Retailers and the Xmas Period.

borderlinemeath

Gumbi wrote: »

Ultimately supply will meet demand. The consumer has driven the shops to do this. If there were such a ban, the same amount of money would be spent, albeit not in Irish shops, in which case, would you rather see that same money spent online? The money going to companies in other countries? Companies that don't support Irish jobs?

Either way, the money will be spent. We are a consumer nation. Ultimately, the shops are just meeting a demand set by the consumer.

Have you ever been in a NEXT store at 5.30am? I went in one morning at about 7am on the 27th (I was the keyholder for a multisite and had to let in the cleaners, I certainly wouldn't be in by choice). There's a certain type of scavenger that bothers their backside getting up to go into the next sale. It's usually women who go into a zombie like frenzy buying 50 childrens items to make it worth their while. It's like a fcuking war zone for middling quality high street crap.

While you insist that consumers will just spend online, certainly they will for things like consumer electronics but certainly not the case for Next clothing or the likes of Arnotts or BTs where their online presence is woeful compared to Currys/Power City. These are the stores that pushed for the Stephens Day opening rather than the electronics stores.

keithclancy

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

You disagree that someone should be able to do what they want with their own business? I find that very odd.

Yup, works over here in the Netherlands anyway.

longhalloween

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Have you ever been in a NEXT store at 5.30am? I went in one morning at about 7am on the 27th (I was the keyholder for a multisite and had to let in the cleaners, I certainly wouldn't be in by choice). There's a certain type of scavenger that bothers their backside getting up to go into the next sale. It's usually women who go into a zombie like frenzy buying 50 childrens items to make it worth their while. It's like a fcuking war zone for middling quality high street crap.

What's worse is that people start queuing at 4am.

Gumbi

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Have you ever been in a NEXT store at 5.30am? I went in one morning at about 7am on the 27th (I was the keyholder for a multisite and had to let in the cleaners, I certainly wouldn't be in by choice). There's a certain type of scavenger that bothers their backside getting up to go into the next sale. It's usually women who go into a zombie like frenzy buying 50 childrens items to make it worth their while. It's like a fcuking war zone for middling quality high street crap.

While you insist that consumers will just spend online, certainly they will for things like consumer electronics but certainly not the case for Next clothing or the likes of Arnotts or BTs where their online presence is woeful compared to Currys/Power City. These are the stores that pushed for the Stephens Day opening rather than the electronics stores.

It's as simple as this. Consumers have money. They want to spend the money (consume). Every shop (understandably) wants as much of the cake as possible. The shops wouldn't open of there weren't money to be made.

They'll just market it differently, something along the lines of clearing Christmad stock or some such nonsense.

Customers mightn't necessarily spend online. But you can be assured that the money will be spent. Andre shops have targeted Stephen's Day as an effective method for parting money from the consumer. I really don't see the problem here. It's quite simple.

wmpdd3

i work in retail, in places i've worked, i would leave at 12am christmas morning and i'd be back in at 4am st stephans day.
Its just accepted, BUT, i refuse to buy anything other that a newspaper and the basics on a sunday / bank holiday etc.
the first st stephans day i worked, it was mostly people eho werent born in ireland, now its everyone. I just said in work yesterday, we will be open xmas day in my lifetime.
But be warned, it wont be just retail staff working over christmas if this contnues, all other business will want a bit of the cake too.

borderlinemeath

Gumbi wrote: »

It's as simple as this. Consumers have money. They want to spend the money (consume). Every shop (understandably) wants as much of the cake as possible. The shops wouldn't open of there weren't money to be made.

But there's a breaking point. When the 26th fell on Sunday back in 2010, the wage bills for the stores that opened were huge. Getting staff to work cost a huge amount, coupled with the fact that margins were slashed to give a decent sale offering.

They'll just market it differently, something along the lines of clearing Christmad stock or some such nonsense.

More and more retailers are launching sales BEFORE Christmas. Head into any shopping centre or high street today and 90% of sales will have started. Next is the only high street store that still waits til after Christmas. The department stores do a few loss leaders for the people that feel it's more important to queue in a sleeping bag to get a cheap bed/couch/flat screen than spending time with their families.

Customers mightn't necessarily spend online. But you can be assured that the money will be spent. Andre shops have targeted Stephen's Day as an effective method for parting money from the consumer. I really don't see the problem here. It's quite simple.

