Slow GAA Player help!!

Gerard L80

Here is something for any budding strength and conditioning coaches on this site, the player in question is me, in case you are wondering

Case study:
Player has slow acceleration over short distances. The shorter the distance the poorer the sprint performance. Once the distance gets over around 30m the performance in comparasionto others improves with him winning many of the sprints, I say many rather than all as sprint repeatability seems to be an issue, as the number of the sprints increase he falls back down the order. If it was one sprint over a longer distance than he'd win or be one of the contenders with his changes of winning increasing between 30m and around 100m, after this distance he would again fall down the pack.

This player is also very slow turning, in my opinion part of this is because he is also slow to stop to turn after building up speed if that makes sense!

So in summary the issues for this player are:
- Slow over short distances, particularly under 30m.
- Slow turning.
- Slow slowing down.
- Slow over longer distances, say over 100m.
- Poor sprint repeatability.

Factors to take in:
- Over 30.
- Already pretty lean.
- Works on flexibility regulary, particulary hip flexors.
- Includes exercises such as , deadlifts, squats, lunges and olympic lifts in his resistance training.
- Will soon be starting back football training at 2 session of 90 minutes per week and also a match of 60 minutes at weekend.
- Does resistance training 2/3 times per week x 45-60 minutes.

Possible answers:
- Practice running shorter distances.
- practice turning mechanics.
- Practice slowing down.
- Practice multiple sprints over varying distances.

While I might have the possible answers here I don't know how to go about implementing them??

nice_guy80

you need to do some specific sprint training to improve acceleration. this can be incorporated into all training sessions after you have warmed up properly and before you do any weights

there are lots of drills on youtube which can help eg

you also need to do some speed and agility training to improve movement

Gal2011

I don't want to hijack this thread but I have a somewhat similar problem except I am in my late 20's and up to two years ago I was always renowned for my speed and it was a very important part of my game. I then discovered the gym and started to lift weights but I never really did any weights on my legs and I feel this is obviously where the problem lies. I have bulked up my Chest Arms, Shoulders and back and I am 5'10 weighing 91 Kgs and I have lost all my pace now and It is really holding me back and It has changed everything for me. Any leg programmes I could incorporate and Would squatting and deadlifts lead me to get the pace and strenght or whatever is missing back into my legs?

nice_guy80

Gal2011 wrote: »

I don't want to hijack this thread but I have a somewhat similar problem except I am in my late 20's and up to two years ago I was always renowned for my speed and it was a very important part of my game. I then discovered the gym and started to lift weights but I never really did any weights on my legs and I feel this is obviously where the problem lies. I have bulked up my Chest Arms, Shoulders and back and I am 5'10 weighing 91 Kgs and I have lost all my pace now and It is really holding me back and It has changed everything for me. Any leg programmes I could incorporate and Would squatting and deadlifts lead me to get the pace and strenght or whatever is missing back into my legs?

yes they would help
as would single leg squats, lunges, box jumps

and cut back on the upper body training

siochain

footwork drills like this will help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWh6tw5Wwnw

start doing some box hops or some bounding movement in between your sets of squats, DL, etc.

cc87

How much do you weigh? Whats pretty lean?
How strong are you?

Juan_Kerr

Personally I feel speed can be developed through stretching, resistance work (terra-bands and speed bands) and explosive power (compound lifts and the like).
Sure take Paul Galvin as an example...when he won the All-Ireland, all-star and Player of the Year in 2009, he says the most important thing he did to his game that year was increase his sprint speed and power through stretching every single day of the year for 30mins

Gerard L80

cc87 wrote: »

How much do you weigh? Whats pretty lean?
How strong are you?

Around 93kg and just over 6ft in height.

Not certain of bodyfat, I'd hazard a guess around 11%. Done a dexa scan 18 months ago and I was 89kg and 9%. So I've put on 4kg in 18 months, in theory it could but all fat but I wouldn't think it is as I've been continually active and feel I don't look much fatter!!

I'd imagine relevant lifts that i use that would be relevant to speed include the following exercises:

Back squat: 140 x 5
Front squat: 100 x 5
Deadlift: 200 x 5
Power clean: 90 x 3
Power snatch: 70 x 3

There looks to be an imbalance between exercises there but some of them I train more often than others. They are not PB's but recent lifts. I dont do the olympic lifts often enough and my clean in particular increases with an increase in my front squat. To be honest I think strength is only relevant to a point, I think you can get to a level that is 'strong enough' and after that I believe your time could be better spent elsewhere. At the end of the day strength helps but it's not the be all and end all of performance in sports and I think it's over emphasised almost by as many people as that put under emphasis on it.

I should state to be clear that speed or lack of it is generally a problem regardless of bodyweight and I have never necessarily found an increase in speed over shorter distances, but maybe again between 30-100m I have, with an increase in strength.

Gerard L80

Gal2011 wrote: »

I don't want to hijack this thread but I have a somewhat similar problem except I am in my late 20's and up to two years ago I was always renowned for my speed and it was a very important part of my game. I then discovered the gym and started to lift weights but I never really did any weights on my legs and I feel this is obviously where the problem lies. I have bulked up my Chest Arms, Shoulders and back and I am 5'10 weighing 91 Kgs and I have lost all my pace now and It is really holding me back and It has changed everything for me. Any leg programmes I could incorporate and Would squatting and deadlifts lead me to get the pace and strenght or whatever is missing back into my legs?

