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Landlord wants 'Fee' for allowing my own couch in rental apartment

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    #32
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    I'd be looking for a new place. But don't be surprised if he tries to charge you on the way out (from your deposit) for storage. Never heard of this before but he sounds like an a..


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    #33
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    The story has changed a bit since it started. You shouldn't really move into a place unless you are 100% happy with a place and the LL/agent has done all he says they are going to do. Especially no money exchanged.

    However the LL here is showing all the signs of being trouble. I'd move out as soon as possible. You'll only have more grief with him.


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    #34
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    KevinGossRoss wrote: »
    But even if he doesn't want to move it what I really want to know is if he can charge us a fee to have a new couch on the property in addition to his furniture.

    Have you confirmed with him that indeed he is trying to charge you to have your furniture in the property, rather than charging to take the existing furniture out to be put into storage?


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    #35
    KevinGossRoss
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭KevinGossRoss


    Boston B How has the story changed? Will be leaving as soon as the lease is up and just not contact him for anything until that time.

    djimi he has missed two apointments to see us but that is what he said. When I phoned him about it his only response was 'no' and 'can't do that'. He wanted to know where I purchased the couch and if I could send it back or not. Maybe he is worried that we'd leave it on his property and he'll have to arrange dumping. But that is what the deposit is there for, isn't it?


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    #36
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    The detail of the storage area. Its gone from an unknown area that may not be suitable. To an ideal storage area.

    I was imagining what happened to a LL I know, the tenants moves loads of furniture, curtains, and electrical items out to a garden shed and said nothing. When the LL when to inspect the house he discovered all this stuff in the shed completely ruined from the damp.

    Ideally there should be no need to use the deposit. Who wants that grief. That said he doesn't seem that open to striking a deal.


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    #37
    KevinGossRoss
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭KevinGossRoss


    Yeah I went to investigate the storage area. Should have said. It has a sliding glass door and previously I only looked at it from afar.


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    #38
    KevinGossRoss
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭KevinGossRoss


    An update for you. Finally. The LL came to see us finally. On a lazy Saturday with my girlfriend and I under a blanket on the new couch with the local walkabout cat (not ours - came in through the window) curled up with us. Caught us completely off guard. Since we aren't allowed animals he had us under his thumb from the moment he walked in. He's been doing this for a while obviously.

    He was extremely aggressive at first and demanded that the couch be removed. He explained that previous tenants had purchased a couch and left it in one of his apartments in the past and he wanted this fee of his to cover removing the couch should we move without taking it with. I then calmly tried to convince him that that was what our deposit was for to which the LL said we'd move without paying the last month's rent. He seemed furious the entire time and even accused us of having more people living in the place. Eventually we convinced him that our contract specifically prevents us from doing that and that we'd need a reference from him if we were ever to move in somewhere new.

    All sorted now though. We've learnt a lot about dealing with landlords in the ROI and will be doing everything by the book from here on out. Everything in writing to the agency, not the landlord. We're still sitting with his benches in our house but that'll just be a lesson for us and a reminder till we move out at the end of our lease. Thanks everyone for your help.


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    #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    He's definitely trouble and you should not plan on staying any longer than you need to. There are plenty of good landlords and agencies out there. I'm a bit confused by the reference to both the agent and the landlord. If he has appointed an proper agent, then you should only deal with them. He's an idiot if he appoints an agent and then gets involved himself.


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    #40
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    KevinGossRoss wrote: »
    ...I then calmly tried to convince him that that was what our deposit was for to ...

    Its not you know. The point of the deposit is that you want it back and will treat the place right in order to get your deposit back.

    Telling the LL you don't expect it back, means he can't rely on it for security now, and as you don't expect it back, why would you pay the last months rent.

    While that may not be your intention, its what happens a lot.


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    #41
    KevinGossRoss
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭KevinGossRoss


    I know yes. I want my deposit back but what I am trying to communicate is that it is his insurance that I'll remove the couch. If I don't he is entitled to use that money to dispose of it so how could he possibly charge me to have the couch in here?

    How do people not pay the last month's rent? Is it that common here? It would seem that the LL/tenant relationship in Dublin is very hostile.


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    #42
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    BostonB wrote: »
    Its not you know. The point of the deposit is that you want it back and will treat the place right in order to get your deposit back.

    Telling the LL you don't expect it back, means he can't rely on it for security now, and as you don't expect it back, why would you pay the last months rent.

    While that may not be your intention, its what happens a lot.

