Landlord wants 'Fee' for allowing my own couch in rental apartment

KevinGossRoss

I'm renting a little one bedroom apartment in Ranelagh at €700 with my girlfriend. The place came with terrible old bench type 'sofas'. When the agent showed us the place we mentioned that we'd eventually need to get something more comfy and he didn't object to the idea. We tried to get hold of the landlord for over a week to ask him if he could move the two seater into a storage area he has on the property and get a new, actual sofa. He didn't reply to texts and didn't answer his phone (which rang and then went to voicemail). We found a great deal for a second hand two seater sofa on Gumtree and decided to just take it. We moved it into the already cramped flat and kept trying to get hold of the landlord. Eventually I sent a text asking if I could leave the sofa in the hallway (plenty of space) and immediately got a reply of 'Don't remove any furniture from the apartment'. When I phoned him to discuss the matter he told me that 1. None of the furniture would be allowed to be removed and 2. We aren't allowed any of our own furniture and that we'd have to pay a fee to keep it there. He's coming over tomorrow to negotiate.

Obviously he doesn't have to remove his benches if he doesn't want to but it really isn't a big deal. My girlfriend and I could do it in 10 minutes. But that is fine. If he wants to be difficult there isn't much we can do.

All I want to know is whether charging a fee to bring your own furniture into a (semi) furnished apartment is normal. And if it is, where does it end? Can I bring in a coffee table? A desk? Can I bring clothes? Is he going to ask me money to keep my plates in the cabinets next?

P_1

That doesn't sound right to me at all

Maybe he has his wires crossed.

AFAIK he is entitled to charge you for storage of the old couch if you want it out but I seriously doubt he can charge you to use a new couch in the flat.

djimi

The only thing I can think is that he has nowhere to store the existing furniture and would have to pay for somewhere to leave it. If he has the storage space as you say then I have no idea what his objection would be, and why he would possibly be trying to charge you to bring in your own furniture.

Best thing to do is talk to him and see what he says. Although in fairness you probably should have confirmed what the story was with the existing furniture before you went out and bought a new couch, especially if space is tight.

KevinGossRoss

Yeah I suppose. It was just such a great deal and the owner needed it to go in a hurry. I think he (The Landlord) is just trying to swindle us for more cash. I'll update this thread post talk with the landlord. Not paying to have my own couch in an apartment.

seamus

He can't charge you a supplementary fee for having everyday property in your rented accommodation. If you were living elsewhere and only using the flat for storage that may be a different matter, but there are no circumstances under which it would be allowable to charge a fee for keeping your own property in your home.

That said, he is under no obligation to remove the existing furniture from the flat.

headlikea

This doesn't sound right at all.I would recommend that you get in touch with "Threshold" about this issue and they will be able to advise you and tell you your rights: http://www.threshold.ie/

Lux23

I don't know if this would suit you but maybe tell when you leave you have no problem leaving the new furniture with him? That way he can dump the weird benches and you don't have to pay for storage.

djimi

headlikea wrote: »

This doesn't sound right at all.I would recommend that you get in touch with "Threshold" about this issue and they will be able to advise you and tell you your rights: http://www.threshold.ie/

I would hold off speaking to the likes of Threshold until the situation has been clarified. I suspect that there are crossed wires here somewhere; that the landlord is looking to charge because he will have to pay to store the existing furniture, rather than to have new furniture brought in. The chat with the landlord should make things a bit clearer.

headlikea

Yes, maybe, but it's bad form on the landlord's part not responding to his tenants initial texts/calls. Also, I'm sure the benches could be stored in a shed or put in another property if he has any. Keep us updated on the outcome of this KevinGossRoss.

StillWaters

Furniture storage costs money. I think it was out of order to expect the LL to remove and store the existing furniture without agreement. I'm not surprised he is peed off.

listermint

StillWaters wrote: »

Furniture storage costs money. I think it was out of order to expect the LL to remove and store the existing furniture without agreement. I'm not surprised he is peed off.

