GoIreland rewrite history to make it "Irish"

Poster Boy

Cedrus wrote: »

You don't recall correctly. As of many quotes, this is one of the many unprovable. If he did say it it was likely as Wellington the politician, at a time of Home Rule agitation he was playing to the crowd. However, also as a polititian, he passed the Catholic Emancipation bill to the great annoyance of the British establishment and great joy in Ireland.

Arthur Wellesley the infant was born and reared in Ireland, as a child he was schooled in England, Belgium and France. He entered the Indian Civil Service and as a soldier commanded Indian and British imperial troops. All are entitle to claim him as their own.

Info point re Wellesley - he also went to school in Portarlington, Co. Laois, in the fine Georgian building beside the bridge that has let become a total ruin in the last 20 years - coincidentally this is a point I made earlier as to our genuine heritage being thrashed during the Bertie Bubble.

Regarding O'Connell, it is worth noting that he won his seat from William Vesey-FitzGerald, a man who had opposed the 1801 Act of Union and separately had been in favour of emancipation for all. While many regard him as having successfully extended the right to vote, in reality the property qualification to be eligible for voting in elections in Ireland was raised from 40 shillings to £10 - thus eliminating many from being able to vote. History looks very favorably on O'Connell, yet to my mind it was his contemporaries, The Young Irelanders, who were right - it's just a pity they weren't successful.

Cedrus

Poster Boy wrote: »

Regarding O'Connell, ...................While many regard him as having successfully extended the right to vote, in reality the property qualification to be eligible for voting in elections in Ireland was raised from 40 shillings to £10 - thus eliminating many from being able to vote.

Wellesley wasn't a democrat, as we would understand it today, either. He believed that only a privileged class should rule, not a mere mob of peasants. He did however, depart from convention in believing that one could raise themselves to the ruling class by their own efforts, rather than just by inheritance.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Sir Francis Beaufort who developed the Beaufort Scale, used to measure wind force and speed at sea was born in Navan. He was from a Protestant background and he went to sea at an early age, eventually ending up as Rear Admiral in the British Navy. Now he didn't start from scratch in developing his scale either, he developed existing ideas and perfected them.

You'll notice though that a lot of inventions come about in this manner.

Poster Boy

Cedrus wrote: »

Wellesley wasn't a democrat, as we would understand it today, either. He believed that only a privileged class should rule, not a mere mob of peasants. He did however, depart from convention in believing that one could raise themselves to the ruling class by their own efforts, rather than just by inheritance.

This is true alright. He was an interesting character, not simply black and white. Now that we might take an interest in him, and also to return to the OP's theme, which Irish place should really claim him - the present Merrion Hotel where he was born, Trim - where he grew up, or Portarlington, where he was schooled?

Actually, they is all wrong as St Mary's Church on Jervis Street in Dublin was where he was baptised - so that's trumps. That, and also coincidentally Arthur Guinness got married there, just to circle off my earlier ramblings. Somewhat appropriate its a pub today :pac:

Capt'n Midnight

MadsL wrote: »

8. About the year 1820 American merchantmen, sailing between Brazil and New England, often carried rubber as extra ballast on the home voyage and dumped it on the wharves at Boston. One of the shipmasters exhibited to his friends a pair of native shoes made from rubber. Another, with more foresight, brought home five hundred pairs, and offered them for sale. http://inventors.about.com/cs/inventorsalphabet/a/rubber_2.htm

Natural rubber is the stuff in chewing gum and it's just about as long lasting unless you vulcanise it with sulphur it kinda perishes like - did you ever drop a rubber band in oil / try to stretch an old one ?

Cedrus

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.goireland.com/craic/10-irish-inventions.htm#axzz1laqhQzFM

1. The submarine: Numerous designs predate Holland.
http://www.submarine-history.com/NOVAone.htm

Most of the designs on the amatuerish site you quote, are either not submarines but only submersibles, were never built or failed when built.
Monturiol and his Ictineo I & II are not mentioned nor any of Hollands designs.
You may as well claim that Da Vinci designed the Bell Cobra Helicopter based on a vague helical sketch he did years earlier

Sound of Silence

MadsL wrote: »

I don't know. Would you like to link to something State sponsored that makes such a claim? I'm dissecting this piece of GoIreland propaganda aimed at adults, not the US Education System.

Propaganda? Oh, please! Clearly the qualifications for what constitutes State funded propaganda are incredibly low.

I didn't rant about anything. I merely reflected that it was rich to claim Boyle, an aristocrat of the 17th Century, who, had you suggest he was anything other than an Englishman, would have probably had you horsewhipped.

Then I assume that when you said: "Ah, I see. So there never was "800 years of oppression" then", you were simply indulging yourself in a quick non-sequitur - not in fact revealing your intentions to draw this thread into a rant against what you would consider to be the less attractive elements of Irish society.

