What "if" Ryanair and MOL got Aer Lingus

sully2010

Eventhough it’s looking very unlikely to happen it would be great to hear peoples opinions on what they think would happen if Michael O' Leary got his hands on Aer Lingus, What do you think his plan is?

Also what would you do if you were in his shoes and ran a merged Ryanair/Aer Lingus group.

My views were around the time of the last bid I thought it was a good idea, Aer Lingus looked in bad shape and the idea of cheaper transatlantic fares sounded good to me. But as the years have gone on and Ryanair’s ever increasing bad attitude to its customers I am now glad it wont happen I think MOL has shot himself in the foot with this attitude and people are quite rightfully scared of an Aer Lingus run by MOL. I used to be proud of Ryanair but now they are almost giving the Irish a bad name. It’s not hard to be nice! Plus the remedies package he has come up I really don’t like the sound of. I cant quite figure out why he wants it AL so much??

If I was in his shoes I would attempt to continue on the good work Mueller is doing with Aer Lingus in creating a hub in Dublin ie Using the Atr's and ferrying people to Dublin to get their US pre clearance and fly transatlantic and reducing costs.

It’s a very attractive proposition but imagine using Ryanair and Aer lingus European short haul aircraft to ferry people from all over Europe to fly transatlantic through Dublin. The US pre clearance is there, the capacity is there with T2, the aircraft is there and the cash, Ryanairs €3 billion or so would help in increasing the long haul fleet. Using knowledge Ryanair have collected on cost cutting, more costs at Aer Lingus could be cut(not to Ryanair's scale) The combined airline group could become a highly competitive outfit.

Finally I would treat the customers better!!

All opinions appreciated.

donvito99

As you say, Ryanair + Aer Lingus would become a highly competitive outfit.

This would be to the detriment of the customer however, monopoly is good for no one but shareholders.

Dogwatch

Ryanair getting Aer Lingus would be disastrous for Dublin Airport as it would give them another virtual monopoly of flights at Dublin. Given the supposed bad blood between MOL and DAA, I don't see a good outcome for everybody.
MOL should retire from Ryanair as I think he has taken it as far as he can. Time for fresh ideas and a change of direction and attitude.

aerhead

Anybody else getting the feeling of déjà vu? *yawns*

Katunga

It would be a very good thing to happen. It would then be possible to get a return transatlantic flight for €200. Hanger 6 would be used proper for C checks not wasted like it currently is. A lot of Aircraft maintenance jobs would be created in Dublin. The two Airline's would be run with different short hall strategies Aer lingus for the corporate roots.
The main reason Ryanair want Aer lingus is for Transatlantic flights because it is already recognised at some USA airports.

Stovepipe

Hi there,
C checks are already being dealt with in DUB by Dublin Aerospace.EI doesn't do them because of the huge cost of tooling up for it and we get our C checks done by Aerospace or the lads in Bordeaux, as slots become available.booking in a C check is often done a year in advance. We don't want MOL in because the first thing he'd do is sack people and I don't want to go on the dole, thanks.Secondly, he'd follow the example of the fellas who bought Man utd and use us as a debt dump. thirdly, we have made huge cost savings, are making money and have a good boss. that'll do.

regards
Stovepipe

Katunga

Stovepipe wrote: »

Hi there,
C checks are already being dealt with in DUB by Dublin Aerospace.EI doesn't do them because of the huge cost of tooling up for it and we get our C checks done by Aerospace or the lads in Bordeaux, as slots become available.booking in a C check is often done a year in advance. We don't want MOL in because the first thing he'd do is sack people and I don't want to go on the dole, thanks.Secondly, he'd follow the example of the fellas who bought Man utd and use us as a debt dump. thirdly, we have made huge cost savings, are making money and have a good boss. that'll do.

regards
Stovepipe

I think you need to read my post again. I never said that C check are not done in Dublin I said they are not done in hanger 6. Yes MOL will sack all the Aer Lingus staff AND will rehire the good one's on new higher paying contracts and have them working on the Job not talking tea breaks every 30 min. Aer lingus is way over staffed as everyone knows.

aerhead

Katunga wrote: »

I think you need to read my post again. I never said that C check are not done in Dublin I said they are not done in hanger 6. Yes MOL will sack all the Aer Lingus staff AND will rehire the good one's on new higher paying contracts and have them working on the Job not talking tea breaks every 30 min. Aer lingus is way over staffed as everyone knows.