The only reason St Stephens day trading started here is because the UK did boxing day trading, and the majority of the high street stores are owned by UK plcs. NEXT objected to the Sunday trading laws in Northern Ireland because it couldn't do it's usual 5.30am opening when the 27th fell on a Sunday, so they lobbied to get all the stores open on St Stephens day. It was never on the Irish consumers radar until they threw their toys out of the pram in NI.

You say you don't see the problem. You've probably never had to work on the front line over the Christmas period for an extended period of time. Doing it for one or two years when you're a student/part time isn't the same as when you're 10 years at it with family commitments and no time off over Christmas at all. One year heading home I almost fell asleep at the wheel at 10pm on Christmas Eve. After pulling over and giving myself a few minutes shut eye and crying from sheer exhaustion I then drove for the next hour with the window fully down to ensure I stayed awake. Not fun, but sure if you don't see the problem, then it's ok for retailers to work their staff to that level of exhaustion so they can have "as much of the cake as possible"

Markcheese

As with everything there is a balance.. People want the pub and local spar open Stephens day , the people who want to
Go sale shopping couldn't go(and wouldn't mourn) if no-where was open on st Stephens day... And wouldn't online shop either. People who online shop don't want the crush of the sales .. And people who want that rush won't particularly bother with the web ..
I was in catering when I was younger and worked a good few Christmas's, didn't enjoy it, wouldn't do it now , but it was part of the job ...

GreeBo

Gumbi wrote: »

It's as simple as this. Consumers have money. They want to spend the money (consume). Every shop (understandably) wants as much of the cake as possible. The shops wouldn't open of there weren't money to be made.

They'll just market it differently, something along the lines of clearing Christmad stock or some such nonsense.

Customers mightn't necessarily spend online. But you can be assured that the money will be spent. Andre shops have targeted Stephen's Day as an effective method for parting money from the consumer. I really don't see the problem here. It's quite simple.

No one finds it complicated thanks. :rolleyes:
Some us just happen to think that its wrong and ends up with shops taking advantage of staff.

wmpdd3

There's ways around paying a premium for Christmas hours too, offer staff their Christmas bank holidays in around Febuary mid term and people will take it as they wont have to sort childcare.
So now staff find them selved working St. Stephan's day for flat rate.

Procrastastudy

Some interesting points but I'd like to crystallise one if I may:

The assertion that if shops close on a particular day - money gets spent on line. I don't actually see the logic in this one, could some one elaborate for me please?

My thoughts are - if you want something from an on line retailer you have the cash Xmas morning, you're on Amazon on the 25th, not the 26th. If you want something from a bricks and mortar, and they're all closed you wait until they're open again (either 26th or 27th).

Gumbi

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Some interesting points but I'd like to crystallise one if I may:

The assertion that if shops close on a particular day - money gets spent on line. I don't actually see the logic in this one, could some one elaborate for me please?

My thoughts are - if you want something from an on line retailer you have the cash Xmas morning, you're on Amazon on the 25th, not the 26th. If you want something from a bricks and mortar, and they're all closed you wait until they're open again (either 26th or 27th).

Not necessarily online - but it will be spent. As has been said we are a consumer nation. Shops use the fact that Christmas is over as leverage to market a different sales' pitch. The consumer wants, the producer delivers.

Procrastastudy

Gumbi wrote: »

Not necessarily online - but it will be spent. As has been said we are a consumer nation. Shops use the fact that Christmas is over as leverage to market a different sales' pitch. The consumer wants, the producer delivers.

Sorry that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me - perhaps you could explain? I'm not sure how you spend money when nothing is open unless it's online.

borderlinemeath

Gumbi wrote: »

Not necessarily online - but it will be spent. As has been said we are a consumer nation.

No, you've said it, that doesn't necessarily make it the opinion of this thread. Plenty of people don't go out in the Christmas sales. There's a certain type that will, but plenty who won't. Retail sales have been in a steady decline the past 5 years, it's only the past 3 years that stores have been opening St Stephens Day. Spending power is down yet opening hours get longer? Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense as it pushes the cost of running a business up and further eats into the already meagre profit margin.

Shops use the fact that Christmas is over as leverage to market a different sales' pitch. The consumer wants, the producer delivers.