Hijack away man, as long as I don't have to mark you I don't mind you improving your speed too!!

Gerard L80

nice_guy80 wrote: »

you need to do some specific sprint training to improve acceleration. this can be incorporated into all training sessions after you have warmed up properly and before you do any weights

there are lots of drills on youtube which can help eg

you also need to do some speed and agility training to improve movement

Thanks man, seems like good advice.

Any recommendations of reps/sets/rest periods?

Have you any experience with this or is it something you've studied or read up on?

Gerard L80

siochain wrote: »

footwork drills like this will help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWh6tw5Wwnw

start doing some box hops or some bounding movement in between your sets of squats, DL, etc.

Thanks, looks good any experiences with this type of training and results?

Any idea of reps/sets/ rest periods?

Gerard L80

Juan_Kerr wrote: »

Personally I feel speed can be developed through stretching, resistance work (terra-bands and speed bands) and explosive power (compound lifts and the like).
Sure take Paul Galvin as an example...when he won the All-Ireland, all-star and Player of the Year in 2009, he says the most important thing he did to his game that year was increase his sprint speed and power through stretching every single day of the year for 30mins

I don't disagree that they all play a part but I'd imagine that different people would place different emphasize on different things. Do you not think actually sprinting and turning and so on should be practiced?

I seen that documentary with Paul Galvin but I'm not sure that he actually outlined how much and how often he stretched, I stand to be corrected though. And I'm sure he must of emphasised some muscle groups over another, I'd be interested to know what.

Gerard L80

First time really posting here so I'd hope that no one gets offended by me!

Im grateful to everyone that replies but I just wouldn't be the sort of fella to do something just because someone said it was a good idea, I'd want to know what, how and why?

So I'm not doubting what your saying is wrong but I'll be just looking for a little more information why you think it's right! If it's just an opinion you have that's fine too, nothing wrong with that, I've got lots of opinions on things, sometimes I've been proved right, sometimes I've been proved wrong and other times I've just changed my opinion based on something new I learned or experienced! So hopefully now I've cleared that up we can go about making Ireland aging GAA players faster!!

Hanley

Considering you've already got a good strength base I'm going to throw plyometric training out ther. If you don't have the ability to repeatedly absorb and redistribute force by minimizing foot ground contact times, you'll be slow off the mark and crapnat turning

...and of course sprint/turning mechanics work is important too!!

nice_guy80

Hanley wrote: »

Considering you've already got a good strength base I'm going to throw plyometric training out ther. If you don't have the ability to repeatedly absorb and redistribute force by minimizing foot ground contact times, you'll be slow off the mark and crapnat turning

...and of course sprint/turning mechanics work is important too!!

yeah, I've used that wall speed drill.
8 on boths leg, take a break. do it three times
do it well. focus on technique.

while you're taking a break you could add in some box jumps

technique is key.

Tom_Cruise

Im interested in the feed back to the OP's question as well.

I am in a pretty similar situation. I spent a few years in the gym before going back playing soccer.

I feel like i could be a lot faster and more agile than i am at the moment but im not exactly what course of action i should take to achieve this.

Hanley

nice_guy80 wrote: »

yeah, I've used that wall speed drill.
8 on boths leg, take a break. do it three times
do it well. focus on technique.

while you're taking a break you could add in some box jumps

technique is key.

Box jumps aren't plyos, there's no force absorption/amortization phase... they're just another power exercise and if you're producing good power already (good power clean and strength numbers) then they may not hav a beneficial carryover.

diegowhite

Hanley wrote: »

Box jumps aren't plyos, there's no force absorption/amortization phase... they're just another power exercise and if you're producing good power already (good power clean and strength numbers) then they may not hav a beneficial carryover.

Plyos are by definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics wrote:

are a type of exercise designed to produce fast and powerful movements

Or are there multiple definitions?

The getting off the box bit could be used as force absorption in any case (land on 2 feet, 1 feet etc)

Hanley

diegowhite wrote: »

Plyos are by definition:



Or are there multiple definitions?

The getting off the box bit could be used as force absorption in any case (land on 2 feet, 1 feet etc)

You should have read the rest of that wiki page.

"Since its introduction in the early 1980s, two forms of plyometrics have evolved. In the original version of plyometrics created by Yuri Verkhoshansky of the former Soviet Union, it was defined as the shock method.[4][5] In this, the athlete would drop down from a height and experience a “shock” upon landing. This in turn would bring about a forced, involuntary eccentric contraction which was then immediately switched to a concentric contraction as the athlete jumped upward. The landing and takeoff were executed in an extremely short period of time, in the range of 0.1- 0.2 seconds. The shock method is the most effective method used by athletes to improve their speed, quickness and power after development of a strong strength base.[6]
Rather than using the term plyometrics to indicate exercises utilizing the shock method, it may be preferable to use the term explosive or true plyometrics which can be considered the same as the plyometrics originally created by Verkhoshansky.[7]"

entropi

diegowhite wrote: »

Plyos are by definition:



Or are there multiple definitions?

The getting off the box bit could be used as force absorption in any case (land on 2 feet, 1 feet etc)

A box jump would only be the first part of what you associate with them as plyometrics. If there were three or four boxes spaced out over a few metres, then the plyo comes into effect with the force absorption/redirection and effort used to jump on to the next box etc. Advancements on that would entail using different heights for boxes, lateral jumping work and using a box jump then into a 15m sprint for example.