I believe that the Anglo-Irish class would have considered themselves to have been the New Irish. Johnathan Swift, for example, often wrote on behalf of the Irish People when expressing their apparent plight (most notably in "A Modest Proposal"), but it was clear that he was not always speaking necessarily about the Native Irish but actually of the Anglo-Irish class in Ireland.

Again what sovereignty in 1627 would have granted him "Irish" nationality? His allegiance to Charles the first is known - he was a Cavalier at the time of the Civil War.

I assume by that logic a Welshman has also never existed, for he never had any sovereignty but was simply an Englishman living in an English Principality. In fact, is it possible for a Welshman to exist now since the introduction of a Devolved Parliament, or do they remain relegated to the pantheon of Mythological creatures like the Unicorn or Sasquatch?

Clearly you're confusing National Identity with Ethnic Identity, which on this Island is quite diverse.

MadsL

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Natural rubber is the stuff in chewing gum and it's just about as long lasting unless you vulcanise it with sulphur it kinda perishes like - did you ever drop a rubber band in oil / try to stretch an old one ?

You might be familiar with the Plimsoll invented in the 1830s by the Liverpool Rubber Company. It seems our friend from Cork invented them seventy years later. Or are you claiming he was the first to stick vulcanised rubber on his feet?

Cedrus wrote: »

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.goireland.com/craic/10-irish-inventions.htm#axzz1laqhQzFM

1. The submarine: Numerous designs predate Holland.
http://www.submarine-history.com/NOVAone.htm

Most of the designs on the amatuerish site you quote, are either not submarines but only submersibles, were never built or failed when built.
Monturiol and his Ictineo I & II are not mentioned nor any of Hollands designs.

You may as well claim that Da Vinci designed the Bell Cobra Helicopter based on a vague helical sketch he did years earlier

On that basis then Monturiol should be credited. Still not Irish. Holland invented the first hybrid submarine using engines on the surface and batteries underwater.

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Propaganda? Oh, please! Clearly the qualifications for what constitutes State funded propaganda are incredibly low.

Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

If it walks like a duck...

Then I assume that when you said: "Ah, I see. So there never was "800 years of oppression" then", you were simply indulging yourself in a quick non-sequitur - not in fact revealing your intentions to draw this thread into a rant against what you would consider to be the less attractive elements of Irish society.

Well here's a thing. On one hand Boyle's father, 1st Earl of Cork, was a member of this 'invading English tyranny' and close friend and supporter of Cromwell. Now after building an empire of 13 estates and establishing the town of Clonakilty the 1st Earl of Cork saw his sons fighting the Irish rebellion of 1642 at Battle of Liscarroll. His third son Roger Boyle, 1st Earl of Orrery, eventually accepted a command from Cromwell. He was master of the ordnance for Cromwell's invasion.

So on the other hand, you now expect me to believe that the youngest son of this family, who left Ireland at the age of eight, and spent less than two years of his adult life in Ireland, who having grown up on stories of battle and conquest of Ireland would now profess to be an Irishman. Pull the other one. I'm astonished you wish to lay claim to him, by that logic would you describe his brother, Cromwell's commander and master of the ordnance as an "Irishman"??

I believe that the Anglo-Irish class would have considered themselves to have been the New Irish. Johnathan Swift, for example, often wrote on behalf of the Irish People when expressing their apparent plight (most notably in "A Modest Proposal"), but it was clear that he was not always speaking necessarily about the Native Irish but actually of the Anglo-Irish class in Ireland.

Johnathan Swift wasn't even born until twenty years after the events I am describing. The son of a new money Englishman, laying claim to Irish lands, and putting down rebellion was no Johnathan Swift, hate to break it to you.

I assume by that logic a Welshman has also never existed, for he never had any sovereignty but was simply an Englishman living in an English Principality.

No. He was a Welshman living in an English Principality. What would you call the son of an Englishman living in that Principality helping to quash any rebellion. Pretty sure the Welsh would not consider him Welsh.

Daniel Defoe wrote:

Thus from a mixture of all kinds began,
That het’rogeneous thing, an Englishman:
In eager rapes, and furious lust begot,
Betwixt a painted Britain and a Scot.
Whose gend’ring off-spring quickly learn’d to bow,
And yoke their heifers to the Roman plough:
From whence a mongrel half-bred race there came,
With neither name, nor nation, speech nor fame.
In whose hot veins new mixtures quickly ran,
Infus’d betwixt a Saxon and a Dane.
While their rank daughters, to their parents just,
Receiv’d all nations with promiscuous lust.
This nauseous brood directly did contain
The well-extracted blood of Englishmen.

