

BJJ is proven in Mma competition, I don't know anyone who uses JJJ as their main MMA art.

True, but as you said it's proven in MMA competition. BJJ is mostly used for MMA and although .it is a great art, 99% of the time you see it used its in MMA. Just as an example throw a few MMA fighter into a japanese forest with a bunch of ninjitsu experts at night. Point being 99% of arts have their own specific environment in which they are most applicable.

If im not mistaken the origin of JJJ is that it was used by samurai on the battlefield at close quarters to take down, break bones and then kill the opponent quickly. So you not exactly going in with the intention of actually killing someone in an MMA ring OP,

(although given some of the beatings Ive seen guys take in the ring thats questionable):p

darced

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ryoishin

I can think of 2 people of the top of my head who are currently in Ireland who have experience in genuine Japanese jujutsu.

The cultural claimate of Japan has had a huge effect on how they teach, learn, just accept the circumstances, dont ask questions etc. The material in most Japanese jujutsu schools is decent for the purposes for which it came about. After all they are not that far removed from judo.

It would be wrong to view jujutsu kata in the same way that karate kata is viewed.

What you have to take into account is that your chances of being in a fight in Japan are crazy small. To the Japanese its like Irish dancing, why would you want to do it its a bit silly.

The vast majority of "japanese jiu jitsu" in ireland is westernised mix bag of judo, karate, boxing etc. Some of it good some of it dreadful.

Dyr

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Sounds entertaining, Which rag? "martial arts expert lies about obscure origins of his school" is'nt exaclty news of the world material

Doug Cartel

Chris89 wrote: »

I fought a japanese jiu jitsu black belt in a submission wrestling tournament over a year ago, he was listed online as a master i believe with maybe 5 dans (i looked him up at the time), he was older than me but was in good shape, he also outweighed me significantly. I am a blue belt in brazillian jiu jitsu. I won the match on a first takedown rule, I was admittedly unable to submit him back then but his grappling skills left a lot to be desired.

Thats my only experience with japanese jiu jitsu.

This wasn't by any chance at the Sub-grappling IVs was it? Because we had a 4th dan jujutsu guy at that 2 years ago.

About a week before it I asked him if he and his students would be interested in doing a competition. His immediate reply was Do I get to hit anyone? When I told him that it was just grappling he shrugged his shoulders and said he'd do it anyway. Up until the rules were explained in the morning, I don't think he knew exactly what the competition format was.

I've been to his class, and they roll regularly, but always with gloves and strikes. I think he was a bit lost when he didn't have the option to set things up with a few digs.

They went to the BJJ IVs a year later, slightly better prepared. I was out of the country, but I heard they did OK.

Chris89

Doug Cartel wrote: »

This wasn't by any chance at the Sub-grappling IVs was it? Because we had a 4th dan jujutsu guy at that 2 years ago.

About a week before it I asked him if he and his students would be interested in doing a competition. His immediate reply was Do I get to hit anyone? When I told him that it was just grappling he shrugged his shoulders and said he'd do it anyway. Up until the rules were explained in the morning, I don't think he knew exactly what the competition format was.

I've been to his class, and they roll regularly, but always with gloves and strikes. I think he was a bit lost when he didn't have the option to set things up with a few digs.

They went to the BJJ IVs a year later, slightly better prepared. I was out of the country, but I heard they did OK.

Hey, no it wasn't that competition. It was up north. I'd rather not go into specifics because I'm not having a go at the guy, I'm just being honest with my experience.

I don't imagine I would do to well against him if strikes were involved. However I might fancy my chances If his striking is at the same level as his grappling.

The ruleset of the competition shouldn't be an issue. Infact the rules on the day were ones i was unfamiliar with also, and one of the reasons for them was to make it fairer to this guy. Grappling is grappling and in my opinion he wasn't up to much. I think te reason I couldn't submit him was that he just bear hugged me from the bottom when I passed his guard and didn't let go.

Again, I still wasn't able to submit him, but I am not a 5th dan master of anything.

The difference between him and a competent bjj blackbelt is mind blowing. I am a lot better than I was a year ago and I would most certainly be able to submit him under the same format (assuming he hasn't ditched the jjj for bjj)

Not hating on anyone. Just sharing my experience.

EnjoyChoke

FERGAL7 wrote: »

Does anyone else feel Japanese Jujitsu is underrated?? I have heard alot of people say it is not practical, BJJ is better, Judo is better and so on.. Alot of people have said they feel this way because most JJJ dojos train alot of kata and primarily focus on this while BJJ and Judo gyms are more practical in their approach.
I train JJJ in Enniskillen and I would have to strongly disagree with all of these assertions. We start a class by warming up for 10 minutes, then practice a little bit of strikes (I concede here that JJJ will not result in elite level striking but I do feel that it would be a good pathway to learning Muay thai.) we then practice thows, trips and takedowns(If someone is new to the class we will not resist their throw but for the most part it is competitive.) and then spend 20 mins to a half hour grappling for submission on the ground. the last 20 minutes or so of the class is usually spent going over syllabus. (Pressure points, breaking strangles etc.) There is one kata for each belt level and it is seen as being of minimal importance, we start practising it about a week or two before the exam just so we know it.
Has this been most peoples experience with JJJ?? if so I fail to see how it could be considered inferior to BJJ or Judo.

Pointless discussing the theory of this on a message board. If you're genuinely interested get yourself down to both a good Judo and a good BJJ club, take a couple of classes and you'll have a far better understanding of the differences. Sure what have got to lose?

