Question about the The Krays

Old school, "honest" criminals. They pretty much ran the place better than the police ever could and they had a very civic minded sense of responsibility. If you messed with women or children they would destroy you.

mark renton

scudzilla wrote: »

The Kray's self policed the area, hardly any innocents were caught up in violence

If they paid up on time...

3ndahalfof6

They were the London IRA, tried to look after the people while gaining status, once a vacume is created someone will fill it, before they died they did reflect thinking they left to much scum on the steets (the people who gave a fook about nobody).

p to the e

I think they were thought of as "ordinary decent criminals" if such a thing exists. They were the well dressed gents whilst the Richardsons were the vicious toe cutters. You get it with the likes of other old school British thugs like Roy Shaw aswell. Would pull your head off for looking at him wrong but tries to come off as a gent by saying he doesn't hit women. We had something similar with Martin Cahill. He was portrayed as a modern day Robin Hood when he was actually drug dealing scum.

admiralofthefleet

they hadnt a patch on brick top tbh

Winty

Jumboman wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why the The Krays are so popular in London ?

I just dont understand how people can look up to these Scumbags.

The way people talk about them you would swear they ran some sort of Charity :rolleyes:

Why do some Irish worship McGuinness and Adams?

Because they had a big firm, and that firm had brothers, sister, wives, aunts, etc etc. And the Money flowed down from the Krays. Also, people are funny. I grew up in a very rough but wealthy neck of the woods, our next door neighbour was an arms dealer, a Turkish guy. Down the road was an Italian who ran a large chunk of Mayfair.

Both were the most charismatic men you could ever meet and one has remained a close friend throughout my life, his son was more of a brother to me than a friend as we grew up. I doubt you would find anyone to say a bad word about either men, anyone who knew them that is, they were just life enhancers to be around and tbh, I pretty much hero worshipped both of them when I was growing up. I still regard one of them as the best man I have ever had the pleasure to know. They would be regarded as scum by a large swathe of society.

On a similar vein, I've got to know a very few of Irelands best known em, characters over the years, largely regarded very badly by socity as a whole, but I got on very well with them and they were very charismatic as well with a huge amount of people who would not say a bad word about them. An equal amount would not have a good word, and probably rightly.

As a rough example, when I lived in London, there was never a single burglary, car theft or mugging for a large radius around our Home street, which included a large public park. That engenders a certain popularity amongst the neighbours and shop keepers. It was just not to be done. My own father was a great friend of both men and they would often sit out in the public park all day eating and drinking together and chatting. If you were a visiting troublemaker, there was an excellent chance one of them would decide to use you for open target practice and there was not a hope in hell any authorities would intervene. Literally. Obviously, I'm talking about so called murderers, drug dealers, gangsters, pimps, but if they are your friends, you don't see that side, or you choose to ignore it - you just see the person you know face to face. I am anything but naive, I know there is a duplicity of character there, but on a certain level of interaction, they are great people to be around as friends. Probably less so as enemies.:) Why do you think Love/Hate is so popular, as an example.

And for those who will mouth off that I'm a fantasist etc, whatever. My old lads dead, he worked his whole life and was a totally honest but very tough man with some colourful friends. I'm a builder and I'm also straight as a die. You don't choose where you grow up and I emigrated to make a different life for my kids.

Witcher

orestes wrote: »

Old school, "honest" criminals. They pretty much ran the place better than the police ever could and they had a very civic minded sense of responsibility. If you messed with women or children they would destroy you.

That's pretty much it, they were seen as being 'honourable' criminals, locals would have looked to them for justice etc. Same with local mafia figures in NY back in the early 20th century...the public in the area gave respect and they got it back, people overlooked their crimes because they generally didn't happen on their doorstep..out of sight out of mind and they probably knew them growing up, knew their parents, aunts uncles etc.

A simpler explanation would be that anyone with power will be popular regardless of how it was gained or is exercised.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Outlaws are often romantically portrayed in the media. In the Krays case people in their neighbourhood looked up to them because they made something of themselves, they didn't care about the means they used, the Krays took everything they wanted, they didn't earn it, but they endeared themselves to a lot of people.

The same thing happens the world over. In NYC 'made men' during the heyday of the Mafia were looked upon as gods, gangsters like Carlo Gambino and Lucky Luciano joined the city's high society during the 30s and 40s. In more recent times you had hoods like John Gotti being heralded as the 'King of New York'. Parts of the city came to a standstill for his funeral in 2002.

Modern gangsters in the city are still respected, although thankfully the Mafia no longer has a stranglehold on enterprise like it once did.

Did i hear somewhere that the Krays were involved in supplying kids to child molester rings back in the day?

Senna

Pottler wrote: »

Because they had a big firm, and that firm had brothers, sister, wives, aunts, etc etc. And the Money flowed down from the Krays. Also, people are funny. I grew up in a very rough but wealthy neck of the woods, our next door neighbour was an arms dealer, a Turkish guy. Down the road was an Italian who ran a large chunk of Mayfair.

Both were the most charismatic men you could ever meet and one has remained a close friend throughout my life, his son was more of a brother to me than a friend as we grew up. I doubt you would find anyone to say a bad word about either men, anyone who knew them that is, they were just life enhancers to be around and tbh, I pretty much hero worshipped both of them when I was growing up. I still regard one of them as the best man I have ever had the pleasure to know. They would be regarded as scum by a large swathe of society.