*double yawns*

What have you against a tea break you nazi?

sully2010

AIRhead, If this thread is making you yawn so much why dont you just bugger off

aerhead

sully2010 wrote: »

AIRhead, If this thread is making you yawn so much why dont you just bugger off

*yawn yawn yawn*

Re-hashing old threads doesn't make you yawn also? Either you don't come round here much or you're a real life bore. Going by your first post, I'd say the later.

sully2010

<Snip> Personal Abuse

aerhead

sully2010 wrote: »

No I don't come around here much as I have a very busy life, also because unfortunately this forum seems populated by knobs like yourself. If you have seen a thread like this before then why not just stay away from this one instead of being a negative prick, you are obviously very very bored

Busy life of a bore...

I'll be the more mature one here I'll just call you a bore, factual statement, rather than come out with a load of obscenities.

At least this spat has somewhat livened up an otherwise clichéd and full of drivel thread.

Ciao Ciao.

kona

Katunga wrote: »

I think you need to read my post again. I never said that C check are not done in Dublin I said they are not done in hanger 6. Yes MOL will sack all the Aer Lingus staff AND will rehire the good one's on new higher paying contracts and have them working on the Job not talking tea breaks every 30 min. Aer lingus is way over staffed as everyone knows.

Ah yea because Ryanair do base maintenance in hangar 1. He'd asset strip ei and rape your wallet when you want a holiday or emigrate .

What do you think goes on in hangar 6 out of interest?

Katunga

kona wrote: »

Ah yea because Ryanair do base maintenance in hangar 1. He'd asset strip ei and rape your wallet when you want a holiday or emigrate .

No plenty of other airlines wold still fly out of DUB if the take over happens.

kona

Katunga wrote: »

No plenty of other airlines wold still fly out of DUB if the take over happens.

Would they? You obviously don't know how Ryanair deal with competition . So what do you think goes on in hangar 6? Why do you think Ryanair would do base maintenance there? Do you think he's going to pick a few hundred engineers with types out of the sky?

lintdrummer

Anyone who believes MOL would carry out base maintenance in H6 is deluded.

Katunga

lintdrummer wrote: »

Anyone who believes MOL would carry out base maintenance in H6 is deluded.

Why do you think he wanted it a few year's ago?

jonnny68

Would be an absolute nightmare,as if FR are not bad enough already.

Perish tbe thought

kona

Katunga wrote: »

Why do you think he wanted it a few year's ago?

Why do you think he wanted to charge for the jacks, asking easa about standing on flights? Same logic.

sully2010

aerhead wrote: »

Busy life of a bore...

I'll be the more mature one here I'll just call you a bore, factual statement, rather than come out with a load of obscenities.

At least this spat has somewhat livened up an otherwise clichéd and full of drivel thread.

Ciao Ciao.

Bigtime yawn...sad little boy;)

Suasdaguna1

An appalling lack of moderation on this thread.

All it is, is a mud flinging fest......

Jamie2k9

Aer lingus is way over staffed as everyone knows.

What plannet are you on. If Aer Lingus is so over staffed why do they need to take on seasonal cabin crew and ground staff at Dublin. If you flew from DUB the other day you may also say differently.

You will find that its Ryanair that are way overstaffed. A company that forces hundreds of crew to take 4 monhts unpaied leave every winter.

Sikpupi

AND will rehire the good one's on new higher paying contracts

....classic trolling!

