Question about the The Krays

Jumboman

Can anyone tell me why the The Krays are so popular in London ?

I just dont understand how people can look up to these Scumbags.

The way people talk about them you would swear they ran some sort of Charity :rolleyes:

scudzilla

My Grandad is from London, his brother used to run with their gang, until he met an Irish Lady and moved to Mayo.

I asked him that same question many times, The Kray's self policed the area, hardly any innocents were caught up in violence, the place was A LOT safer then than it is now

Biggins

Jumboman wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why the The Krays are so popular in London ?

I just dont understand how people can look up to these Scumbags.

The way people talk about them you would swear they ran some sort of Charity :rolleyes:

Part fear/part notoriety.

Just look at O.J. Simpson and others of even smaller questionable nature.
Some people love to mix in that company. It massages their ego sometimes.

Super-Rush

Jumboman wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why the The Krays are so popular in London ?

I just dont understand how people can look up to these Scumbags.

The way people talk about them you would swear they ran some sort of Charity :rolleyes:

They were glamorised by the media like every other famous gangster ha been.

People who look up to the likes of the Kray's, Al Capone, Mafia etc are a bit slow.

Anyway they have nothing on the Mitchell brothers.

admiralofthefleet

because ross kemp said so

orestes

Old school, "honest" criminals. They pretty much ran the place better than the police ever could and they had a very civic minded sense of responsibility. If you messed with women or children they would destroy you.

mark renton

scudzilla wrote: »

The Kray's self policed the area, hardly any innocents were caught up in violence

If they paid up on time...

3ndahalfof6

They were the London IRA, tried to look after the people while gaining status, once a vacume is created someone will fill it, before they died they did reflect thinking they left to much scum on the steets (the people who gave a fook about nobody).

p to the e

I think they were thought of as "ordinary decent criminals" if such a thing exists. They were the well dressed gents whilst the Richardsons were the vicious toe cutters. You get it with the likes of other old school British thugs like Roy Shaw aswell. Would pull your head off for looking at him wrong but tries to come off as a gent by saying he doesn't hit women. We had something similar with Martin Cahill. He was portrayed as a modern day Robin Hood when he was actually drug dealing scum.

admiralofthefleet

they hadnt a patch on brick top tbh

Winty

Jumboman wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why the The Krays are so popular in London ?

I just dont understand how people can look up to these Scumbags.

The way people talk about them you would swear they ran some sort of Charity :rolleyes:

Why do some Irish worship McGuinness and Adams?

Pottler

Because they had a big firm, and that firm had brothers, sister, wives, aunts, etc etc. And the Money flowed down from the Krays. Also, people are funny. I grew up in a very rough but wealthy neck of the woods, our next door neighbour was an arms dealer, a Turkish guy. Down the road was an Italian who ran a large chunk of Mayfair.

Both were the most charismatic men you could ever meet and one has remained a close friend throughout my life, his son was more of a brother to me than a friend as we grew up. I doubt you would find anyone to say a bad word about either men, anyone who knew them that is, they were just life enhancers to be around and tbh, I pretty much hero worshipped both of them when I was growing up. I still regard one of them as the best man I have ever had the pleasure to know. They would be regarded as scum by a large swathe of society.

On a similar vein, I've got to know a very few of Irelands best known em, characters over the years, largely regarded very badly by socity as a whole, but I got on very well with them and they were very charismatic as well with a huge amount of people who would not say a bad word about them. An equal amount would not have a good word, and probably rightly.

As a rough example, when I lived in London, there was never a single burglary, car theft or mugging for a large radius around our Home street, which included a large public park. That engenders a certain popularity amongst the neighbours and shop keepers. It was just not to be done. My own father was a great friend of both men and they would often sit out in the public park all day eating and drinking together and chatting. If you were a visiting troublemaker, there was an excellent chance one of them would decide to use you for open target practice and there was not a hope in hell any authorities would intervene. Literally. Obviously, I'm talking about so called murderers, drug dealers, gangsters, pimps, but if they are your friends, you don't see that side, or you choose to ignore it - you just see the person you know face to face. I am anything but naive, I know there is a duplicity of character there, but on a certain level of interaction, they are great people to be around as friends. Probably less so as enemies.:) Why do you think Love/Hate is so popular, as an example.