You dont actually know the details of this at all.

So your comments are quite perplexing.

StillWaters

listermint wrote: »

You dont actually know the details of this at all.

So your comments are quite perplexing.

Eh, I know that furniture storage costs money (and time).

strandroad

StillWaters wrote: »

Furniture storage costs money. I think it was out of order to expect the LL to remove and store the existing furniture without agreement. I'm not surprised he is peed off.

It also depends on the condition of the original sofa. If it was old/dingy/lumpy to the point of being unsuitable for use, would the landlord be right to expect that it's left there?

BostonB

If the furniture is unfit. Don't rent the place.

How will the LL move the furniture back? (add something on the deposit for this if its not moved back) Is the storage area suitable, it clean and dry so the furniture won't be damaged. (add something else to the deposit in case its damaged by storage).

If the agent agreed about the furniture, why are you talking to the LL about it?

I can save you a call to Threshold. The LL is always wrong.

StillWaters

mhge wrote: »

It also depends on the condition of the original sofa. If it was old/dingy/lumpy to the point of being unsuitable for use, would the landlord be right to expect that it's left there?

Like bostonb said, if it's too grotty, don't rent it or negotiate it's replacement at the start of the lease.

You cannot rent the place and then go about replacing large pieces of furniture expecting the LL to store the original.

Mad stuff altogether!

strandroad

StillWaters wrote: »

Like bostonb said, if it's too grotty, don't rent it or negotiate it's replacement at the start of the lease.

You cannot rent the place and then go about replacing large pieces of furniture expecting the LL to store the original.

Mad stuff altogether!

But they did tell the agent that they would want to replace it.

StillWaters

mhge wrote: »

But they did tell the agent that they would want to replace it.

They did not get the Agent or the Landlords permission or consent to do so. Best they got was a non objection to a casual comment during viewing, which in my book is not sufficient to go off buy a sofa and ask the LL to store the old one.

the_syco

KevinGossRoss wrote: »

We tried to get hold of the landlord for over a week to ask him if he could move the two seater into a storage area he has on the property and get a new, actual sofa.

How big is this storage area? Is it empty or full at the moment?

Morte

Does the rental of the apartment include use of the storage area or a designated portion of it? If it does just move the bench there yourself and move it back when you take the sofa with you at the end. If it's shared with the other apartments they rightly won't put up with it if the bench takes up half the storage space. Likewise if you have no right to the storage space the landlord might have plans to use it for something else. Just because it's free at the moment doesn't mean you've the right to dump stuff there.

When you move out the landlord will need the bench back so the new tenant can use it. It's your responsiblity to make sure it's still there, not his.

anuprising

you cant store a sofa in the hallway of a multi occupancy dwelling ,its a fire hazzard and a blocker to an escape route in the event of evacuation

KevinGossRoss

Fair enough. I did say that the LL doesn't have to move the couch if he doesn't want to. That I can't argue with and I should have confirmed that we needed to replace the benches more clearly. They really are rubbish though. Very old, very dirty and obscenely uncomfortable. Where the leather strips holding the cushions in place have broken he's put bits of wood with nails jutting out at odd angles. We're new in Ireland, so all this hostility to a simple request seems strange to us. We live and learn and next time I rent a place I'll be more thorough in those respects. Obviously the agent will side with the LL and not with us if we raise the issue with them.

the_syco the storage area is really big, and is less than half full. It currently has a number of leather couches in it as well as a couple of desks and other odds and ends. It is on the property.

Again. I know he doesn't have to move it but what I'm not sure about is that he is insisting on charging me a fee for me to have my couch in the apartment. Not his couch, my couch. No work for him, no risk for him. Nothing to remove, nothing to store. Also, he's missed two planned meetings thus far. I waited around all of yesterday eve and morning for him.

Sadderday

your getting jipped

KevinGossRoss

Which is what I thought.