Just like shops use every other holiday and occasion to promote different offers. What retailers actually do is use it as an opportunity to dreg up all the crap out of the stockroom that hasn't sold during the year and try to flog it on the bargain hunters. There's a certain type that it doesn't really matter what the product is, if it's marked at 70% off, they must have it, whether they never wear it or use it doesn't really matter. These people will only buy in the sales and it doesn't matter to them whether it's the 26th or the 27th. They're not going to be spending online either.

skinny90

borderlinemeath wrote: »

No, you've said it, that doesn't necessarily make it the opinion of this thread. Plenty of people don't go out in the Christmas sales. There's a certain type that will, but plenty who won't. Retail sales have been in a steady decline the past 5 years, it's only the past 3 years that stores have been opening St Stephens Day. Spending power is down yet opening hours get longer? Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense as it pushes the cost of running a business up and further eats into the already meagre profit margin.



Just like shops use every other holiday and occasion to promote different offers. What retailers actually do is use it as an opportunity to dreg up all the crap out of the stockroom that hasn't sold during the year and try to flog it on the bargain hunters. There's a certain type that it doesn't really matter what the product is, if it's marked at 70% off, they must have it, whether they never wear it or use it doesn't really matter. These people will only buy in the sales and it doesn't matter to them whether it's the 26th or the 27th. They're not going to be spending online either.

5 years decline in retail ?it would help explaining what type ie clothing electrical etc because I can ensure you the "five year decline"doesn't stand for every type of retail.
Also regarding "70% off items" it's either off extreamly high margin products ie clothing products or through supplier support ie Dell allowing a certain percentage off and taking the hit.
My opinion on Stephens day sales and the like is that if there are people willing to spend money on sucha day let them spend it if I was running a business that would be benefit greatly it would make sense to...
If it didn't benefit the business well then it wouldn't.

mdebets

skinny90 wrote: »

My opinion on Stephens day sales and the like is that if there are people willing to spend money on sucha day let them spend it if I was running a business that would be benefit greatly it would make sense to...
If it didn't benefit the business well then it wouldn't.

But the problem is, that opening on Stephen's Day doesn't actually benefit a business anymore.
The consumers have x amount of money to spend over the year. This budget doesn't suddenly increase, because the shops are open on Stehen's Day. The cost of running a shop however increases by opening on Stehen's Day. So they have overall more cost, but the same turnover, which means a smaller profit.
The first shops who opened on Stehen's Day might have seen an increase in turnover, as they took money away from shops that weren't open, but if most shops are open now, this advantage is taken away. So now shops have to open on Stephen's Day, because otherwise they would loose money if they weren't open, not because they are going to take in more money.

borderlinemeath

skinny90 wrote: »

5 years decline in retail ?it would help explaining what type ie clothing electrical etc because I can ensure you the "five year decline"doesn't stand for every type of retail.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1022/breaking33.html

There's one breakdown for you. Im not a mind reader and I don't know what sector you are referring to above so maybe you can enlighten us. There's always a few good news stories such as Pizza shops or cash for gold outlets, but these don't necessarily have a category to themselves, and their small increases are usurped by their overall category (ie hospitality)

Also regarding "70% off items" it's either off extreamly high margin products ie clothing products or through supplier support ie Dell allowing a certain percentage off and taking the hit.

You would be very suprised. I've worked across various sectors and there comes a point where stock that has been sitting in the store for so long it just needs to be discounted to go. I know of one pop up shop this year that opened just for December (it was a regular store that closed last year) that sold all it's goods at half or more the original retail and a lot of those prices were below cost just to clear the stock to get cash in to try and relaunch next year.

My opinion on Stephens day sales and the like is that if there are people willing to spend money on sucha day let them spend it if I was running a business that would be benefit greatly it would make sense to...
If it didn't benefit the business well then it wouldn't.

But the point of the thread is that if nowhere was open then consumers wouldn't go shopping. They would relax and recouperate with their friends and families and go shopping on the 27th if they wanted to.

wmpdd3

Well, looks like my predictions for a Christmas Day shopping day with in a decade could be on track.

This year, footfall and sales up on St. Stephan's day 2011.

Though I did notice that our sale now ends a week earlier, it used to end 1st week in Feb. It starts at the same time.

Procrastastudy

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Well, looks like my predictions for a Christmas Day shopping day with in a decade could be on track.

This year, footfall and sales up on St. Stephan's day 2011.

Though I did notice that our sale now ends a week earlier, it used to end 1st week in Feb. It starts at the same time.

I think you could be right on that one. Does anyone else find that just a bit sad.

BostonB

I assume a lot of people don't celebrate xmas. They must be baffled what the fuss is all about.

