N11 Glen of the Downs warning

Stallingrad

Seen a lot of crashes there over the last few months, both Southbound and Northbound. The place has its own micro climate and the road surface can be very slippery, especially on entry going South.

Slow down people.

shinny

Yep and there was only another one yesterday.

homer911

And be careful if pulling a boat on a trailer..

LEIN

There must be an oil spill there as I have seen one crashed car and 2 lose control but gather the car and not crash. The two cars I seen where well within the speed limit too.

The barrier on the left is destroyed and the grass verge on the right has had a good few cars go through it side ways.

Has anyone reported it to Wiclow Co Co?

vickers209

Gardai are advising motorists travelling on the N11 Dublin/Wexford Road to drive with extreme care at the Glen of the Downs over the new year as there have been a number of collisions along the route over the weekend.


The weather forecast gives sharp ground frost for tonight which will develop during clear spells with the risk of icy patches. Lowest temperatures will range 1 to 4 degrees.

http://www.wicklownews.net/Post/2012/12/3674/gardai-advise-motorists-to-drive-with-care-following-collisions-on-n11-

Heard it being said on east coast too!!


Drive safe this New Year!!

Newcomers1

Hi there,

Some of you may have seen the 'warning bends ahead' mobile warning sign travelling north about 200m before the bend outside Glenview hotel, well it's there cause of a number of accidents recently.

I have seen first hand a car lose control, dart left and then right before completing a 360 right in front of us. This was on Xmas morn, family driving with 2 kids, no speeding and no cars around. Thankfully we had room to stop and everyone got away fine, however a number have ended up in the ditch on the left going by the wrecked barriers and the grass verge on the right has numerous tyre marks going through them. Having driven the route today looking out or the marks, we couldn't believe how many there were.

There is a link here mentioning about it also, it was in the Wicklow forum.
http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056840751?page=1#post_82449771

So, beware if you're driving the road!

NC

bido

There is an accident there most weeks, when they were building that section of road they were more concerned about the eco warriors in the trees than getting the road built at the proper angle /camber.

Camber can mean the angle and curvature of the road surface. Often, on an oval circuit, the corners of the track have a steep angle so that the outside edge is higher than the inside edge. This is the camber of the road. The faster a car goes into a corner, the chances are that the angle from the inside edge to the outside edge needs to become steeper so that the vehicle will maintain grip, and not slide and miss the turn. This is all caused by the physical laws of motion in a curved line (centrifugal/centripetal motion) like some of us had to deal with in high school physics. Many roading engineers incorporate camber in public road designs, and getting the correct camber for the likely road speed is an important part of road safety design.:mad::mad:

homer911

bido wrote: »

There is an accident there most weeks, when they were building that section of road they were more concerned about the eco warriors in the trees than getting the road built at the proper angle /camber.

Camber can mean the angle and curvature of the road surface. Often, on an oval circuit, the corners of the track have a steep angle so that the outside edge is higher than the inside edge. This is the camber of the road. The faster a car goes into a corner, the chances are that the angle from the inside edge to the outside edge needs to become steeper so that the vehicle will maintain grip, and not slide and miss the turn. This is all caused by the physical laws of motion in a curved line (centrifugal/centripetal motion) like some of us had to deal with in high school physics. Many roading engineers incorporate camber in public road designs, and getting the correct camber for the likely road speed is an important part of road safety design.:mad::mad:

Camber is a feature of many roads, even straight ones. It is the difference in height between the edge of the road and the centre of the road to enable rain water to drain off. Well on well made roads anyway...

Cookie_Monster

homer911 wrote: »

Camber is a feature of many roads, even straight ones. It is the difference in height between the edge of the road and the centre of the road to enable rain water to drain off.

and for the most part roads are cambered from the inside towards the outside, apart from higher speed corner sections of course.

DubOnHoliday

I see there's a temporary road sign in place warning of bends in the road. A few weeks ago I saw a car up in the trees after going through the wooden fence, just before the hotel, I've never gotten the image out of my head and it sure convinced me to take it easy going through Glen of the Downs.

Cathyht

The speed limit is pretty slow there isn't it? Or is the place you mean just before the 60, or is it 50 zone? Don't know if it's the same crash, but I heard of A 'car in trees' crash recently around there, and apparently the guy just hurt ribs and a had a surface wound where a pointed branch 'pierced his ear'.

I have noticed that at night driving there are places on the road where the temperature can drop suddenly by a few degrees, around the Glen is one, and around Jack White's is another one. Has anyone else noticed this?

DubOnHoliday

The speed limit is 80 in the bends, most people do not drop down from 100 as far as I can see.