Nice one...but went right over the head of most contributors!

Katunga

kona wrote: »

Why do you think he wanted to charge for the jacks, asking easa about standing on flights? Same logic.

If you know anything about aviation you would know charging for the toilets was a poblicity stunt and several people would be willing to pay for standing tickets for short flights eg DUB to Liverpool.

kona

Katunga wrote: »

If you know anything about aviation you would know charging for the toilets was a poblicity stunt and several people would be willing to pay for standing tickets for short flights eg DUB to Liverpool.

Very good

Katunga

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What plannet are you on. If Aer Lingus is so over staffed why do they need to take on seasonal cabin crew and ground staff at Dublin. If you flew from DUB the other day you may also say differently.

You will find that its Ryanair that are way overstaffed. A company that forces hundreds of crew to take 4 monhts unpaied leave every winter.

A lot of Ryanair flights go to seasonal destination.
Aer lingus are over staffed, the reason they are looking for more staff is mainly down to the unions because they think they should have to do even less work and it not efficiently managed.

A large quantity of aircraft engineers are out of work in Dublin so a supply of engineers is available.

kona

Katunga wrote: »

A lot of Ryanair flights go to seasonal destination.
Aer lingus are over staffed, the reason they are looking for more staff is mainly down to the unions because they think they should have to do even less work and it not efficiently managed.

A large quantity of aircraft engineers are out of work in Dublin so a supply of engineers is available.

Most of those engineers have lost their approvals and licenses, to get them back would require them to do ojt. Not as easy as strolling in the door and being let loose at an aircraft . Aer lingus have employed 50 engineers there last month.

aerhead

Katunga wrote: »

A lot of Ryanair flights go to seasonal destination.
Aer lingus are over staffed, the reason they are looking for more staff is mainly down to the unions because they think they should have to do even less work and it not efficiently managed.

A large quantity of aircraft engineers are out of work in Dublin so a supply of engineers is available.

What college did you go to? The Institute of MakeItUpAsYouGoAlong? Let me guess: A Bachelors of Bullology?

No, serious though, when does school start back for you and Sully2010?

aerhead

Suasdaguna1 wrote: »

An appalling lack of moderation on this thread.

All it is, is a mud flinging fest......

The mod lives in New Zealand I think so you'll find there's a 12 hour lag there or therebouts...

Katunga

kona wrote: »

Most of those engineers have lost their approvals and licenses, to get them back would require them to do ojt. Not as easy as strolling in the door and being let loose at an aircraft . Aer lingus have employed 50 engineers there last month.

Yes they did take on engineers how many transfer from Shannon and worked with Dublin Aero. How many contractors in Dub aero would like a full time job with an airline?

kona

Katunga wrote: »

Yes they did take on engineers how many transfer from Shannon and worked with Dublin Aero. How many contractors in Dub aero would like a full time job with an airline?

How many lads in their 40s 50s would want to do shift work!? Not many I'd guess. Line maintenance is a different beast to base. Not many came from Shannon.

I don't see your point here, Ryanair will not do base maintenance in Dublin . The pool of current type approved engineers in Dublin is small and getting smaller due to age/ easa requirements etc.

Katunga

kona wrote: »

How many lads in their 40s 50s would want to do shift work!? Not many I'd guess. Line maintenance is a different beast to base. Not many came from Shannon.

Yes many in their 40s 50s would prefer not to do shift work, but if it was shift work or no job most would choose the job.

kona

Katunga wrote: »

Yes many in their 40s 50s would prefer not to do shift work, but if it was shift work or no job most would choose the job.

But most have a job in Dublin aerospace , city jet, Ryanair, servisair, delta etc? Engineers with types are in demand , you wouldn't be out of a job for long with b1 b2 and a few types.

I'd rather work for anybody but Ryanair in aviation. They just use people.

andy_g

What has been in the water this Christmas? Aerhead banned for a week for his behaivour and trolling.