And for those who will mouth off that I'm a fantasist etc, whatever. My old lads dead, he worked his whole life and was a totally honest but very tough man with some colourful friends. I'm a builder and I'm also straight as a die. You don't choose where you grow up and I emigrated to make a different life for my kids.

Witcher

orestes wrote: »

Old school, "honest" criminals. They pretty much ran the place better than the police ever could and they had a very civic minded sense of responsibility. If you messed with women or children they would destroy you.

That's pretty much it, they were seen as being 'honourable' criminals, locals would have looked to them for justice etc. Same with local mafia figures in NY back in the early 20th century...the public in the area gave respect and they got it back, people overlooked their crimes because they generally didn't happen on their doorstep..out of sight out of mind and they probably knew them growing up, knew their parents, aunts uncles etc.

A simpler explanation would be that anyone with power will be popular regardless of how it was gained or is exercised.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Outlaws are often romantically portrayed in the media. In the Krays case people in their neighbourhood looked up to them because they made something of themselves, they didn't care about the means they used, the Krays took everything they wanted, they didn't earn it, but they endeared themselves to a lot of people.

The same thing happens the world over. In NYC 'made men' during the heyday of the Mafia were looked upon as gods, gangsters like Carlo Gambino and Lucky Luciano joined the city's high society during the 30s and 40s. In more recent times you had hoods like John Gotti being heralded as the 'King of New York'. Parts of the city came to a standstill for his funeral in 2002.

Modern gangsters in the city are still respected, although thankfully the Mafia no longer has a stranglehold on enterprise like it once did.

Seedy Arling

Did i hear somewhere that the Krays were involved in supplying kids to child molester rings back in the day?

Senna

Pottler wrote: »

Because they had a big firm, and that firm had brothers, sister, wives, aunts, etc etc. And the Money flowed down from the Krays. Also, people are funny. I grew up in a very rough but wealthy neck of the woods, our next door neighbour was an arms dealer, a Turkish guy. Down the road was an Italian who ran a large chunk of Mayfair.

Both were the most charismatic men you could ever meet and one has remained a close friend throughout my life, his son was more of a brother to me than a friend as we grew up. I doubt you would find anyone to say a bad word about either men, anyone who knew them that is, they were just life enhancers to be around and tbh, I pretty much hero worshipped both of them when I was growing up. I still regard one of them as the best man I have ever had the pleasure to know. They would be regarded as scum by a large swathe of society.

On a similar vein, I've got to know a very few of Irelands best known em, characters over the years, largely regarded very badly by socity as a whole, but I got on very well with them and they were very charismatic as well with a huge amount of people who would not say a bad word about them. An equal amount would not have a good word, and probably rightly.

As a rough example, when I lived in London, there was never a single burglary, car theft or mugging for a large radius around our Home street, which included a large public park. That engenders a certain popularity amongst the neighbours and shop keepers. It was just not to be done. My own father was a great friend of both men and they would often sit out in the public park all day eating and drinking together and chatting. If you were a visiting troublemaker, there was an excellent chance one of them would decide to use you for open target practice and there was not a hope in hell any authorities would intervene. Literally. Obviously, I'm talking about so called murderers, drug dealers, gangsters, pimps, but if they are your friends, you don't see that side, or you choose to ignore it - you just see the person you know face to face. I am anything but naive, I know there is a duplicity of character there, but on a certain level of interaction, they are great people to be around as friends. Probably less so as enemies.:) Why do you think Love/Hate is so popular, as an example.

And for those who will mouth off that I'm a fantasist etc, whatever. My old lads dead, he worked his whole life and was a totally honest but very tough man with some colourful friends. I'm a builder and I'm also straight as a die. You don't choose where you grow up and I emigrated to make a different life for my kids.

People are judged by all their actions, not just if they were nice to speak to. Both your neighbours were scumbags that probably ruined dozens, if not hundreds, of lifes.

orestes

Seedy Arling wrote: »

Did i hear somewhere that the Krays were involved in supplying kids to child molester rings back in the day?

Not a chance in hell, they would have been more likely to kill child molesters than help them.

Seedy Arling

orestes wrote: »

Not a chance in hell, they would have been more likely to kill child molesters than help them.