Andrew H

Try a couple of classes of BJJ, Judo, Wrestling or whatever else and see if you like it. The worst thing that is going to happen in a BJJ class is that you will tap.

Where ever you go you are bound to make new friends. Just leave any ego at the door and come prepared to learn.

darced

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G Spark

I know that Coolmine MMA have JJJ classes on their time table. So they obviously think there are some benefits to using it in MMA.

Peetrik

G Spark wrote: »

I know that Coolmine MMA have JJJ classes on their time table. So they obviously think there are some benefits to using it in MMA.

Or need to share the mats to pay their rent?

peter carty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q067Zj_kh70 ....looks like jjj to me,not saying its better or worse than bjj or judo i think they all have there place and can compliment each other

magicherbs

that video is complete nonsense

Dyr

peter carty wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q067Zj_kh70 ....looks like jjj to me,not saying its better or worse than bjj or judo i think they all have there place and can compliment each other

Most of the videos of the gracies doing self defence tends to look like standard jiu jitsu. Nothing wrong with that.

peter carty

its probably the most famous bjj practitioners in the world teaching jujutsu self defence what makes it nonsense

magicherbs

just because it's a gracie doesn't make it right.
just because it's a 8th degree black belt doesnt mean it will work.

that's a perfect example of statically trained, compliant, choregraphed nonsense.

That has zero application to self defence. If i was a betting man I'd wager helson gracie, like many of his kinsmen, sought to exploit his name to make money selling tapes. their is an eternal demand in the market for self-defence videos and this is there take on it.

that's nothing but glorified kata, the only way you can't see that is if you're coming at it from the blinkered perspective that you want to justify JJJ by saying it's equivalent to BJJ which is equivalent of a 10 year old saying it's ok to smoke because my daddy does. Or, you're so enamoured by the gracie cult or bjj in general, you can't accept that, with the exception of those 2 younger guys, everything the gracies put out on tape is far inferior to anything souza/sperry/etc. put out.

peter carty

To each their own i believe all martial arts have something to offer theres a lot out there that i dont like but that dont make them useless

magicherbs

bit of a logical fallacy there peter and you've also completely misunderstood the crux of the discussion.

anyone is free to do what ever martial art for what ever reason, if you like dancing and choreography, do ballet, pro wrestling or JJJ.

What the question was there - is jjj useful as a martial art in a self-defence / fight / mma context. My opinion is no and no one on this thread has made any logical argument for it.

If you're not capable of discussing it and you want to put your head in the sand and cop out of the argument by saying 'each to their own' fair enough, but why sign up and post?

peter carty

i think jjj is a self defence art and i think its a good system depending on the club and instructor i dont think it would be any good in ufc, mma i dont think it suits competition,i know a lot of door men who use it to restrain people and it seems to work well for them

magicherbs

I don't think there is any point going further with this. You are saying you have an opinion that a good instructor / club / correct alignment of the stars JJJ is a good 'system' for bouncers. But why should I believe you? Are going to offer some proof ? evidence?

Presumably there are gentlemen in your club who train jjj who are bouncers who are good at 'restraining people'. Even if we take this as true, how can you say it's the JJJ that makes them good at restraining people? Maybe it's a simple fact they are sober, bigger, stronger, more experienced men who work in groups restraining drunk, smaller, less experienced men and women.

I've seen bouncers get people in good strong holds - chokes / arm twists but their method is to sneak up behind the person and grab them quickly. IS this how you practice in JJJ club? put a mask on a guy than sneak up and pull his arm behind his back?

peter carty

your right theres no point in going any further

magicherbs

I'm think I'm pretty much right about everything there tbh.

Chris89

magicherbs wrote: »

I'm think I'm pretty much right about everything there tbh.

I wouldnt be too sure about that.

Dyr

magicherbs wrote: »

What the question was there - is jjj useful as a martial art in a self-defence / fight / mma context.

Three different contexts, maybe pick one and you might have a constructive discussion.

magicherbs

Chris89 wrote: »

I wouldnt be too sure about that.

you thought the relson gracie video was good? are you part of his organisation or something?

magicherbs

Bambi wrote: »

Three different contexts, maybe pick one and you might have a constructive discussion.

Take your pick.

Chris89

magicherbs wrote: »

you thought the relson gracie video was good? are you part of his organisation or something?

Yeah i enjoyed it, what techniques would you propose for a self defence demonstration?

magicherbs

Chris89 wrote: »

Yeah i enjoyed it, what techniques would you propose for a self defence demonstration?

cool trollin' bro

G Spark

Peetrik wrote: »

Or need to share the mats to pay their rent?

Well no, it's taught by their head coach's father, who I know is a black belt in Judo but not sure about what JJJ background he has.

Andrew H

magicherbs wrote: »

you thought the relson gracie video was good? are you part of his organisation or something?

I think basic self defence options will work once practiced in an alive environment. After all how many ways can you be held in a head lock etc..

The defence may not work exactly as it is been demonstrated but if it gives the defender/victim enough space to run away it has served it's purpose.

pablohoney87

Andrew H wrote: »

The defence may not work exactly as it is been demonstrated.

Exactly the point of "alive" training

OLDMAN1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-47G1VPiZI4

Richy06

That looked like two lads of a Saturday night puckin' the heads off each other. Except these guys had gis on.

Peetrik

Looked effective enough to me

Chris89

was that jjj? that looked pretty rough alright, i have no doubt either of those guys could defend themselves and do some damage. but are they even jiu jitsu techniques? it just looked like boxing.