Tar.Aldarion

Sounds ridiculous, I'd be looking for a new place, the landlord us so bad already on something so simple

KevinGossRoss

Morte wrote: »

Does the rental of the apartment include use of the storage area or a designated portion of it? If it does just move the bench there yourself and move it back when you take the sofa with you at the end. If it's shared with the other apartments they rightly won't put up with it if the bench takes up half the storage space. Likewise if you have no right to the storage space the landlord might have plans to use it for something else. Just because it's free at the moment doesn't mean you've the right to dump stuff there.

When you move out the landlord will need the bench back so the new tenant can use it. It's your responsiblity to make sure it's still there, not his.

Again, fair enough. I understand he doesn't need to move the couch. But as a matter of being civil and not a complete knob when the matter in question is so trivial why not humour us and move the couch 20 meters to what looks to be a very dry, very safe storage area where he is currently keeping furniture far superior to what he's making us use? Not that we're asking for anything better. But even if he doesn't want to move it what I really want to know is if he can charge us a fee to have a new couch on the property in addition to his furniture. It is cramped but we'll live with it.

Sadderday

in future say nothing about moving your stuff in. if it doesnt affect their belongings it doesnt matter - just store their belongings somewhere (anywhere - once it will ensure their stuff remains intact, safe and in good nick) until the lease is up or whatever... thats what I did anyway (mate's shed - wrap in plastic and damp-proof)

and here, if you pay a fee your barking mad. just SNAP. Just No way, Not happening, Snap out of it, your not doing him a favour by moving in there so whatever about rights and rules and whatever... just move in with all your stuff for the price agreed or go elsewhere.

mickoneill30

If the old couch is crappy tell him to forget about moving it and any fee. Just tell him you'd like him to replace it with a proper couch.

There are crossed wires here but the landlord is fundamentally right that you don't move any of his furniture out of the flat without his explicit permission in advance.

Oink

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Sounds ridiculous, I'd be looking for a new place, the landlord us so bad already on something so simple

Beat me to it. This is a business transaction, and you are paying him MONEY. And he thinks it's perfectly ok to IGNORE your calls. I would let the lease finish and get the F out.

I'm in a similar situation, and if I could afford it I would move out now, and tell the LL to stick the deposit in ...uh... a safe, dark place. As it is I'll wait til the end of the lease.

Sadderday

yeah but..... what he dont know wont hurt him will it.

Tar.Aldarion

You can leave a lease if you find somebody else to stay, I'd do that. As for deposit if you weren't sure of getting it back off someone dicking yoh around like that I wouldn't pay the last month of rent.

handlemaster

I'd be looking for a new place. But don't be surprised if he tries to charge you on the way out (from your deposit) for storage. Never heard of this before but he sounds like an a..

BostonB

The story has changed a bit since it started. You shouldn't really move into a place unless you are 100% happy with a place and the LL/agent has done all he says they are going to do. Especially no money exchanged.

However the LL here is showing all the signs of being trouble. I'd move out as soon as possible. You'll only have more grief with him.

djimi

KevinGossRoss wrote: »

But even if he doesn't want to move it what I really want to know is if he can charge us a fee to have a new couch on the property in addition to his furniture.

Have you confirmed with him that indeed he is trying to charge you to have your furniture in the property, rather than charging to take the existing furniture out to be put into storage?

KevinGossRoss

Boston B How has the story changed? Will be leaving as soon as the lease is up and just not contact him for anything until that time.

djimi he has missed two apointments to see us but that is what he said. When I phoned him about it his only response was 'no' and 'can't do that'. He wanted to know where I purchased the couch and if I could send it back or not. Maybe he is worried that we'd leave it on his property and he'll have to arrange dumping. But that is what the deposit is there for, isn't it?

BostonB

The detail of the storage area. Its gone from an unknown area that may not be suitable. To an ideal storage area.

I was imagining what happened to a LL I know, the tenants moves loads of furniture, curtains, and electrical items out to a garden shed and said nothing. When the LL when to inspect the house he discovered all this stuff in the shed completely ruined from the damp.

Ideally there should be no need to use the deposit. Who wants that grief. That said he doesn't seem that open to striking a deal.