I just googled it. There seems to be a lot of speculation out there about it.

Pottler

Senna wrote: »

People are judged by all their actions, not just if they were nice to speak to. Both your neighbours were scumbags that probably ruined dozens, if not hundreds, of lifes.

Probably true, to you. They were not scumbags to me, they were businessmen who happened to be in illegal businesses. I'm not going to defend them, I'm just giving my honest view. I'm also not getting into keyboard warriorship, but I never heard anyone call them a scumbag, ever, I suppose you just grow up with different views of people. I was just giving my perspective anyway, not looking for a row or a debate really.

orestes

Seedy Arling wrote: »

I just googled it. There seems to be a lot of speculation out there about it.

Anything is possible, if it were true as it would cast the way people view them in a very different light. Can you post any links to articles?

Seedy Arling

Pottler wrote: »

Probably true, to you. They were not scumbags to me, they were businessmen who happened to be in illegal businesses. I'm not going to defend them, I'm just giving my honest view. I'm also not getting into keyboard warriorship, but I never heard anyone call them a scumbag, ever, I suppose you just grow up with different views of people. I was just giving my perspective anyway, not looking for a row or a debate really.

You're sort of missing the point of discussion forums there then horse.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I've noticed the same deference is shown to these new breed of Dublin criminals. The outpouring of grief from many when Alan Ryan was shot interested me, you'd people ringing in to talk shows saying what a great chap he was. I'm sure he didn't seem like such a nice guy to the people he extorted. I didn't know him but I do know that he got himself into that life and he paid the ultimate price for his choice, that's the gangster game if you want to roll the dice, don't whinge when it goes against you.

Pottler

orestes wrote: »

Not a chance in hell, they would have been more likely to kill child molesters than help them.

Not Ronnie, he had issues tbf, I've often heard it said, not that I'd have a first hand genuine clue really. I'd have waay more time for the Richardsons tbh, they were really just very very tough businessmen as opposed to outright gangsters as they are always portrayed.

Seedy Arling

orestes wrote: »

Anything is possible, if it were true as it would cast the way people view them in a very different light. Can you post any links to articles?

Can't really see any articles. Just see a lot of blog stuff. Could be the tin foil hat brigade at it.

Pottler

Seedy Arling wrote: »

You're sort of missing the point of discussion forums there then horse.

I'm not Seedy, usually I'd debate or mock anything. This is just somthing I'd have a view of my own on and wouldn't really care what anyone else thought of that, it would not change my view one bit, tbh. IRL I'd be a very open person, I've discussed this face to face with plenty of people and make no bones about what was what.

Seedy Arling

Pottler wrote: »

I'm not Seedy, usually I'd debate or mock anything. This is just somthing I'd have a view of my own on and wouldn't really care what anyone else thought of that, it would not change my view one bit, tbh.

Ah fair enough, but if there's one place you're going to get a debate or a row in, its in this kip.

Sertus

Jumboman wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why the The Krays are so popular in London ?

I just dont understand how people can look up to these Scumbags.

The way people talk about them you would swear they ran some sort of Charity :rolleyes:

Why did most Irish people look up to, and fawn over, CJ, Bertie and their pals, even though they knew they were rotten to the core ?

padd b1975

orestes wrote: »

If you messed with women or children they would destroy you.

Only if you messed with the kids Ronnie messed with.

DEFTLEFTHAND

John Bindon was another London gangster who was highly regarded, he ingratiated himself into the aristocracy, he even got invited to holiday with Princess Anne's party in Mustique, he claimed to have had sex with her on the trip.

He also had a brief spell working for Led Zeppelin's security until he pulled a gun on a roadie one night. In 1979 he walked for a murder in a highly controversial trial where some argued his celebrity status influenced the jury's decision.

orestes

Pottler wrote: »

Not Ronnie, he had issues tbf, I've often heard it said, not that I'd have a first hand genuine clue really.

Ronnie was a paranoid schizophrenic and unbelievably violent, no doubt about it (he was certified insane and died in Broadmoor) but that kind of thing can't really lead to a violation of a code of your own personal code of ethics afaik. Makes your perception of others actions irrational and your reactions to them disproportionate, like a guy accidentally bumps your elbow in the pub, you think he's disrespecting you on purpose so you stab him in the throat with a broken beer bottle. The Krays dealt harshly with people who harmed women and children, so any child molesters near Ronnie would be more likely to get butchered than get a handshake.