    The deposit is there to be used by the landlord for any undue expense that they may incur as a result of the tenants actions during the tenancy. This means covering unpaid rent, and unpaid bills that the landlord is liable for, repairs and cleaning beyond normal wear and tear etc.

    In this case if the tenant were to leave behind anything that the landlord would have to pay to have removed/disposed of then they would be well within their rights to deduct the cost from the deposit. The OP is absolutely correct about this.


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    #43
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    KevinGossRoss wrote: »
    I know yes. I want my deposit back but what I am trying to communicate is that it is his insurance that I'll remove the couch. If I don't he is entitled to use that money to dispose of it so how could he possibly charge me to have the couch in here?

    How do people not pay the last month's rent? Is it that common here? It would seem that the LL/tenant relationship in Dublin is very hostile.

    Yeah its pretty common alright that people try to use the deposit as the last months rent. Seems to stem from the fear that the landlord will use any excuse not to return the deposit, so its seen as an easy way of preempting the situation.

    It seems to me to be a bit of a vicious cycle; too many landlords act the prick when it comes to returning deposits, and as a result tenants who have been burned in the past take matters into their own hands. Just serves to create the us vs them mentality that seems to exist in the rental market in this country when it comes to tenants and landlords.

    In your case did the landlord suggest that this "charge" would be refunded along with your other deposit when you remove the couch?


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    #44
    SuperGrover
    Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭SuperGrover


    KevinGossRoss wrote: »
    It would seem that the LL/tenant relationship in Dublin is very hostile.

    You were just unlucky. Plenty of nice places / landlords. Start looking for somewhere else.


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    #45
    ectoraige
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    KevinGossRoss wrote: »
    An update for you. Finally. The LL came to see us finally. On a lazy Saturday with my girlfriend and I under a blanket on the new couch with the local walkabout cat (not ours - came in through the window) curled up with us. Caught us completely off guard. Since we aren't allowed animals he had us under his thumb from the moment he walked in. He's been doing this for a while obviously.

    Just to pick up on this, did he just let himself in to your apartment? If he did, that's well out of order and should not be permitted.


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    #46
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    ectoraige wrote: »
    Just to pick up on this, did he just let himself in to your apartment? If he did, that's well out of order and should not be permitted.

    I meant to pick up on this as well. The landlord is not permitted to just show up at your door and you have every right to refuse him entry to the property if he does. Legally you are entitled to appropriate notice of an intended visit (usually a minimum of 24 hours), and at your convenience, not theirs (basically they cannot tell you to be there at a certain time and expect to be let in).

    If they just let themselves into the property unannounced they are breaking the law in a big way.

    You would do well to remind your landlord of this, in writing would probably be the best, and advise them that if it happens again you will have no choice but to take a case against them with the PRTB.


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    #47
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    djimi wrote: »
    The deposit is there to be used by the landlord for any undue expense that they may incur as a result of the tenants actions during the tenancy. This means covering unpaid rent, and unpaid bills that the landlord is liable for, repairs and cleaning beyond normal wear and tear etc.

    In this case if the tenant were to leave behind anything that the landlord would have to pay to have removed/disposed of then they would be well within their rights to deduct the cost from the deposit. The OP is absolutely correct about this.

    You're missing the point. If a tenant basically declares they expect their deposit (1 months rent) to be used for this and that, that suggests they don't expect their deposit back. (worrying in itself) But if they don't pay their last months rent (which is very common) then the LL has to cover 1 months rent + any other expenses out of the deposit.

    Basically the deposit wouldn't cover it. You'd need a larger deposit to cover it.


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    #48
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    BostonB wrote: »
    You're missing the point. If a tenant basically declares they expect their deposit (1 months rent) to be used for this and that, that suggests they don't expect their deposit back. (worrying in itself) But if they don't pay their last months rent (which is very common) then the LL has to cover 1 months rent + any other expenses out of the deposit.

    Basically the deposit wouldn't cover it. You'd need a larger deposit to cover it.

    I dont think that the OP was suggesting that they intended that their deposit be used to dispose of the couch; the impression that I got was that they were merely pointing out that this kind of thing is what the deposit is there for.

    If anything, the landlord was the one who was pretty much saying that they expected not to be giving the deposit back; both directly when talking about the last months rent, and indirectly when asking for additional money for something that the original deposit should have been more than enough to cover.

    If the landlord doesnt feel that the initial deposit is enough to cover themselves for whatever reason then its up to them to ask for more at the start (ie two months rent instead of one). The way this clown went about things has just created a complete mess and a very uncomfortable situation between landlord and tenant.