KevinGossRoss

Yeah I went to investigate the storage area. Should have said. It has a sliding glass door and previously I only looked at it from afar.

KevinGossRoss

An update for you. Finally. The LL came to see us finally. On a lazy Saturday with my girlfriend and I under a blanket on the new couch with the local walkabout cat (not ours - came in through the window) curled up with us. Caught us completely off guard. Since we aren't allowed animals he had us under his thumb from the moment he walked in. He's been doing this for a while obviously.

He was extremely aggressive at first and demanded that the couch be removed. He explained that previous tenants had purchased a couch and left it in one of his apartments in the past and he wanted this fee of his to cover removing the couch should we move without taking it with. I then calmly tried to convince him that that was what our deposit was for to which the LL said we'd move without paying the last month's rent. He seemed furious the entire time and even accused us of having more people living in the place. Eventually we convinced him that our contract specifically prevents us from doing that and that we'd need a reference from him if we were ever to move in somewhere new.

All sorted now though. We've learnt a lot about dealing with landlords in the ROI and will be doing everything by the book from here on out. Everything in writing to the agency, not the landlord. We're still sitting with his benches in our house but that'll just be a lesson for us and a reminder till we move out at the end of our lease. Thanks everyone for your help.

He's definitely trouble and you should not plan on staying any longer than you need to. There are plenty of good landlords and agencies out there. I'm a bit confused by the reference to both the agent and the landlord. If he has appointed an proper agent, then you should only deal with them. He's an idiot if he appoints an agent and then gets involved himself.

BostonB

KevinGossRoss wrote: »

...I then calmly tried to convince him that that was what our deposit was for to ...

Its not you know. The point of the deposit is that you want it back and will treat the place right in order to get your deposit back.

Telling the LL you don't expect it back, means he can't rely on it for security now, and as you don't expect it back, why would you pay the last months rent.

While that may not be your intention, its what happens a lot.

KevinGossRoss

I know yes. I want my deposit back but what I am trying to communicate is that it is his insurance that I'll remove the couch. If I don't he is entitled to use that money to dispose of it so how could he possibly charge me to have the couch in here?

How do people not pay the last month's rent? Is it that common here? It would seem that the LL/tenant relationship in Dublin is very hostile.

djimi

BostonB wrote: »

Its not you know. The point of the deposit is that you want it back and will treat the place right in order to get your deposit back.

Telling the LL you don't expect it back, means he can't rely on it for security now, and as you don't expect it back, why would you pay the last months rent.

While that may not be your intention, its what happens a lot.

The deposit is there to be used by the landlord for any undue expense that they may incur as a result of the tenants actions during the tenancy. This means covering unpaid rent, and unpaid bills that the landlord is liable for, repairs and cleaning beyond normal wear and tear etc.

In this case if the tenant were to leave behind anything that the landlord would have to pay to have removed/disposed of then they would be well within their rights to deduct the cost from the deposit. The OP is absolutely correct about this.

djimi

KevinGossRoss wrote: »

I know yes. I want my deposit back but what I am trying to communicate is that it is his insurance that I'll remove the couch. If I don't he is entitled to use that money to dispose of it so how could he possibly charge me to have the couch in here?

How do people not pay the last month's rent? Is it that common here? It would seem that the LL/tenant relationship in Dublin is very hostile.

Yeah its pretty common alright that people try to use the deposit as the last months rent. Seems to stem from the fear that the landlord will use any excuse not to return the deposit, so its seen as an easy way of preempting the situation.

It seems to me to be a bit of a vicious cycle; too many landlords act the prick when it comes to returning deposits, and as a result tenants who have been burned in the past take matters into their own hands. Just serves to create the us vs them mentality that seems to exist in the rental market in this country when it comes to tenants and landlords.

In your case did the landlord suggest that this "charge" would be refunded along with your other deposit when you remove the couch?

SuperGrover

KevinGossRoss wrote: »

It would seem that the LL/tenant relationship in Dublin is very hostile.