Sully2010 gets a warning for attacking the poster not the post.

Please report or ignore the trolls in future to those reporting thank you.

Bessarion

sully2010 wrote: »

Eventhough it’s looking very unlikely to happen it would be great to hear peoples opinions on what they think would happen if Michael O' Leary got his hands on Aer Lingus, What do you think his plan is?

Also what would you do if you were in his shoes and ran a merged Ryanair/Aer Lingus group......

All opinions appreciated.

I'll try to follow the OP's idea and ignore the propaganda spouted by a few others.

If FR get to take over EI:
-The deal with RE will be stopped. FR do not like RE, MoL in fact has a personal dislike for Padraig O'Ceallaigh.
(The pursuit of EI also smacks of personal vanity on the part of MoL)

-EI slots will be sold to other operators to generate cash. (This doubles as income and being part of a takeover package)

-All EI staff will be told new contracts or the door. (Precedent...Go)

-The EI shorthaul operation will be drastically scaled back as part of a takeover package.
The EI longhaul operation will be expanded as a LCC longhaul carrier. I cannot guess how FR shorthaul and EI longhaul would interact.

-Any foreign carrier that enters the DUB market will be chased off sharpish. (Precedents exist-Go, EasyJet, Aer Arann?) FR want a monopoly at DUB. Why would such an agressive company allow other airlines into 'their turf' other that being forced to by the EU? They may allow other airlines to enter the market but how long will they stay if being undercut by FR?

-With control of EI, FR would be able to hold the DAA to ransom. (Not that the DAA are deserving of sympathy,but they do need to generate some profi)


In regards to the FR propaganda:
-They will "grow staff at EI"......maybe but at minimum wage levels so the Irish economy doesn't do any better that it already is.

-They also only mention Pilots, Cabin Crew and Engineers in their press release/takeover offer. So I guess that means ALL other functions will be outsourced to handling companies. Not the steady long term employment that the country needs.

-"fill EI aircraft across the Atlantice with E99 fares" EI already have a 80% loadfactor on longhaul.....not bad for a "small regional carrier" The FR ULCC model does not transfer well to longhaul.

-"Aer Lingus need FR to survive" EI have streamlined hugely over the last 3 years and have delivered profits during the worse recession in Irish history. If this debate was takin place in 2007 I would agree with this statement...but so far EI are holding their own...against FR and the other competitors out there.

Jamie2k9

Katunga wrote: »

A lot of Ryanair flights go to seasonal destination.
Aer lingus are over staffed, the reason they are looking for more staff is mainly down to the unions because they think they should have to do even less work and it not efficiently managed.

A large quantity of aircraft engineers are out of work in Dublin so a supply of engineers is available.

And EI don't, I could name 12 routes that are seasonal and that's just from DUB.

donvito99

Bessarion hits it on the head.

While most of us will laud O'Leary for Ryanair's success, one of this country's few MNCs, he will not be allowed to touch Aer Lingus.

Whatever anyone else on this thread says (bitter people for whatever reason :rolleyes: IMO) Ryanair cannibalizing EI would hugely disadvantageous for people looking for choice out of Dublin and Cork, SNN would go no doubt.

You can say bye to cheap fares to the UK and Europe, no matter how cheap he may purport Tatl flights to be. The man is ruthless.

eatmyshorts

Katunga wrote: »

If you know anything about aviation you would know....several people would be willing to pay for standing tickets for short flights eg DUB to Liverpool.

If YOU knew anything about aviation, you would know that that is illegal and will never be approved by safety regulators.

Suasdaguna1

donvito99 wrote: »

Bessarion hits it on the head.
.

Ditto .

Katunga

eatmyshorts wrote: »

If YOU knew anything about aviation, you would know that that is illegal and will never be approved by safety regulators.