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    #49
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I'm not debating that the LL is a muppet.

    But simply that the deposit isn't meant to be used like that. it should not be used at all. Its also sends out all the wrong signals about your intentions.

    The current deposit system is a bonkers anyway. Its no protection for anyone. It should be paid into a 3rd party bond and registered. LL does the same. Then if there's a problem it gets flagged on the register so no one else gets caught the same by either tenant or LL. People with a good history don't get flagged, don't need to passing a months rent around. Its stays in the register the whole time, even if you change tenancies.


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    #50
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    KevinGossRoss wrote: »
    They really are rubbish though. Very old, very dirty and obscenely uncomfortable. Where the leather strips holding the cushions in place have broken he's put bits of wood with nails jutting out at odd angles.

    They don't sound fit for purpose, why didn't you just get him to replace them?


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    #51
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    They don't sound fit for purpose, why didn't you just get him to replace them?

    +1 or pick a better place. Because when you saw that it told you a lot about the LL.


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    #52
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    BostonB wrote: »
    I'm not debating that the LL is a muppet.

    But simply that the deposit isn't meant to be used like that. it should not be used at all. Its also sends out all the wrong signals about your intentions.

    Perhaps the OP wasnt wise to mention it to the landlord like that, but what exactly is the problem with point out to the landlord what the deposit is there for? If the landlord tries to charge an additional cost after you move in and pay the initial deposit because they claim they are afraid that you might cause damage, would it then be wrong to point out to them that this what the initial deposit is to be used for? Its the same thing.

    In an ideal world the deposit would not be needed by the landlord. But it is there as an insurance policy precisely for the kind of situation that the landlord is afraid of happening with having to dispose of furniture.
    BostonB wrote: »
    The current deposit system is a bonkers anyway. Its no protection for anyone. It should be paid into a 3rd party bond and registered. LL does the same. Then if there's a problem it gets flagged on the register so no one else gets caught the same by either tenant or LL. People with a good history don't get flagged, don't need to passing a months rent around. Its stays in the register the whole time, even if you change tenancies.

    I agree; deposits should be handled and managed by a 3rd party. The current system we have is utter nonsense and so open to abuse its unreal. I suspect that it will change in time, but when is anyones guess.


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    #53
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    In the real world the LL knows from experience, they are likely to be left with no rent the last month, so there will be nothing to cover "extras". Telling the LL beforehand was like telling someone you're going to put a "kick me" sign on their back.


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    #54
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    BostonB wrote: »
    In the real world the LL knows from experience, they are likely to be left with no rent the last month, so there will be nothing to cover "extras". Telling the LL beforehand was like telling someone you're going to put a "kick me" sign on their back.

    Where are you getting it that the OP told the landlord anything of the sort? Go back and read what the OP said; when told what the charge was for they informed the landlord that that is what the deposit is there to insure against (which it is). Its not like they told him in no uncertain terms that he was going to be out of pocket at the end of the lease; I dont see anywhere where the OP says they even suggested to the landlord that they wouldnt be paying the last months rent or that they would leave him with an additional expense to incur?

    Thats my reading of it anyway.

    If the landlord does not feel that a months worth of rent as a deposit is sufficient then it is up to them to ask for more at the start.


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    #55
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I might as well just quote myself at this point...
    BostonB wrote: »
    You're missing the point. If a tenant basically declares they expect their deposit (1 months rent) to be used for this and that, that suggests they don't expect their deposit back. (worrying in itself) But if they don't pay their last months rent (which is very common) then the LL has to cover 1 months rent + any other expenses out of the deposit.

    Basically the deposit wouldn't cover it. You'd need a larger deposit to cover it.


    ...and
    BostonB wrote: »
    If the furniture is unfit. Don't rent the place.

    How will the LL move the furniture back? (add something on the deposit for this if its not moved back) Is the storage area suitable, it clean and dry so the furniture won't be damaged. (add something else to the deposit in case its damaged by storage).

    If the agent agreed about the furniture, why are you talking to the LL about it?

    I can save you a call to Threshold. The LL is always wrong.


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    #56
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    djimi wrote: »
    Where are you getting it that the OP told the landlord anything of the sort? ...

    ...that implies that you should take people at face value, rather than reading into things. Unfortunately life's not that simple.

    Like if theres a grotty couch there, its probably not going to be the greatest LL.