Seedy Arling wrote: »

Can't really see any articles. Just see a lot of blog stuff. Could be the tin foil hat brigade at it.

Meh, most likely baseless speculation so.

padd b1975 wrote: »

Only if you messed with the kids Ronnie messed with.

Ronnie was bisexual, not a pedophile.

Senna

Pottler wrote: »

Not Ronnie, he had issues tbf, I've often heard it said, not that I'd have a first hand genuine clue really. I'd have waay more time for the Richardsons tbh, they were really just very very tough businessmen as opposed to outright gangsters as they are always portrayed.

So the person giving the orders is a better class of person that the person who is carrying out the orders? They're are both as bad as each other.

dd972

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

John Bindon was another London gangster who was highly regarded, he ingratiated himself into the aristocracy, he even got invited to holiday with Princess Anne's party in Mustique, he claimed to have had sex with her on the trip.

He also had a brief spell working for Led Zeppelin's security until he pulled a gun on a roadie one night. In 1979 he walked for a murder in a highly controversial trial where some argued his celebrity status influenced the jury's decision.

Saw an interesting documentary on him, apparently some well spoken men in suits had a quiet word with him that it was not in his best interests to continue his fraternization with the House of Windsor otherwise a mysterious car crash or drug related death would ensue, there's always a bigger firm in the food chain.

Pottler

padd b1975 wrote: »

Only if you messed with the kids Ronnie messed with.

I'd have little time for the Krays, and to be honest they were tiddly little fish in a big pond, other men would not have even known what the hell all the fuss was about.

I knew of one man in London, I often ate in his home and was friends with his sons, he owned strings of businesses and never raised his voice, let alone his fists, but he would have laughed his head off if you suggested the Krays were big timers or if you suggested he go out on the town in a flash suit. His idea of a wild time was weeding his lettuce plants in the back garden.

He looked/s like a gardener, drove a modest car and was/is absolutely loved by the whole area. If you pis5sed him off, a nice man in a suit would later politely ask you not to, and seeing as that man is about 6'10" of pure muscle and bone, unless you were very dumb you'd get the story.

padd b1975

orestes wrote: »

Ronnie was bisexual, not a pedophile.

Ronnie Kray was a raging homosexual, it was an open secret that he used rent boys on a regular basis, it was generally accepted that some of these boys were under age which would make Ronnie a paedophile.

Reggie was also suspected of being gay.

Ah shur Gawd bless em! They lav their dear old Mum, no need to lock your door at night (nothing worth robbing) etc etc

They were a pair of violent thugs who never did an honest days work in their life.

End of.

batistuta9

Jumboman wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why the The Krays are so popular in London ?

I just dont understand how people can look up to these Scumbags.

The way people talk about them you would swear they ran some sort of Charity :rolleyes:

Maybe they did, maybe they helped out their community when no one else would & made their area a safer place

Similar to what Pablo Escobar did, though i don't think the Kray's done as much good for the people as Escobar. He's built schools, hospital, homes, etc. he even re-homed people who were living in a dump after their neighbourhood was destroyed - the government didn't help them

orestes

padd b1975 wrote: »

Ronnie Kray was a raging homosexual, it was an open secret that he used rent boys on a regular basis, it was generally accepted that some of these boys were under age which would make Ronnie a paedophile.

Reggie was also suspected of being gay.

Ronnie wasn't gay, he was bisexual, he was in a serious relationship with a woman for about 3 years before he was imprisoned. Even if Ronnie did have sex with guys who were under the age of consent that actually wouldn't make him a pedophile, pedophile means pre-pubescent. Shagging teenage guys is not the same thing as shagging boys.

I've never heard or read anywhere about Reggie being suspected of being gay, if true it's pretty interesting. Where did you read that?

dd972

anyone fancy forming a boxing club for some local kudos

the criminals / gangster fraternity have utter contempt for the average joe soap

orestes

dd972 wrote: »

anyone fancy forming a boxing club for some local kudos

the criminals / gangster fraternity have utter contempt for the average joe soap

Pablo Escobar - one of the biggest criminals in history, a billionaire, a massive philanthropist, and even at one point a politician. He built hospitals, churches and loads of sports stadiums/facilities. The people of Colombia loved him.