In fact, is it possible for a Welshman to exist now since the introduction of a Devolved Parliament, or do they remain relegated to the pantheon of Mythological creatures like the Unicorn or Sasquatch?

Well since you bring it up, yes they exist, but not as a Sovereign, Independent nation. You have to describe Welsh in terms of ethnicity, which brings us back to the nationality of the parents.

Clearly you're confusing National Identity with Ethnic Identity, which on this Island is quite diverse.

And Robert Boyle's ethnicity was what exactly, if not English? Geography of birth does not define ethnicity.

MadsL

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/guinness-considered-being-english-010608440.html

Seems even Diageo/Guinness themselves know how English their roots are.

grenache

Confab wrote: »

James Martin was from Northern Ireland, therefore he wasn't Irish anyway, he was a UK citizen.

GoIreland, along with Tourism Ireland amongst others promote Ireland on an all island basis.

Anyone born on the island of Ireland back then was a UK citizen, but they were also Irish.

MagicSean

I can't believe this has gone to five pages.

MadsL

Apologies for giving the impression GoIreland was state funded, it was indirectly until 2004. Sorry for any confusion caused. FEXCO bought it out and it is now a private system.

Gulliver Ireland, which is headquartered in Killorglin, Co. Kerry, is Ireland’s leading cost effective provider of tourism information and reservations. The original Gulliver system was developed by Bord Fáilte and the Northern Ireland Tourist Board.
Following a partnership agreement with FEXCO in 1997, the financial services company acquired a majority shareholding in Gulliver and since July 2004 is the 100 per cent owner of Gulliver Ireland.

MadsL

MagicSean wrote: »

I can't believe this has gone to five pages.

Thanks for helping it to six.

grenache

MagicSean wrote: »

I can't believe this has gone to five pages.

You're right not to believe.

It's actually gone to seven pages

magma69

I really couldn't give a toss what the Irish invented or what they didn't. History all over the world is riddled with false claims. I do find the agenda being pushed by the OP with such vigour a little bit weird though.

MadsL

magma69 wrote: »

I really couldn't give a toss what the Irish invented or what they didn't. History all over the world is riddled with false claims. I do find the agenda being pushed by the OP with such vigour a little bit weird though.

What 'agenda'? lol at the thought of having an 'agenda'. Please enlighten me.

im invisible

We invented the Wavin pipe

MadsL

Wavin. Right. Not Dutch then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavin

Strictly speaking, the OP is largely correct but I see the GoIreland piece as a jokey article along the lines of Ridleys 'believe it or not'. Definitely not acceptable as a serious piece of journalism, but fine as a bit of fun.

9959

grenache wrote: »

You're right not to believe.

It's actually gone to seven pages

I'm reading this thread because I woke up too early and am bored out of my tiny mind, I'm really enjoying it and hope it continues for at least another seven pages.
It strikes me that 'MadsL' is a formidable debater, and his holding his corner with some aplomb.

Note to self: Don't get into a 'Donnybrook' with that fella unless you really know your onions.

More please and thank you all!

Cedrus

MadsL wrote: »

On that basis then Monturiol should be credited. Still not Irish. Holland invented the first hybrid submarine using engines on the surface and batteries underwater.

The Icteneos were still only submersibles, you could sing them once per voyage, you could float them once per voyage.

Hollands Real innovation was that he could control the depth and go up and down as often as you wished i,e, the First Submarine.

Cienciano

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Sir Francis Beaufort who developed the Beaufort Scale, used to measure wind force and speed at sea was born in Navan. He was from a Protestant background and he went to sea at an early age, eventually ending up as Rear Admiral in the British Navy. Now he didn't start from scratch in developing his scale either, he developed existing ideas and perfected them.

You'll notice though that a lot of inventions come about in this manner.

"Rear Admiral" lol!

Dravokivich

MadsL wrote: »

So if you were born in Spain on holiday, would you describe yourself as Spanish?
To help you, you might want to read the text of the 27th Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland.



Clearly the majority of the Irish population consider parents' nationality to be very much to do with a child's nationality?

If you want to be such a smart arse about it,

Insertion of new Article 9.2.2:
This section shall not apply to persons born before the date of the enactment of this section.

I'm pretty sure that covers it.

conorhal

MadsL wrote: »

In the same way De Valera was American I suppose.

Both Boyle's parents were English, and whilst he was born in Ireland he was schooled at Eton from the age of eight. He did his "Grand Tour" of Europe and settled in Geneva, then moved to England in the summer of 1644. He settled in Stalbridge, the family English estate. He paid two lengthy visits to Ireland during the early 50s (for a year from June 1652, and then for eight months from Oct 1653), and wrote a letter describing Ireland as " this illiterate country".