BigMoose

Northbound it's 100, the 80 is only southbound. It used to be 80 in both directions I think.

Mitch Connor

I often wonder ho people screw up on that section of the road - I simply have never, ever, found it to be anything other than completely straightforward to drive. I just can't work out what way people are handling their car if they have an issue with it.

cuddlycavies

The mobile phone signal coincidentally drops out there. I've considered this to be a factor. People farting around on the keys whilst driving.

IanL

wouldn't be surprised if its down to mobile phone use, no call could be that urgent that you risk an accident.

spank_inferno

There was a random "slow down" illuminated sign approaching there northbound this morning.

Heading north, its a perfectly normal stretch of road.
Southbound, more caution is needed.

miller50841

Hi it's a very dangerous bend and all that needs to be done is to lay the anti skid tarmac surface.

I have came very close to going straight through a 3 series when it was raining heavy.
I was well back from the car in front and I was driving a very big vehicle and the bmw spun out while overtaking then hit the center concrete barrier and then across into a van with a trailer and all in front of me.

The bends are to bad a angle and very bad planning.

spank_inferno

miller50841 wrote: »

Hi it's a very dangerous bend and all that needs to be done is to lay the anti skid tarmac surface.

I have came very close to going straight through a 3 series when it was raining heavy.
I was well back from the car in front and I was driving a very big vehicle and the bmw spun out while overtaking then hit the center concrete barrier and then across into a van with a trailer and all in front of me.

That was a bad driver driving without due care for the prevailing conditions.
The road curvature was not the problem there.

As I said, the road is fine if people are aware of the conditions, have a competent set of tyres on and are focused on the road.

If the above are not the case, incidents will occur on the straightest of roads.

I dont want to see another reduced speed zone northbound, already making a pain in the ass stretch of road un-bearable.

miller50841

The water was flowing across the road and the car aquaplaned.

Yes you are right about driver error and tyres are very important but the bends are way too sharp.

As I said all the road needs is the anti skid surface put down.

bido

The northbound section is fine the problem is the southbound section which wasn't built properly.

LifeBeginsAt40

miller50841 wrote: »

The water was flowing across the road and the car aquaplaned.

Yes you are right about driver error and tyres are very important but the bends are way too sharp.

As I said all the road needs is the anti skid surface put down.

Some surface water warning signs needed and a variable speed limit during heavy rain conditions.

I've aquaplaned in a car...when I was 19 and stupid. I was driving an old car and hit standing water on the M3 motorway in the UK. Next second the steering wheel was turning like it was no longer connected to the wheels.

I luckily managed to slow down, regain control and have never ever done it again. In poor conditions I moderate my speed. I'm not a boring old fart, I've ridden supersport motorcycles, have driven large vans and fast cars.

Driver education is what's lacking. You cannot expect to do 100-120 km/h even in a modern car over standing water and expect to get away with it time and time again.

So in my opinion, people do drive too fast for the prevailing conditions, because I certainly used to, but was lucky and learnt a lesson fast at a young age.

Skid pan driving for all learners would be great. I'd have loved that.

Cookie_Monster

miller50841 wrote: »

Hi it's a very dangerous bend and all that needs to be done is to lay the anti skid tarmac surface.

no it's not, not at all. In the wet it may be slightly slippy but you should be driving to the conditions and account for that. I've never had or seen a problem with it while driving it ever, wet, dry, snow or otherwise.
In the dry you can take it n probs at 100 (or 130 for that matter)

desoc32

I noticed theirs a red transit speed camera type van there alot these days. Just before the Glenview on the left where the red road cones are positioned. With all the accidents there lately it's maybe not a bad idea....

bido

The speed limit on that side is 80km so if you were driving at 130km as you seem to suggest you were driving at 50km over the limit which was put there for a reason, so you may have been the cause of one of the accidents when you were doing that speed.:rolleyes:

Charlie-Bravo

Over the years I've seen a number of cars turned over or facing the wrong way from spinning there (both sides north and southbound). In every case the cars I saw were rear wheel drive. I'm not saying this is the real problem and it doesn't affect front wheel drive cars - obviously speed, road conditions, camber etc are other factors. Perhaps rear wheel drive adds an additonal element?! Just curious OP, what type of car was it that you saw?

Just on the camber issue, the roundabout at Bray South exit at Kilcroney furniture is so dodgy because of excessive camber I've had to correct the car a couple of times at a very low speed during wet conditions. Beware of that one too.