OP, improving sprint speed over short distance will utilise all of the above techniques people have mentioned, but you will need to work on your 0-30m acceleration to improve that aspect of your game also.

You could even break up your three gym days into specifics: one day for Olympic lifting, one for regular gym work, and one for plyometrics. Remember your rest days and nutrition though, these will serve as a backbone in addition to your current training.

siochain

Gerard L80 wrote: »

Thanks, looks good any experiences with this type of training and results?

Any idea of reps/sets/ rest periods?

Yes, we do similar drills with the backs and the back rowers in the rugby club.

At the start until you know the drill off you can do loads of them at a low to medium pace.

When you have the footwork sorted I would shoot for 10 sets with full recovery in between sets, you need to do these fresh at the start of your training session (after warm up and very good stretch). What your aiming for is dynamic precise movements while powering through the stations.

Will Heffernan

This problem and all the subsequent posts here are a little snapshot of what you find in most sports.

My observations...in no particular order and without any rating of significance or importance...1. You can't just cherry pick bits and pieces of 'training' and think you are going to find the answer....saying the answer might be found in plyo's or box jumps or leg training is about as helpful as telling you to take fish oil or to eat more oats for all the help they are going to be. 2. You have to look at your training holistically...nothing that happens in your body happens in isolation. 3. The OP is saying that his acceleration sucks as does his sprint endurance and repeatability...but what is the reason for this...poor sprint mechanics, lack of strength, lack of strength balance, poor power...on and on this list goes. 4. Saying that you do strength training and oly training to me means nothing here....because I see lots of people squat poorly, deadlift poorly and see people who's actual sport of choice is oly lifting.....who olympic lift poorly. 5. Learning to sprint from youtube is about as effective as learning to fight from youtube....yes, it looks like you are doing the same thing as what's on the video....believe me...you're not. 6. Throwing enough sh*t at the problem because some of it might stick is not the best solution.

You need to identify what the issue is....not what you think it is but what it actually is. You need to identify what your biggest limitation and or impediment to your performance actually is...and work on that. You need to ensure that the fundamentals of what you are currently doing are correct. You are all looking at this problem ass about backwards. Do you actually need to weight train at all? If you do....how much do you actually need to do? If you want to run faster do you want to take one guess what you might need to invest a bit more time in?

Gerard L80

Master of Nothing wrote: »

A box jump would only be the first part of what you associate with them as plyometrics. If there were three or four boxes spaced out over a few metres, then the plyo comes into effect with the force absorption/redirection and effort used to jump on to the next box etc. Advancements on that would entail using different heights for boxes, lateral jumping work and using a box jump then into a 15m sprint for example.

OP, improving sprint speed over short distance will utilise all of the above techniques people have mentioned, but you will need to work on your 0-30m acceleration to improve that aspect of your game also.

You could even break up your three gym days into specifics: one day for Olympic lifting, one for regular gym work, and one for plyometrics. Remember your rest days and nutrition though, these will serve as a backbone in addition to your current training.

Sounds good, could you expand on a plyometrics session?

nice_guy80

the box jump is just to teach his body to take off properly

I wasn't given the opportunity to demonstrate how to practice landing....

The Dagda

Run up hills...

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/hilltrain.htm

Gerard L80

Will Heffernan wrote: »

1. You can't just cherry pick bits and pieces of 'training' and think you are going to find the answer....saying the answer might be found in plyo's or box jumps or leg training is about as helpful as telling you to take fish oil or to eat more oats for all the help they are going to be. 2. You have to look at your training holistically...nothing that happens in your body happens in isolation. 3. The OP is saying that his acceleration sucks as does his sprint endurance and repeatability...but what is the reason for this...poor sprint mechanics, lack of strength, lack of strength balance, poor power...on and on this list goes. 4. Saying that you do strength training and oly training to me means nothing here....because I see lots of people squat poorly, deadlift poorly and see people who's actual sport of choice is oly lifting.....who olympic lift poorly. 5. Learning to sprint from youtube is about as effective as learning to fight from youtube....yes, it looks like you are doing the same thing as what's on the video....believe me...you're not. 6. Throwing enough sh*t at the problem because some of it might stick is not the best solution.

You need to identify what the issue is....not what you think it is but what it actually is. You need to identify what your biggest limitation and or impediment to your performance actually is...and work on that. You need to ensure that the fundamentals of what you are currently doing are correct. You are all looking at this problem ass about backwards. Do you actually need to weight train at all? If you do....how much do you actually need to do? If you want to run faster do you want to take one guess what you might need to invest a bit more time in?

1. Is that not what happens in team sports training? Coaches pick certain drills that they think will improve speed of most of the team? Possibly a different topic but not totally unrelated.

2. Therefore work on a few areas?

3. What's strength balance?

4. I agree, I know of lots of sports people training Olympic lifting and personally I don't think there getting anything out of it. There doing Olympic lifting and it's cool to say I'm doing Olympic lifting to improve my speed/vertical jump etc but I think there time could be invested elsewhere with more productive results. That could be learning proper sprint mechanics, but that doesn't sound cool does it! .... " I learn to run twice a week". The lack of proper sprint coaches, just as there is a lack of good Olympic lifting coaches, prevents this becoming commonplace as well but maybe it will become commonplace when an inter county team claims it was one of the reasons they won an all Ireland. The fact that most strength and conditioning courses have a module on Olympic lifting and less emphasis on speed work, sprinting etc does not help. By the way I love Olympic lifting but I just don't think GAA players have the time available to them to get the most out of them. Also I won't claim to be great at Olympic lifting and will gladly admit that, but there are lots of people trying to coach the lifts with little experience and that's another reason I don't think Olympic lifting is a good fit for most GAA players.