That is why MOL was trying to get approval.
He wasn't just going to put a standing area.
In the standing area you would be belted to a fixed surface look in the proposal, it wasn't like the standing area in a bus

Comhrá

That is why MOL was trying to get approval.
He wasn't just going to put a standing area.
In the standing area you would be belted to a fixed surface look in the proposal, it wasn't like the standing area in a bus

Would it be something like this for the shorter FR flights?

Aer Lingus is better :pac:



And priority boarding?

Bessarion

Katunga wrote: »

That is why MOL was trying to get approval.
He wasn't just going to put a standing area.
In the standing area you would be belted to a fixed surface look in the proposal, it wasn't like the standing area in a bus

Its hard enough to get idiots to use their seatbelts....can you really see them being happy with being strapped to a surface........

And the whole idea of the "Mick's standing room" was to fit more pax into a smaller area............so strapping to a surface goes against that theory. (Funny how MoL directly compared it to standing on a bus) Seems you actually thought this was a viable concept rather than a way to reinforce the 'low cost at any cost' mantra that the FR media campaign constantly sprout.

AlekSmart

kona wrote: »

How many lads in their 40s 50s would want to do shift work!? Not many I'd guess. Line maintenance is a different beast to base. Not many came from Shannon.

I don't see your point here, Ryanair will not do base maintenance in Dublin.The pool of current type approved engineers in Dublin is small and getting smaller due to age/ easa requirements etc.complete and total maladministration on the part of Government.

FYP there Kona....

The manner in which the Irish Government allowed such a large and highly regarded skills-base to wither away and die remains a national scandal.

The entire Team Aer Lingus/FLS/SRT scenario resembled a slow-motion train crash during which the Cabinet bobbed up and down like a family of meerkats,with about as much appreciation of the industry involved as those animals have !!

kona

AlekSmart wrote: »

FYP there Kona....

The manner in which the Irish Government allowed such a large and highly regarded skills-base to wither away and die remains a national scandal.

The entire Team Aer Lingus/FLS/SRT scenario resembled a slow-motion train crash during which the Cabinet bobbed up and down like a family of meerkats,with about as much appreciation of the industry involved as those animals have !!

I was gunna mention it along with that spastic Mary coughlan but thought it would be like throwing petrol on the thread !!

Stinicker

I'd prefer to see Aer Lingus and Ryanair in partnership than having Ryanair taking them over. They should form a codeshare and ferry passengers from Europe into Dublin onwards to the US. Aer Lingus should order more A350's and begin operations to East Asia and establish operations in Singapore and there is savage traffic from Ireland to the Far East and Australia look at how well Etihad and Emirates are doing, never mind all the people who already transit via LHR and Amsterdam.

With Aer Lingus going long haul then Ryanair could start to expand out beyond Europe, India has massive aviation potential and have Ryanair establish bases around Asia and Africa and use Aer Lingus for Hub to Hub operations. The two companies together in partnership with some joined up thinking and a muzzle on MOL could become a global airline and it could work were it not for conflicts of interest and lack of ambition. Let Ryanair merge with AirAsia and within a few years you could be looking at Ryanair with 1,000 ac and Aer Lingus moving towards an Emirati like situation, a bigger airport in Dublin or a shanghai like Maglev link to Dublin Terminal 3 (Shannon) and operate the A380 out of Shannon with a 15mins transit from T2 in Dublin.

Bessarion

Stinicker wrote: »

.......With Aer Lingus going long haul then Ryanair could start to expand out beyond Europe, India has massive aviation potential and have Ryanair establish bases around Asia and Africa and use Aer Lingus for Hub to Hub operations. The two companies together in partnership with some joined up thinking and a muzzle on MOL could become a global airline and it could work were it not for conflicts of interest and lack of ambition. Let Ryanair merge with AirAsia and within a few years you could be looking at Ryanair with 1,000 ac and Aer Lingus moving towards an Emirati like situation, a bigger airport in Dublin or a shanghai like Maglev link to Dublin Terminal 3 (Shannon) and operate the A380 out of Shannon with a 15mins transit from T2 in Dublin.