FirstIn

bido wrote: »

The speed limit on that side is 80km so if you were driving at 130km as you seem to suggest you were driving at 50km over the limit which was put there for a reason, so you may have been the cause of one of the accidents when you were doing that speed.:rolleyes:

Are you sure re the speed limit heading north? Coming south it definitely drops to 80 but heading north I didn't see a 80 sign. I double checked this as I saw the speed camera van on the north bound side, cones around it. I checked the next morning when I was heading north again and there were no 80 signs on that side. This was pre Christmas.

bido

The 80 signs are only on the south bound side. the red speed van was parked on the north bound side one day around Xmas. a car drove straight into the grass bank on the left hand side of the road.

LifeBeginsAt40

Then you can add to the mix the possibility of a few too many drinks and other substances best left in Columbia.

Sadly Ireland (according to the RSA - and who am I to disagree) has a higher death rate per million on the roads than the UK. The UK as we know has one of Europe's busiest motorways in the M25.

Ireland has a problem with driving standards, the facts all too often, stand out. Now I don't know if it is a lack of law enforcement, the issue of "free" full licences many years back or what?

The mainly rural nature of the island probably doesn't help matters and the predominately wet / damp road conditions.~

Do learners in colder climates get compulsory training on ice/snow surfaces? Perhaps we need additional wet weather training during learner lessons?

LEIN

bido wrote: »

The northbound section is fine the problem is the southbound section which wasn't built properly.

Very rare to see an accident on the southbound side were there have been many on the northbound side.

bido wrote: »

The speed limit on that side is 80km so if you were driving at 130km as you seem to suggest you were driving at 50km over the limit which was put there for a reason, so you may have been the cause of one of the accidents when you were doing that speed.:rolleyes:

The limit on the northbound side is 100km/h from way back to Wicklow right up to Kilmac. It was 80km/h once upon a time but it was all revised a few years back. I'd say it will probably be reduced back if the accidents continue though.

pixbyjohn

DD9090 wrote: »

Very rare to see an accident on the southbound side were there have been many on the northbound side.

Agreed

miller50841

Let's be real here people make mistakes and with that road design there is no room for any error whatsoever.

If for any reason the car goes a tiny bit off course you are on top of the concrete barriers before you know it.

There are some very long skid marks on the concrete but some are off the one vehicle as it slid along it.

bido

miller50841 wrote: »

Let's be real here people make mistakes and with that road design there is no room for any error whatsoever.

If for any reason the car goes a tiny bit off course you are on top of the concrete barriers before you know it.

There are some very long skid marks on the concrete but some are off the one vehicle as it slid along it.

As you say skid marks on the concrete, several marks infact on the southbound carriageway. A check with the local Garda will confirm that most of the accidents are on the south bound side.

brayblue24

astrofluff wrote: »

Just on the camber issue, the roundabout at Bray South exit at Kilcroney furniture is so dodgy because of excessive camber I've had to correct the car a couple of times at a very low speed during wet conditions. Beware of that one too.

Funny, I always put that down to oil spillage from tankers leaving the garage. That is some roundabout to try and negotiate on a bike-even in the dry

LifeBeginsAt40

brayblue24 wrote: »

Funny, I always put that down to oil spillage from tankers leaving the garage. That is some roundabout to try and negotiate on a bike-even in the dry

Lethal I would imagine. My understanding is that on any corner, which the roundabout is, the tarmac gets polished by the constant scrubbing of vehicle tyres.

As this is a very heavy use roundabout with tight turns I think the surface has become polished/worn.

I used to work at Heathrow Airport and the roundabouts there were deadly in the wet, due to the excessive number of kerosene tankers and diesel delivery vans / lorries. So yes I think a combination of polished worn surface and spilt diesel over the course of time.

Even at 20mph in a modern car with excellent tyres I slip around that roundabout in the wet.

OK when you use regularly in a car, absolutely dangerous when it's your first time on a motorcycle. Pity the poor out of town visitor on a wet morning!

Alun

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Even at 20mph in a modern car with excellent tyres I slip around that roundabout in the wet.

Really? I use that roundabout regularly in all weathers and have never had a single problem.

LifeBeginsAt40

Alun wrote: »

Really? I use that roundabout regularly in all weathers and have never had a single problem.

You're kidding right?? If you come from Southern Cross and want to go N11 North, the minute you pass the N11 exit slip road and start to turn around the roundabout you can feel the front tyres struggling for grip in the wet.

This is at sensible speed!

Alun

No I'm not kidding, otherwise I wouldn't have said it would I?

LifeBeginsAt40

Alun wrote: »

No I'm not kidding, otherwise I wouldn't have said it would I?