5. I agree here again but again I think when left with no one to coach you is it not a case of any resource is better than none?

6. See reply to point 1 :-)

How do you identify what the impediment is? Slow of the mark, slow reaction possibly?

What are the fundamentals?

Do I need to weight train? Are you serious, you've obviously never spent the summer working on your tan and six pack so you can walk off the pitch with your top of after a championship game in front of a big crowd. If I invested that extra time in sprinting I'd run off too fast and no one would see me... Joking aside... I think you do need to do a certain amount of strength training to maintain a level of strength, what amount of training, what exercises and what level of strength you should hope to maintain is another question I don't know the answer to!!

Id imagine time should be invested in sprinting, its specific, if I wanted to add 10kg to my squat I won't add an extea sprinting session and likewise if I wanted to increase my sprint speed I won't add an extra squat session. Training should be specific.

How an extra sprinting session should be structured is another question. I'll give it a shout so people can give their opinions!

Warm up:
Dynamic and appropriate static stretching.
Glute activation work.

10m sprints 20 sprints, walk back between each for recovery.

30 m sprints, 10 sprints. Walk back between each for recovery.

10 x 10 m sprints running to come and turning and coming back to start.

Sprint repeatability.
Cones at 0m, 5m, 10m, 15m, 20, 25m. Do a shuttle for 30 secs seeing how many you can reach. Rest 30 secs and repeat 20 times.

Warm down.

There ye are lads, rip it up and offer improvements :-)

mushykeogh

Gerard L80 wrote: »

1.

Warm up:
Dynamic and appropriate static stretching.
Glute activation work.

10m sprints 20 sprints, walk back between each for recovery.

30 m sprints, 10 sprints. Walk back between each for recovery.

10 x 10 m sprints running to come and turning and coming back to start.

Sprint repeatability.
Cones at 0m, 5m, 10m, 15m, 20, 25m. Do a shuttle for 30 secs seeing how many you can reach. Rest 30 secs and repeat 20 times.

Warm down.

There ye are lads, rip it up and offer improvements :-)

You are trying to improve your sprint speed right? The above looks like one big endurance session to me, even with 20 x 10m sprints a walk back recovery is too short, by the the time you get on to your 10 x 30 sprints i reckon your speed session is finished.

Knock that sprint repeatability drill down to about 5/6 sets max, there wont be much speed happening there if your doing 20 sets of 30 on/off.

Will Heffernan

mushykeogh wrote: »

You are trying to improve your sprint speed right? The above looks like one big endurance session to me, even with 20 x 10m sprints a walk back recovery is too short, by the the time you get on to your 10 x 30 sprints i reckon your speed session is finished.

Knock that sprint repeatability drill down to about 5/6 sets max, there wont be much speed happening there if your doing 20 sets of 30 on/off.

Agreed.

See bolded above for particular agreement.

Feel free to handle the rest of those questions as well.

Gerard L80

mushykeogh wrote: »

You are trying to improve your sprint speed right? The above looks like one big endurance session to me, even with 20 x 10m sprints a walk back recovery is too short, by the the time you get on to your 10 x 30 sprints i reckon your speed session is finished.

Knock that sprint repeatability drill down to about 5/6 sets max, there wont be much speed happening there if your doing 20 sets of 30 on/off.

10m sprints 20 sprints, = 200m

30 m sprints, 10 sprints = 300m

10 x 10 m sprints = 200m

Sprint repeatability.
Cones at 0m, 5m, 10m, 15m, 20, 25m. Do a shuttle for 30 secs seeing how many you can reach. Rest 30 secs and repeat 20 times. = 150m x 20 = 3000m, yeah that sounds like a lot actually.

is there a set distance you should run when training for speed. say for instance run 1000m total in a session. Doesn't sound much but maybe that is more appropriate to speed training.

That session above actually wouldn't be too dissimilar to what I have done in the past with a team. Is that appropriate for a team setting, are the goals different - I know the obvious answer is the coach hasn't a clue but lets pretend he does what would a session like this be appropriate for, taking it that the trainer does know what he is doing

Is it appropriate to train to achieve all three goals at one: Acceleration, ability to turn fast and sprint repeatability or should I just prioritse one?

what about rest periods, if I ran ten metres I'd hardly be tired as I wouldn;t have got up any great speed or covered any great distances, do I really need to rest long?

BlueIsland

Gerard L80 wrote: »

10m sprints 20 sprints, = 200m

30 m sprints, 10 sprints = 300m

10 x 10 m sprints = 200m

Sprint repeatability.
Cones at 0m, 5m, 10m, 15m, 20, 25m. Do a shuttle for 30 secs seeing how many you can reach. Rest 30 secs and repeat 20 times. = 150m x 20 = 3000m, yeah that sounds like a lot actually.

is there a set distance you should run when training for speed. say for instance run 1000m total in a session. Doesn't sound much but maybe that is more appropriate to speed training.

That session above actually wouldn't be too dissimilar to what I have done in the past with a team. Is that appropriate for a team setting, are the goals different - I know the obvious answer is the coach hasn't a clue but lets pretend he does what would a session like this be appropriate for, taking it that the trainer does know what he is doing

Is it appropriate to train to achieve all three goals at one: Acceleration, ability to turn fast and sprint repeatability or should I just prioritse one?

what about rest periods, if I ran ten metres I'd hardly be tired as I wouldn;t have got up any great speed or covered any great distances, do I really need to rest long?