I admire your optimism but its a fantasy.

-Ethiad and Emirates are doing so well due to the massive growth in their Home markets along with their geographical location serving Europe-ME-Asia/Pacific.
EY and EK rely on their massive existing network to fill their DUB-AUH/DXB flights. Any EI attempt to head East would not have this benefit in place and would not be as attractive to customers. (Why would a merged FR/EI need anyone to codeshare with?)

-DUB as a hub is only viable in relation to Europe-USA traffic. Why would Europeans backtrack to go DUB-SIN or similar?

-I agree with the potential of Indian aviation. But I don't see FR moving into that market. One of the huge advantages for FR in the EU is the ease of travel between states. Once you move outside the EI this disappears.

-A maglev in Ireland.....good luck with that. It may even link into the LUAS!

-FR with 1000 aircraft......currently the largest airline in the world has 700+ aircraft (Delta) with United having a little less , even the 2 airlines of IAG only have >400 between them.

sully2010

I would totally agree with the above post. Emirates and Ethiad are taking huge amounts of traffic away from the likes of BA, Malaysian and Singapore among others with very good reason. I have a couple of mates home from Australia for xmas and they say they will never go the Europe-Asia route again and even say they would pay more to go through the UAE. 1 stops instead of 2, the jet lag not being as bad, and avoiding overcrowding in likes of Heathrow being some of the reasons. So the middle eastern airlines have a big competitive advantage.

So Asia will never be viable for AL or FR. But where we do have competitive advantage is Europe - US route. A brand new (pretty empty)terminal and US pre-clearance could and should be big selling points and if done right could create a much bugger market for AL imo. This is what AL have begun to do by flying people from regional areas of the UK through Dublin to America and judging by comments on skytrax they seem to like the service. Huge growth potential.

donkey balls

FR have offered approx €600 million for EI yet they have roughly about 1 billion in cash reserves,Who in their right mind would sell a company for 600 million when that company has more in cash reserve.
Also MOL has said that he would sell the LHR slots to the likes of BA&Virgin they have a price of about €400 million that would leave MOL having to cough up €200 million to get the €600 million,As Stovepipe mentioned he could lump the debt on to EI books just like what happened to Eircom or just get his hands on the cash reserve and pay for the takeover which could mean he gets EI for nothing.
Now if you compare staff from both FR&EI the only thing that they have in common is probably the job titles,70% of FR flight crew are contractors both the CC&ground crew are agency workers in FR a part from a few of the older employees.Were as the EI staff are employees of the airline a lot of people have to remember that the EI staff spend there wages in the local economy.
People should not believe everything that MOL says I know from working at the airport that the pax on the wide bodies are 85% full not to mention the sh*tload of freight flown on both narrow&wide body aircraft.

Zonda999

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0122/363899-ryanair-michael-oleary/

Some more on this in the media today

Under the offer some 43 routes would be given to budget airline Flybe, with British Airways taking three using London’s Heathrow airport.

Flybe is surely in no position to take over that many routes? I can only assume the routes BA would get are Cork, Belfast and Shannon. Now I wonder how long BA would actually keep that Shannon-LHR flight going..

This really would be a disaster for the country if this were to go ahead, not that I think it will..

Suasdaguna1

50% of euro routes cleavered, means massive redundancies for EIN pilots. He basically wants to half the airline ?

donkey balls

Just had a quick look at the link to be honest I don't think Flybe has the aircraft available to take on the EI routes,Also the UPS/TNT take over has been shelved linky. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2013/0115/1224328849125.html

Sometime ago a company I did work for wanted to buy a rival company the EU commission knocked it back due to the dominance the company would have had in the Irish market(non aviation).
Me thinks MOL is clutching at straws the sooner Feb 27th comes and the EU commission makes a decision the better for EI going forward.