On a similar vein, I've got to know a very few of Irelands best known em, characters over the years, largely regarded very badly by socity as a whole, but I got on very well with them and they were very charismatic as well with a huge amount of people who would not say a bad word about them. An equal amount would not have a good word, and probably rightly.

As a rough example, when I lived in London, there was never a single burglary, car theft or mugging for a large radius around our Home street, which included a large public park. That engenders a certain popularity amongst the neighbours and shop keepers. It was just not to be done. My own father was a great friend of both men and they would often sit out in the public park all day eating and drinking together and chatting. If you were a visiting troublemaker, there was an excellent chance one of them would decide to use you for open target practice and there was not a hope in hell any authorities would intervene. Literally. Obviously, I'm talking about so called murderers, drug dealers, gangsters, pimps, but if they are your friends, you don't see that side, or you choose to ignore it - you just see the person you know face to face. I am anything but naive, I know there is a duplicity of character there, but on a certain level of interaction, they are great people to be around as friends. Probably less so as enemies.:) Why do you think Love/Hate is so popular, as an example.

And for those who will mouth off that I'm a fantasist etc, whatever. My old lads dead, he worked his whole life and was a totally honest but very tough man with some colourful friends. I'm a builder and I'm also straight as a die. You don't choose where you grow up and I emigrated to make a different life for my kids.

People are judged by all their actions, not just if they were nice to speak to. Both your neighbours were scumbags that probably ruined dozens, if not hundreds, of lifes.

Seedy Arling wrote: »

Did i hear somewhere that the Krays were involved in supplying kids to child molester rings back in the day?

Not a chance in hell, they would have been more likely to kill child molesters than help them.

orestes wrote: »

Not a chance in hell, they would have been more likely to kill child molesters than help them.

I just googled it. There seems to be a lot of speculation out there about it.

Senna wrote: »

People are judged by all their actions, not just if they were nice to speak to. Both your neighbours were scumbags that probably ruined dozens, if not hundreds, of lifes.

Probably true, to you. They were not scumbags to me, they were businessmen who happened to be in illegal businesses. I'm not going to defend them, I'm just giving my honest view. I'm also not getting into keyboard warriorship, but I never heard anyone call them a scumbag, ever, I suppose you just grow up with different views of people. I was just giving my perspective anyway, not looking for a row or a debate really.

Seedy Arling wrote: »

I just googled it. There seems to be a lot of speculation out there about it.

Anything is possible, if it were true as it would cast the way people view them in a very different light. Can you post any links to articles?

Pottler wrote: »

Probably true, to you. They were not scumbags to me, they were businessmen who happened to be in illegal businesses. I'm not going to defend them, I'm just giving my honest view. I'm also not getting into keyboard warriorship, but I never heard anyone call them a scumbag, ever, I suppose you just grow up with different views of people. I was just giving my perspective anyway, not looking for a row or a debate really.

You're sort of missing the point of discussion forums there then horse.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I've noticed the same deference is shown to these new breed of Dublin criminals. The outpouring of grief from many when Alan Ryan was shot interested me, you'd people ringing in to talk shows saying what a great chap he was. I'm sure he didn't seem like such a nice guy to the people he extorted. I didn't know him but I do know that he got himself into that life and he paid the ultimate price for his choice, that's the gangster game if you want to roll the dice, don't whinge when it goes against you.

orestes wrote: »

Not a chance in hell, they would have been more likely to kill child molesters than help them.

Not Ronnie, he had issues tbf, I've often heard it said, not that I'd have a first hand genuine clue really. I'd have waay more time for the Richardsons tbh, they were really just very very tough businessmen as opposed to outright gangsters as they are always portrayed.

orestes wrote: »

Anything is possible, if it were true as it would cast the way people view them in a very different light. Can you post any links to articles?

Can't really see any articles. Just see a lot of blog stuff. Could be the tin foil hat brigade at it.

Seedy Arling wrote: »

You're sort of missing the point of discussion forums there then horse.

I'm not Seedy, usually I'd debate or mock anything. This is just somthing I'd have a view of my own on and wouldn't really care what anyone else thought of that, it would not change my view one bit, tbh. IRL I'd be a very open person, I've discussed this face to face with plenty of people and make no bones about what was what.

Pottler wrote: »

I'm not Seedy, usually I'd debate or mock anything. This is just somthing I'd have a view of my own on and wouldn't really care what anyone else thought of that, it would not change my view one bit, tbh.

Ah fair enough, but if there's one place you're going to get a debate or a row in, its in this kip.

Sertus

Jumboman wrote: »

Can anyone tell me why the The Krays are so popular in London ?

I just dont understand how people can look up to these Scumbags.

The way people talk about them you would swear they ran some sort of Charity :rolleyes:

Why did most Irish people look up to, and fawn over, CJ, Bertie and their pals, even though they knew they were rotten to the core ?

padd b1975

orestes wrote: »

If you messed with women or children they would destroy you.

Only if you messed with the kids Ronnie messed with.

DEFTLEFTHAND

John Bindon was another London gangster who was highly regarded, he ingratiated himself into the aristocracy, he even got invited to holiday with Princess Anne's party in Mustique, he claimed to have had sex with her on the trip.

He also had a brief spell working for Led Zeppelin's security until he pulled a gun on a roadie one night. In 1979 he walked for a murder in a highly controversial trial where some argued his celebrity status influenced the jury's decision.