No expert now but you need to stop thinking about speed training in distances i.e 1000m etc. Thats not what it about. putting distance into your legs trains you to be able to run that distance IMO.

5x10m, 5x20m,5x30m with lots of recovery in between reps and sets would probably improve your ability over that distance far more than tiring your legs out with a ridiculous amount of sprints.

on a sidenote 90% of g.a.a managers have zero clue how to train for speed. all their drills are endurance work including shuttle runs etc. they think you need to be boloxed to be training.... the worse is idiots who turn ladders and hurdles into epic endurance seesions

nice_guy80

BlueIsland wrote: »

No expert now but you need to stop thinking about speed training in distances i.e 1000m etc. Thats not what it about. putting distance into your legs trains you to be able to run that distance IMO.

5x10m, 5x20m,5x30m with lots of recovery in between reps and sets would probably improve your ability over that distance far more than tiring your legs out with a ridiculous amount of sprints.

on a sidenote 90% of g.a.a managers have zero clue how to train for speed. all their drills are endurance work including shuttle runs etc. they think you need to be boloxed to be training.... the worse is idiots who turn ladders and hurdles into epic endurance seesions

the bad ones do

the good ones are fairly clued in.

BlueIsland

nice_guy80 wrote: »

the bad ones do

the good ones are fairly clued in.

from my experience thats 10% of them. for every ten bluffers you might get one clued in manager.

Hidalgo

For me a lot of it comes down to quickness of feet.
In GAA, most of the sprinting you do is over short distances, often from a standing/walking start. Therefore you need to be able to get up to maximum speed over minimum time.

If your playing corner/wing back you also need to be able to turn as quick as the fella your marking turns and changes direction.
I think sprints out and back to designated cones are a bit of a waste tbh as you can see the point you will be turning at.

We used do the following 2 drills a bit, I found them helpful for reaction/speed of feet.

1. Have 3 or 4 lads in a line. Rather than sprinting out to the 1st cone, back out to the 2nd back etc, let the man in the middle of the line decide when to turn and sprint back or simply when to go from a forward sprint into a reverse sprint. He again decides when to sprint forward again, then back again then forward to the finish line. It's up to the others in the group to react to the leaders change of direction, change the leader each time.

2. Your in the centre of a small square, cones at each corner. Teammate is behind you in an identical square and another behind him in another square. For 30 seconds, you as leader decide which cone to sprint to, ie forward left, back right etc Its up to those behind to react to you and follow to the same cone in their own square. When you get to the cone you have to reverse sprint back to the centre point and off again, If your going to one of the back cones reverse sprint to it and forward sprint back to the centre point. Change the leader after 30 seconds, very severe on thigh muscles but excellent to increase reactions. We keep the square small, only 6-7ish steps as you sprint from the centre to a cone.

An old fashioned method to increase speed is simply down hill sprinting down a good steep slope. We did it at U21 level on hard sand dunes. personally I found it added an extra bit to my sprints.

One thing that surprises me is that GAA teams never (or I've never heard of it) get athletics coaches in to improve technique. Some of the reason why some lads are poor sprinters may simply be poor technique, this is something that's rarely looked at imo.

nice_guy80

BlueIsland wrote: »

from my experience thats 10% of them. for every ten bluffers you might get one clued in manager.

I've experienced otherwise.

maybe I've been lucky.

nice_guy80

Hidalgo wrote: »

One thing that surprises me is that GAA teams never (or I've never heard of it) get athletics coaches in to improve technique. Some of the reason why some lads are poor sprinters may simply be poor technique, this is something that's rarely looked at imo.

most clubs should be doing athletic coaching at under 8 and under 10 level, never mind senior. benefits are huge for players as they grow up.

there is very little specific training done for positions in GAA (eg when compared to the likes of rugby or american football - which i suppose are professional sports).
ie corner backs need different movement skills than a midfielder or full forward.

entropi

Gerard L80 wrote: »

Sounds good, could you expand on a plyometrics session?

I could, but it may not do you too much good without proper instruction. I'd rather you not get injured from improper technique.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Agreed.

See bolded above for particular agreement.

Feel free to handle the rest of those questions as well.

Seconded.

I'll give it a go.

Gerard L80 wrote: »

1. Is that not what happens in team sports training? Coaches pick certain drills that they think will improve speed of most of the team? Possibly a different topic but not totally unrelated.

It is, and it's not. There will be many sports teams out there that will try and employ these training techniques, but the coaches that actually know what they would be doing, and why, is a different story.

2. Therefore work on a few areas?

You would need to.

3. What's strength balance?

See 2. Strength balance means you wont have major differences in opposing muscle groups. For example, your hamstring to quad ratio, are they too biased to one group, or are the quads ever so slightly stronger (as they should be)? Just training one part of the body to develop an aspect of fitness will not work, look at the body as it is; a whole unit.

4. That could be learning proper sprint mechanics, but that doesn't sound cool does it! .... " I learn to run twice a week". The lack of proper sprint coaches, just as there is a lack of good Olympic lifting coaches, prevents this becoming commonplace as well but maybe it will become commonplace when an inter county team claims it was one of the reasons they won an all Ireland.