It was more an exasperation and not a question...anyway..moving on

Cathyht

Originally Posted by DD9090
Very rare to see an accident on the southbound side were there have been many on the northbound side.
Agreed




This is rubbish. I came across 2 fatal accidents there, commuting home late in the evening, after 8 and 10 pm wet, winter's evenings.

LEIN

Cathyht wrote: »

Originally Posted by DD9090
Very rare to see an accident on the southbound side were there have been many on the northbound side.
Agreed




This is rubbish. I came across 2 fatal accidents there, commuting home late in the evening, after 8 and 10 pm wet, winter's evenings.

.... and where did I say there have been no accidents?

"rare" is the word I used.

Cathyht

DD9090 wrote: »

.... and where did I say there have been no accidents?

"rare" is the word I used.

I suppose they aren't daily. But when you use that road every evening during weekdays, it is pretty frequent.

Watch how often glass from lights, skids from minor skirmishes are on the road there. It's a dangerous stretch. Let no-one say otherwise. Jack White's is dangerous stretch too, for different reasons.

And there's a roundabout going out of Arklow, before Servier that is often like glass, 2 days ago I felt the car going from under me on it, and it's at a 50km zone, which I'm mindful of being waaaay under because the Gatso van is often there. These ARE dangerous roundabouts.

LifeBeginsAt40

Cathyht wrote: »

I suppose they aren't daily. But when you use that road every evening during weekdays, it is pretty frequent.

Watch how often glass from lights, skids from minor skirmishes are on the road there. It's a dangerous stretch. Let no-one say otherwise. Jack White's is dangerous stretch too, for different reasons.

And there's a roundabout going out of Arklow, before Servier that is often like glass, 2 days ago I felt the car going from under me on it, and it's at a 50km zone, which I'm mindful of being waaaay under because the Gatso van is often there. These ARE dangerous roundabouts.

I'm not a highways engineer, but I know that road surfaces, especially bends (and roundabouts are sharp bends) have a limited life span. Due as I mentioned to the continuous scrubbing from tyres as vehicles continuously turn.

I suspect with the economic climate as it is, road maintenance funding is way down on the list these days. So poor surfaces are not going to improve much.

I know in the UK (Ireland should be the same) there is a standard coefficient of friction used for all new road surfaces. I.e. the amount of grip offered. All roads must meet certain standards.

I would imagine if a fatality occurred on a roundabout with a worn out surface a case could be made.

Stallingrad

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Skid pan driving for all learners would be great.

Not much use to you when a concrete barrier is only inches away.

FirstIn

Accidents southbound are common. If anything more common than northnound as the concrete barrier is right on the outside of the bend hence no room for error if you are in the fast lane. Which is why the 80 limit is only applied heading south.

What lifebegins.. mentions re the kilcroney furniture roundabout is spot on. It is lethal.

LifeBeginsAt40

Stallingrad wrote: »

Not much use to you when a concrete barrier is only inches away.

Depends on what direction the skid is taking you. Think about it.

Stallingrad

LifeBeginsAt40 wrote: »

Depends on what direction the skid is taking you. Think about it.

Southbound at the entry to GOD the skid is taking you into the concrete barrier, understeer, oversteer, either way.

LifeBeginsAt40

Stallingrad wrote: »

Southbound at the entry to GOD the skid is taking you into the concrete barrier, understeer, oversteer, either way.

Exactly...so any additional training drivers can receive will make Ireland's roads a safer place to drive. People that say "skid training wont help me" are sooner or later going to skid into something and wish they did receive it.

There is a reason the RSA figures for deaths per million are higher in Ireland than other EU states. That reason is down to the quality of instruction and the enforcement of the rules.

We have one of the highest accident rates in the EU. Not surprising really with almost non-existent law enforcement and an estimated 100,000 drivers on the road who have NEVER passed a driving test. Not to mention learner drivers STILL going out unaccompanied.

We cant keep our heads in the sand and blame the road camber all the time you know!

Stallingrad

I agree 100%, my point is that skid pan training won't help you in that situation, once the car looses traction there only luck will keep you out of the barrier.

LifeBeginsAt40

Stallingrad wrote: »

I agree 100%, my point is that skid pan training won't help you in that situation, once the car looses traction there only luck will keep you out of the barrier.

Most of the M25 motorway in the UK has solid concrete central reservation. Supposed to be a lot safer in stopping vehicles crossing into the opposite carriageway than Armco.

Avoiding a skid is the secret, whether by moderating your speed or keeping a safer distance from the car in front.

Cathyht

The Gatso van there Sat night/Sun morn 1am southbound a mile or so after that roundabout.