Seedy Arling

orestes wrote: »

Pablo Escobar - one of the biggest criminals in history, a billionaire, a massive philanthropist, and even at one point a politician. He built hospitals, churches and loads of sports stadiums/facilities. The people of Colombia loved him.

He was a massive philanthropist alright. He donated shed loads of cocaine to America. :pac:

UglyBolloxFace

Biggins wrote: »

Part fear/part notoriety.

Just look at O.J. Simpson and others of even smaller questionable nature.
Some people love to mix in that company. It massages their ego sometimes.

Did you really just compare the Kray twins to OJ Simpson?

orestes

Seedy Arling wrote: »

He was a massive philanthropist alright. He donated shed loads of cocaine to America. :pac:

Considering the amount of his coke that they seized he kinda did :pac:

Jumboman

Another thing Ive noticed about the krays is that about half of london claims to be related to them.

padd b1975

orestes wrote: »

Ronnie wasn't gay, he was bisexual, he was in a serious relationship with a woman for about 3 years before he was imprisoned. Even if Ronnie did have sex with guys who were under the age of consent that actually wouldn't make him a pedophile, pedophile means pre-pubescent. Shagging teenage guys is not the same thing as shagging boys.

I've never heard or read anywhere about Reggie being suspected of being gay, if true it's pretty interesting. Where did you read that?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/mar/25/ameliahill.theobserver

Chuck Stone

Senna wrote: »

People are judged by all their actions, not just if they were nice to speak to. Both your neighbours were scumbags that probably ruined dozens, if not hundreds, of lifes.

In the real world the vast majority of people ruin their own lives and in gangland the vast majority of killing is intra-gangland. If the people Pottler's talking about made their living from drugs and prostitution then they are effectively providing a service, albeit illegally, to people who seek it.

The problem with providing drugs to people who want drugs and sex to people who want sex is some groups have arbitrarily decided it's 'wrong' (or bad for business) and have thus prohibited their supply.

When drugs and sex become prohibited 'commodities' they're left to the black economy (free market). How does one settle a dispute when deals go wrong in the black economy? You just can't use the traditional channels of law and justice to settle disputes so unfortunately it's beating and ultimately killings. I guess the threat of violence is the only way of keeping order.

orestes

padd b1975 wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/mar/25/ameliahill.theobserver

Ronnie stated in his own biography that he wasn't gay, he was bi. The stuff in the article about Reggie being bi just seems like Ronnie winding up his brother to me."Ah don't worry, sure Ronnie likes guys too" or "Ah would you look at that lovely lad over there Reg, I'd love a piece of that, how about yourself?". Tongue in cheek humour amongst brothers doesn't exactly make Reggie bisexual.

The King of Moo

I imagine they'll always be beloved by lots of people thanks to their timeless hits like "True" and "Gold."

Stained Class

They were the same as the Creamers are here now.

No regard for the law, paying tax or whatever.

Made life a misery for honest businessmen thru extortion.

No prob. They loved their Mum, & gave money to sad cases who in turn would worship them.

Pure Scum.

Motivator

The Krays weren't a patch on the Driscoll brothers, they ran Peckham for years.

BillyMitchel

Sir Alex Ferguson wrote: »

They were glamorised by the media like every other famous gangster ha been.

People who look up to the likes of the Kray's, Al Capone, Mafia etc are a bit slow.

Anyway they have nothing on the Mitchell brothers.

And their cousin Billy!

Zebra3

Winty wrote: »

Why do some Irish worship McGuinness and Adams?

the catholic church and stand by it despite it being full of child rapists and their protectors?

Higher

orestes wrote: »

Pablo Escobar - one of the biggest criminals in history, a billionaire, a massive philanthropist, and even at one point a politician. He built hospitals, churches and loads of sports stadiums/facilities. The people of Colombia loved him.

Wrong. The poor people of Medellin loved him. Most in Colombia did not. Ask the people in Cali, Colombia what they think of Escobar..