The part in bold, is one of your biggest tools to utilise. Learning to run, is exactly what you are looking for tbh. Having the right biomechanics in place is a major boost, considering a large portion of your opponents may not have that advantage. The lack of very good coaches is an aspect to look upon, and it may be expensive for a club to get a sprint coach in for every team, so it would be reserves for the "A" squads if at all possible. By the way, an inter-county team wouldnt advertise that anyway. No team will really nail down one specific thing that helped them in public, even though it did. Then everyone would be doing it. Sure look at Donegal for example. This year, everyone is convinced it's purely down to tactics that done it for them. Who's to say it wasnt some form of training also?

The fact that most strength and conditioning courses have a module on Olympic lifting and less emphasis on speed work, sprinting etc does not help. By the way I love Olympic lifting but I just don't think GAA players have the time available to them to get the most out of them. Also I won't claim to be great at Olympic lifting and will gladly admit that, but there are lots of people trying to coach the lifts with little experience and that's another reason I don't think Olympic lifting is a good fit for most GAA players.

Olympic lifting would be one aspect of their training, since it incorporates the benefits they are looking for to improve themselves, and their performance. It suits them very much so.

5. I agree here again but again I think when left with no one to coach you is it not a case of any resource is better than none?

Many resources (within limits, and that dont get you on the injury list) would be available. Using them correctly, such as training your own biomechanics, your lifting technique or even your posture is the challenge.

6. See reply to point 1 :-)

Will is right here. You want to learn how to run, so your main focus should be that. Work on your posture, your sprint drills, proper dynamic warm up and cool down (and sufficient stretching after) and your movement technique from 0m. You dont even need to run to help yourself improve how you run.

[/QUOTE]As said above, the fundamentals are going to be the basic aspects of leg movement. Look at online clips about the science of running, try and have someone video you running and try to pick out your own flaws (get help for this too if you can). Break it down, so you can build it up better.

Gerard L80 wrote: »

10m sprints 20 sprints, = 200m

30 m sprints, 10 sprints = 300m

10 x 10 m sprints = 200m

Sprint repeatability.
Cones at 0m, 5m, 10m, 15m, 20, 25m. Do a shuttle for 30 secs seeing how many you can reach. Rest 30 secs and repeat 20 times. = 150m x 20 = 3000m, yeah that sounds like a lot actually.

That session would be way too much. There's too much volume in that session. Like mushykeogh posted, drop that to 5 sets. And drop the shuttle run too, you'll probably get enough cardio in training as it is. In my experience, GAA managers love cardio.

Is it appropriate to train to achieve all three goals at one: Acceleration, ability to turn fast and sprint repeatability or should I just prioritse one?

They are three seperate components, and should be trained seperately. Work on acceleration first, then repeatibility (speed stamina) then turning ability (agility). That's my take on it anyway.

what about rest periods, if I ran ten metres I'd hardly be tired as I wouldn;t have got up any great speed or covered any great distances, do I really need to rest long?

During the session, you will tire faster than you think. The initial energy system you use for sprinting needs at least 3 minutes to recover after 10 seconds flat out effort. Think about that.


That post worked out longer than intended!

nice_guy80

I'd love to see a professional coaching ticket (such as in rugby, Aus rules or american football) take over a GAA county or club team and see what they could do with them.
would the training methods be radically changed?
could players buy into different ideas?
would the players improve much? skill-wise and fitness.

Hidalgo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

most clubs should be doing athletic coaching at under 8 and under 10 level, never mind senior. benefits are huge for players as they grow up.

there is very little specific training done for positions in GAA (eg when compared to the likes of rugby or american football - which i suppose are professional sports).
ie corner backs need different movement skills than a midfielder or full forward.

Yep. Corner backs in today's GAA need to be 'wirey'

Think a few counties are starting to have a goalkeeping coach, backs coach and forwards coach but in general, all players are lumped together doing the same training despite the fact that some are weaker than others at certain traits.

Gerard L80

I googled Olympic Lifting in GAA and I found this:

http://willheffernan.blogspot.ie/2008/10/i-love-olympic-lifting.html

I think its the same fella that posted here earlier, blog looks good, I'll read more of it in time.

But he makes some good points in the article.

The search was actually to see if any GAA teams are actually using olympic lifting, does anyone know of any team using olympic lifts, I'd imagine intercounty would have the greater possibilty of using them.

Gerard L80

Master of Nothing wrote: »

I could, but it may not do you too much good without proper instruction. I'd rather you not get injured from improper technique.

Could you give me some detail, coming across as being worried about my safety after initially posting advice looks more like you are afraid to post further information for fear of it being wrong rather than me getting injured!!



Olympic lifting would be one aspect of their training, since it incorporates the benefits they are looking for to improve themselves, and their performance. It suits them very much so.

Could you expand on the benefits that they are looking to improve themselves and their performance?


That session would be way too much. There's too much volume in that session. Like mushykeogh posted, drop that to 5 sets. And drop the shuttle run too, you'll probably get enough cardio in training as it is. In my experience, GAA managers love cardio.

Have you any other sprint repeatability drills others than the shuttle run?

They are three seperate components, and should be trained seperately. Work on acceleration first, then repeatibility (speed stamina) then turning ability (agility). That's my take on it anyway.

During the session, you will tire faster than you think. The initial energy system you use for sprinting needs at least 3 minutes to recover after 10 seconds flat out effort. Think about that.

Its 10m not 10 seconds, therefore what would the recovery time be?