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    #57
    KevinGossRoss
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭KevinGossRoss


    Hi there everyone. I was just trying to calm down an angry man and make him see reason. He wanted a non refundable fee from us to have the couch in the apartment. I just reasoned with him that he had our deposit to use in the case that we leave the couch in his department, which we repeatedly told him wouldn't happen. The more we asked him why he thought we'd leave him with something we paid good money for the less reasonable he became.

    This guy has obviously had something happen to him in the past where a bad tenant left him with dirty, broken old furniture which he then had to get rid of. Obviously he is a complete muppet but I can see why he is so aggressive.

    Needless to say the apartment will be cleaner than we found it the day we move out. Ou couch will not be left behind. We're not here to screw anyone over and we sure as hell want our deposit back.


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    #58
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    For me its a none issue. If you are in the place for 6/12 months, who cares about the cost of moving a couch if you've been a good tenant. However many people are just not reasonable. Its their way or the highway. In which case you've got be like one of those US cops and get in their head. So they think its their idea, not yours.


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    #59
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    BostonB wrote: »
    Its not you know. The point of the deposit is that you want it back and will treat the place right in order to get your deposit back.

    Telling the LL you don't expect it back, means he can't rely on it for security now, and as you don't expect it back, why would you pay the last months rent.

    While that may not be your intention, its what happens a lot.

    Ehh you appear to be reading something into this that AFAIK the OP never said.
    Also it is pretty noticable you don't trust tenants by the implication.
    KevinGossRoss wrote: »
    I know yes. I want my deposit back but what I am trying to communicate is that it is his insurance that I'll remove the couch. If I don't he is entitled to use that money to dispose of it so how could he possibly charge me to have the couch in here?

    How do people not pay the last month's rent? Is it that common here? It would seem that the LL/tenant relationship in Dublin is very hostile.

    People don't pay last months rent because they may have been already screwed by landlords.
    Your landlord already appears a candidate for this type of behaviour and in the past he may have been burnt by tenants who won't take a chance on paying the last months rent in advance.

    I would say a lot of our residential landlords are totally unprofessional.
    They still consider the property theirs so that they can come and go as they like.
    They often furnish the places with castoffs, yet refuse to fix or replace these when they invariably break.
    Then they try and find any excuse under the sun to withhold deposits.

    Saiding that there are some decent ones who get tarnished with the same brush.
    BostonB wrote: »
    In the real world the LL knows from experience, they are likely to be left with no rent the last month, so there will be nothing to cover "extras". Telling the LL beforehand was like telling someone you're going to put a "kick me" sign on their back.

    And in the real world a lot of tenants have been screwed over by landlords who think the deposit is there to be kept and probably cover the decorating that they should do anyway every few years. :rolleyes:

    So far the only one I see putting "kick me" signs on anyone's back is the landlord.
    Oh and the landlord demanding extra fees is telling the tenant I am going to kick you in the ar** when you come looking for your deposit.


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    #60
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    jmayo wrote: »
    Ehh you appear to be reading something into this that AFAIK the OP never said.
    Also it is pretty noticable you don't trust tenants by the implication....

    I've actually posted from both sides of the fence, and already said you can't take ANYONE at face value. Actions speak louder than words....
    BostonB wrote: »
    ...However the LL here is showing all the signs of being trouble. I'd move out as soon as possible. You'll only have more grief with him....
    BostonB wrote: »
    ...that implies that you should take people at face value, rather than reading into things. Unfortunately life's not that simple.

    Like if theres a grotty couch there, its probably not going to be the greatest LL.

    But you choose to only quote one side of it.


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    #61
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    jmayo wrote: »
    ....And in the real world a lot of tenants have been screwed over by landlords who think the deposit is there to be kept and probably cover the decorating that they should do anyway every few years. :rolleyes:

    So far the only one I see putting "kick me" signs on anyone's back is the landlord.
    Oh and the landlord demanding extra fees is telling the tenant I am going to kick you in the ar** when you come looking for your deposit.

    Yes we've been here already, got the T-Shirt etc.
    BostonB wrote: »
    I'm not debating that the LL is a muppet.

    But simply that the deposit isn't meant to be used like that. it should not be used at all. Its also sends out all the wrong signals about your intentions.

    The current deposit system is a bonkers anyway. Its no protection for anyone. It should be paid into a 3rd party bond and registered. LL does the same. Then if there's a problem it gets flagged on the register so no one else gets caught the same by either tenant or LL. People with a good history don't get flagged, don't need to passing a months rent around. Its stays in the register the whole time, even if you change tenancies.


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