You were just unlucky. Plenty of nice places / landlords. Start looking for somewhere else.

ectoraige

KevinGossRoss wrote: »

An update for you. Finally. The LL came to see us finally. On a lazy Saturday with my girlfriend and I under a blanket on the new couch with the local walkabout cat (not ours - came in through the window) curled up with us. Caught us completely off guard. Since we aren't allowed animals he had us under his thumb from the moment he walked in. He's been doing this for a while obviously.

Just to pick up on this, did he just let himself in to your apartment? If he did, that's well out of order and should not be permitted.

djimi

ectoraige wrote: »

Just to pick up on this, did he just let himself in to your apartment? If he did, that's well out of order and should not be permitted.

I meant to pick up on this as well. The landlord is not permitted to just show up at your door and you have every right to refuse him entry to the property if he does. Legally you are entitled to appropriate notice of an intended visit (usually a minimum of 24 hours), and at your convenience, not theirs (basically they cannot tell you to be there at a certain time and expect to be let in).

If they just let themselves into the property unannounced they are breaking the law in a big way.

You would do well to remind your landlord of this, in writing would probably be the best, and advise them that if it happens again you will have no choice but to take a case against them with the PRTB.

BostonB

djimi wrote: »

The deposit is there to be used by the landlord for any undue expense that they may incur as a result of the tenants actions during the tenancy. This means covering unpaid rent, and unpaid bills that the landlord is liable for, repairs and cleaning beyond normal wear and tear etc.

In this case if the tenant were to leave behind anything that the landlord would have to pay to have removed/disposed of then they would be well within their rights to deduct the cost from the deposit. The OP is absolutely correct about this.

You're missing the point. If a tenant basically declares they expect their deposit (1 months rent) to be used for this and that, that suggests they don't expect their deposit back. (worrying in itself) But if they don't pay their last months rent (which is very common) then the LL has to cover 1 months rent + any other expenses out of the deposit.

Basically the deposit wouldn't cover it. You'd need a larger deposit to cover it.

djimi

BostonB wrote: »

You're missing the point. If a tenant basically declares they expect their deposit (1 months rent) to be used for this and that, that suggests they don't expect their deposit back. (worrying in itself) But if they don't pay their last months rent (which is very common) then the LL has to cover 1 months rent + any other expenses out of the deposit.

Basically the deposit wouldn't cover it. You'd need a larger deposit to cover it.

I dont think that the OP was suggesting that they intended that their deposit be used to dispose of the couch; the impression that I got was that they were merely pointing out that this kind of thing is what the deposit is there for.

If anything, the landlord was the one who was pretty much saying that they expected not to be giving the deposit back; both directly when talking about the last months rent, and indirectly when asking for additional money for something that the original deposit should have been more than enough to cover.

If the landlord doesnt feel that the initial deposit is enough to cover themselves for whatever reason then its up to them to ask for more at the start (ie two months rent instead of one). The way this clown went about things has just created a complete mess and a very uncomfortable situation between landlord and tenant.

BostonB

I'm not debating that the LL is a muppet.

But simply that the deposit isn't meant to be used like that. it should not be used at all. Its also sends out all the wrong signals about your intentions.

The current deposit system is a bonkers anyway. Its no protection for anyone. It should be paid into a 3rd party bond and registered. LL does the same. Then if there's a problem it gets flagged on the register so no one else gets caught the same by either tenant or LL. People with a good history don't get flagged, don't need to passing a months rent around. Its stays in the register the whole time, even if you change tenancies.

runawaybishop

KevinGossRoss wrote: »

They really are rubbish though. Very old, very dirty and obscenely uncomfortable. Where the leather strips holding the cushions in place have broken he's put bits of wood with nails jutting out at odd angles.

They don't sound fit for purpose, why didn't you just get him to replace them?

BostonB

runawaybishop wrote: »

They don't sound fit for purpose, why didn't you just get him to replace them?

+1 or pick a better place. Because when you saw that it told you a lot about the LL.