By the way thanks for the detailed reply.... just in case you think I don't appreciate it

Gerard L80

BlueIsland wrote: »

from my experience thats 10% of them. for every ten bluffers you might get one clued in manager.

There are alot less bluffers then there used to be, trainers are becoming more knowledgeable, I think the latest report has it down to 15%.

Having said that I'd like to see more advanced GAA coaching courses. Its a few years since I done one but I thought it was harmless enough.

The Dagda

The Dagda wrote: »

Run up hills...

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/hilltrain.htm

Sorry to repeat myself, but speed is power, it's anerobic, so you need resistance to improve.

Hills provide that resistance, so any drills should be done on a steep hill. The steeper the better.

TheZ

Hidalgo wrote: »

For me a lot of it comes down to quickness of feet.
In GAA, most of the sprinting you do is over short distances, often from a standing/walking start. Therefore you need to be able to get up to maximum speed over minimum time.

If your playing corner/wing back you also need to be able to turn as quick as the fella your marking turns and changes direction.
I think sprints out and back to designated cones are a bit of a waste tbh as you can see the point you will be turning at.

We used do the following 2 drills a bit, I found them helpful for reaction/speed of feet.

1. Have 3 or 4 lads in a line. Rather than sprinting out to the 1st cone, back out to the 2nd back etc, let the man in the middle of the line decide when to turn and sprint back or simply when to go from a forward sprint into a reverse sprint. He again decides when to sprint forward again, then back again then forward to the finish line. It's up to the others in the group to react to the leaders change of direction, change the leader each time.

2. Your in the centre of a small square, cones at each corner. Teammate is behind you in an identical square and another behind him in another square. For 30 seconds, you as leader decide which cone to sprint to, ie forward left, back right etc Its up to those behind to react to you and follow to the same cone in their own square. When you get to the cone you have to reverse sprint back to the centre point and off again, If your going to one of the back cones reverse sprint to it and forward sprint back to the centre point. Change the leader after 30 seconds, very severe on thigh muscles but excellent to increase reactions. We keep the square small, only 6-7ish steps as you sprint from the centre to a cone.

An old fashioned method to increase speed is simply down hill sprinting down a good steep slope. We did it at U21 level on hard sand dunes. personally I found it added an extra bit to my sprints.

One thing that surprises me is that GAA teams never (or I've never heard of it) get athletics coaches in to improve technique. Some of the reason why some lads are poor sprinters may simply be poor technique, this is something that's rarely looked at imo.

Cork hurling team and Meath football team are two intercounty teams who off top of my head have coaches with athletics backgrounds

in terms of differences to other sports there was an article couple of years ago where a Mayo football player documented his time on trial at an Aussie rules club and he found the training very tough - a big difference with any professional player versus amateur player is time to recover and other demands on that player - a county player may be playing with and training with country team, college, club, u21 etc - it can be hard to fit it all in and that's a problem GAA have not really addressed

Will Heffernan

The Dagda wrote: »

Sorry to repeat myself,

You don't need to be sorry about repeating yourself....it all the rest of the stuff you should be apologising for.

but speed is power, it's anerobic, so you need resistance to improve.

1. Speed isn't power. 2. What context or relevance does 'it's anearobic' have in relation to hill training/speed? 3. You don't need 'resistance' to attain it.

Hills provide that resistance, so any drills should be done on a steep hill. The steeper the better.

Worst piece of advice I've read this morning....but I've only been awake for 10 minutes and it is the first thread I've read...so I am sure it won't last long.

The Dagda

Will Heffernan wrote: »

You don't need to be sorry about repeating yourself....it all the rest of the stuff you should be apologising for.

1. Speed isn't power. 2. What context or relevance does 'it's anearobic' have in relation to hill training/speed? 3. You don't need 'resistance' to attain it.


Worst piece of advice I've read this morning....but I've only been awake for 10 minutes and it is the first thread I've read...so I am sure it won't last long.

Well yours is the most patronising post I think I've ever read.

Here's another link which may help you understand better;

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/speed-training-how-hill-running-will-make-an-athlete-faster-265

And if you can't comprehend the relevance of anaerobic to speed or power training, then I'm not sure why you're posting in a health & fitness forum?, it's pretty basic stuff...

Will Heffernan

The Dagda wrote: »

Well yours is the most patronising post I think I've ever read.

Here's another link which may help you understand better;

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/speed-training-how-hill-running-will-make-an-athlete-faster-265

And if you can't comprehend the relevance of anaerobic to speed or power training, then I'm not sure why you're posting in a health & fitness forum?, it's pretty basic stuff...

You can keep saying it over and over again and get as exasperated as you like but it does't make it any better.

1. I don't get my information FROM the interweb...the interweb gets its information from ME.

2. Do you want to take a guess what percentage of the worlds fastest athletes use hill running to increase their speed? Before you have you guess....I'll have mine...0-1%...I say 0% to 1% only because my guess includes the fact that there are probably some young naturally fast athletes out there that don't know any better that might think that hill training helps their speed.

3. While you are guessing....do you want to take a guess how many people posting in this thread actually work professionally in the AFL? I'll also go first on this one as well....my guess is that it is 1.

The Dagda

Will Heffernan wrote: »

You can keep saying it over and over again and get as exasperated as you like but it does't make it any better.

1. I don't get my information FROM the interweb...the interweb gets its information from ME.

2. Do you want to take a guess what percentage of the worlds fastest athletes use hill running to increase their speed? Before you have you guess....I'll have mine...0-1%...I say 0% to 1% only because my guess includes the fact that there are probably some young naturally fast athletes out there that don't know any better that might think that hill training helps their speed.