He profited greatly from Cromwell, sucking 3000 pounds a year from his estates in Ireland as an absentee landlord. He lived then in Oxford, and later London until his death.

Sure why not claim him as "Irish"... :rolleyes:

But with his contemptable self loathing and mealy mouthed begrudgery towards the country, what else could he be but Irish?

Anyone

Kxiii wrote: »

Born in Lismore Co. Waterford.

Waterford also gave the world the cream cracker.

Is that Rhyming Slang?

Sound of Silence

MadsL wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

If it walks like a duck...

Then I assume the BBC have been polluted with that same terrible disease.

Often they're on a bit of a roll.

So on the other hand, you now expect me to believe that the youngest son of this family, who left Ireland at the age of eight, and spent less than two years of his adult life in Ireland, who having grown up on stories of battle and conquest of Ireland would now profess to be an Irishman. Pull the other one. I'm astonished you wish to lay claim to him, by that logic would you describe his brother, Cromwell's commander and master of the ordnance as an "Irishman"??

I don't particularly wish to lay claim to these malcontents, but the natural fact is that they were born in Ireland and therefore could reasonably be introduced into the GoIreland article as being, well, Irish or at least Anglo-Irish. If you simply don't want to entertain any more speculation, then we can dig the man up himself and ask him in person - all in the name of a Cartoon article which transcends simple misappropriation and enters the realm of State Propaganda.

W.B. Yeats spoke of the Anglo-Irish class when he said: "We are one of the great stocks of Europe. We are the people of Burke; we are the people of Grattan; we are the people of Swift, the people of Emmet, the people of Parnell. We have created the most of the modern literature of this country. We have created the best of its political intelligence". I assume your response would be that, unfortunately, these men's accomplishments simply do not fit into the fabric of Irish heritage until about, well, the early to mid 18th Century, if even that.

Johnathan Swift wasn't even born until twenty years after the events I am describing. The son of a new money Englishman, laying claim to Irish lands, and putting down rebellion was no Johnathan Swift, hate to break it to you.

Those must have been a tumultuous and revelatory twenty years. Also, Swift had very little love for the native Irish. As I mentioned earlier, when he spoke of the "Irish people", he was speaking of the Anglo-Irish class

No. He was a Welshman living in an English Principality. What would you call the son of an Englishman living in that Principality helping to quash any rebellion. Pretty sure the Welsh would not consider him Welsh.

I find it ironic that a man who clearly expressed his distaste for the whole "800 Years" argument seems to be doing everything in his power to perpetuate the notion of the foreign Colonial aggressor exploiting and pacifying the Native population.

Nothing wrong with that, but it has little to do with the GoIreland article simply stating that Robert Boyle was born in Ireland.

Well since you bring it up, yes they exist, but not as a Sovereign, Independent nation. You have to describe Welsh in terms of ethnicity, which brings us back to the nationality of the parents.

When has a parent's Nationality been tied to someone's ethnicity?

And Robert Boyle's ethnicity was what exactly, if not English? Geography of birth does not define ethnicity.

It doesn't negate him from being placed in the Article. I'm not sure what else was claimed about Boyle in the article, other than that he happened to have been born in Ireland, which certainly isn't a false claim.

I'm not sure how much room was left in the article for the author to actually explore in detail the intricacies of the Irish identity and how it applies to each individual inventor. A thoroughly engrossing read, indeed.

baalthor

Are George Orwell, Rudyard Kipling, Lawrence Durrell, Cliff Richard, Joanna Lumley and Pete Best all famous Indians then ?

Sound of Silence

baalthor wrote: »

Are George Orwell, Rudyard Kipling, Lawrence Durrell, Cliff Richard, Joanna Lumley and Pete Best all famous Indians then ?

They would have been considered Colonial Commoners, of course. The equivalent in Ireland being the Anglo-Irish class or the Protestant Ascendancy.

Duggys Housemate

Clearly it's a bit more complicated these days with lots of immigration, and we are a bit careful to tip toe around the distinctions in "Irishness" between the ethnic Irish and Irish born and reared. But not then. The Anglo Irish considered themselves British, Anglo Irish and even English.

With colonialism it is different. Colonials bring their way of life and Government with them, and their laws etc. Nobody has ever described Dawkins as a Kenyan.

The OP is a bit odd to care about this fluff piece but right about Boyle.

Cedrus

Having been born in another country to one Irish parent and having worked in several countries myself, my personal experience would make me believe that Wellesley and Boyle were considered Irish by their English contemporaries and English by their Irish contemporaries.
The sane most likely applies to George Orwell, Rudyard Kipling, Lawrence Durrell, Cliff Richard, Joanna Lumley and Pete Best with regard to India.
Most people I know who have been born in one country but 'belong' to another country are proud of their heritage but keep it quiet when it doesn't suit.