3. While you are guessing....do you want to take a guess how many people posting in this thread actually work professionally in the AFL? I'll also go first on this one as well....my guess is that it is 1.

Wow, just wow... I think you summed it up best yourself...

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I am a self opinionated arrogant a-hole...

Will Heffernan

The Dagda wrote: »

Wow, just wow... I think you summed it up best yourself...

I think so too...that's why I wrote it...because if I want or need to 'sum up' what I've said it is best that I do it myself.

That being said...thanks for the input

TheZ

Buy yourself an isorbic exerciser

Download sprintstart app and have some fun it with it

Practice running fast

Will Heffernan

Hidalgo wrote: »

For me a lot of it comes down to quickness of feet.
In GAA, most of the sprinting you do is over short distances, often from a standing/walking start. Therefore you need to be able to get up to maximum speed over minimum time.

This is one of the problems. Bits of true and bits of false.

GAA like most field sports is about having excellent acceleration rather than great speed. They aren't the same thing. Also it isn't only acceleration from a standing/walking start but it's in a direction in which the athlete isn't orientated at the time. As for the 'maximum speed over minimum time' this is just false and I'd hazard a guess that in an entire match of GAA there is probably 0-1 players from both teams that actually reaches maximum speed at any stage of the game at any period of time....and in fact in most games it's 0 players rather than even 1.

If your playing corner/wing back you also need to be able to turn as quick as the fella your marking turns and changes direction.
I think sprints out and back to designated cones are a bit of a waste tbh as you can see the point you will be turning at.

Again...this is the issue you always find on boards. 1. That people don't understand what they are talking about. 2. People don't know what they are seeing when they are actually looking at it. Which is cool and fine and all that and just is what it is BUT 1. What you are noticing and observing is spot on and absolutely correct in that in the position agility and acceleration is essential. 2. The thing is there are lots of ways to develop the elements that are required to display the attributes that you are seeing and there are lots of different athletes as well and all these different athletes have in themselves different strengths and not only display the attributes required for the position differently but respond differently to the training stimulus used to develop them. 3. In short...1. You have to identify the KPI for the position. 2. You need to assess the athlete PROPERLY. 3. You need to then look at developing the innate attributes that the athlete has that most closely matches the most relevant KPI in that position. 4. You then need to try to minimise the impact of the attributes that the player has that have a detrimental effect on performance in that position. 5 You then need to implement a program.

Player A might just be too fat...the best way to improve his speed and agility is to reduce his fat mass....all the 'fast feet' drills and 'hill sprints' and 'speed work' isn't going to improve his performance...he is just TOO FAT.

Player B might just be too weak...the best way to improve his speed and agility is to increase his strength...all the 'fast feet' drills and 'hill sprints' and 'speed work' isn't going to improve his performance because he doesn't have the strength base required to develop any power and speed....he is just TOO WEAK.

Player C might just have really poor turning mechanics...the best way to improve his speed and agility is to improve his sprint mechanics...all the 'fast feet' drills and 'hill sprints' and 'speed work' isn't going to improve his performance because he just can't apply it....the best way for him to improve is to work on his technique....he's lean, he's strong he just can't apply it to the ground...he's just TOO UNCOORDINATED.

Giving all these athletes the same advice borders on retardation and posting up some 'fast feet' drills or telling them to run hills or run down hills is just idiotic.

We used do the following 2 drills a bit, I found them helpful for reaction/speed of feet.

1. Have 3 or 4 lads in a line. Rather than sprinting out to the 1st cone, back out to the 2nd back etc, let the man in the middle of the line decide when to turn and sprint back or simply when to go from a forward sprint into a reverse sprint. He again decides when to sprint forward again, then back again then forward to the finish line. It's up to the others in the group to react to the leaders change of direction, change the leader each time.

2. Your in the centre of a small square, cones at each corner. Teammate is behind you in an identical square and another behind him in another square. For 30 seconds, you as leader decide which cone to sprint to, ie forward left, back right etc Its up to those behind to react to you and follow to the same cone in their own square. When you get to the cone you have to reverse sprint back to the centre point and off again, If your going to one of the back cones reverse sprint to it and forward sprint back to the centre point. Change the leader after 30 seconds, very severe on thigh muscles but excellent to increase reactions. We keep the square small, only 6-7ish steps as you sprint from the centre to a cone.

Drills are fine...so long as they are the right tool for the right job.

An old fashioned method to increase speed is simply down hill sprinting down a good steep slope. We did it at U21 level on hard sand dunes. personally I found it added an extra bit to my sprints.

You think that...but it didn't.

One thing that surprises me is that GAA teams never (or I've never heard of it) get athletics coaches in to improve technique. Some of the reason why some lads are poor sprinters may simply be poor technique, this is something that's rarely looked at imo.

Exactly...but again...this is the right tool only so long as you are working on the right job. As in...there is no point wasting time doing technique drills if your technique is adequate and there are other areas in which you have greater deficits that improving will yield greater returns.

TheZ

Reading the OP again - worth asking yourself if you can get faster or if you would get more bang for your buck in working on speed endurance so you can maintain a work rate throughout the game and have ability to repeat the sprints.

Also Franz Beckanbauer once said "I may not be as fast from a to b as I used to be but I don't start from a anymore". A lot of "speed" in ball sports is anticipation and positioning.