Its a reflection of modern culture though. Personally I detest the whole shopping fever at Xmas.

I assume if people spend so much at xmas it must kill sales in the new year.

borderlinemeath

BostonB wrote: »

I assume a lot of people don't celebrate xmas. They must be baffled what the fuss is all about.

Its a reflection of modern culture though. Personally I detest the whole shopping fever at Xmas.

I assume if people spend so much at xmas it must kill sales in the new year.

If you watched sky news or read any of the UK papers online yesterday, the pictures agree with you (for the UK anyway) as did the sky news report that said that sales were bolstered by rich tourists, and when interviewed a few of them said that the sales made it cheaper than shopping at home in China.

I recall much the same when Arnotts and BTs opened either last year or the year before and RTE showed a load of asian women sprinting to the Louis Vuitton counter in BTs to get to the designer bags.

Procrastastudy

borderlinemeath wrote: »

If you watched sky news or read any of the UK papers online yesterday, the pictures agree with you (for the UK anyway) as did the sky news report that said that sales were bolstered by rich tourists, and when interviewed a few of them said that the sales made it cheaper than shopping at home in China.

I recall much the same when Arnotts and BTs opened either last year or the year before and RTE showed a load of asian women sprinting to the Louis Vuitton counter in BTs to get to the designer bags.

For the record as it were - if someone can prove its of economic benefit I'm not against it in principle. The proper course of action, then, is to ensure that employees arent forced to work it.

road_high

I agree with posters calling for St. Stephens sales to be banned. I usually abhor govt redtape and interference, but in this case I'd love to see it happening. We have silly rules on when you can buy a bottle of wine yet one day or two days a year they cannot legislate to close shops and allow workers enjoy what is supposed to be a family time of year.

I refuse to shop on St. Stephens Day, I feel Christmas in Ireland has been diminished by shops opening on this day. Or maybe I'm just very old fashioned. I just think it's very sad. And overall it will make no difference to taking either. Just because there's an extra day does not mean there's more going to be spent...why do you think retailers have stopped the 24 hour shopping fad? For this very reason. More than enough shopping days in the calender.

wmpdd3

True, the sales on St Stephan's Day could be similar to a Sunday in February, nothing spectacular, but an extra pay day for the business. Maybe a 6% increase on the week, with a decrease on the other 5 trading days.

To think of it, last year was the first year that the Next in my city opened on St Stephan's Day, I didnt go as I wont buy on a bank holiday. Then when it came to the Summer sale I didnt bother either, its kinda stopped me bothering with their sales.

The large 24 hours stores in Ireland have very similar sales figures to the same size stores in the UK with the same catchment area. Believe it or not, it can be cheaper to keep some stores open for the night than closing them.


Remember in the UK, Sunday trading is 12-6 or 6 hours max. Imagine that here?

At the end of the day, its up to customers to tell retailers what they want, vote with your feet.

Guy:Incognito

mfitzy wrote: »

I agree with posters calling for St. Stephens sales to be banned. I usually abhor govt redtape and interference, but in this case I'd love to see it happening. We have silly rules on when you can buy a bottle of wine yet one day or two days a year they cannot legislate to close shops and allow workers enjoy what is supposed to be a family time of year. .

So instead of giving out or trying to get them to change the stupid rules, you think they should add more to annoy other types of customers. The no alcohol on Good Friday/Christmas day thing is ridiculous. Moreso in the last decade or so with the influx of non catholics and the decrease in practising Catholicism among the indigenous population. Let people make up their own bloody minds about what the want to do and when.

I havnt gone shopping on Stephens day at any stage ( we play a match and go to the hosting club's bar) but if someone else wants to that's their choice (should a retailer decide they want to open their own store). Just like I drink very little these days and have no great desire to drink on good Friday but if a bar owner wants to open they should be allowed.

Bottom line is the people that own the shops should decide when they open. People need to realise that not everyone shares their views on holidays. Religious or otherwise.

wmpdd3

Local people dont decide when shops open!! Consultants in India looking at a database of POS trends decide.
Once the multinationals open, the local shops are under pressure.

Local people populate the rota.

Retail full timers work from the 14th of Dec through to 6pm the 24th, back in at 8 am on the 27th and everyday till the 30th of Dec.

You get time owed.... one day a week off paid, the last 4 weeks in Jan.

Happy Christmas!

borderlinemeath

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So instead of giving out or trying to get them to change the stupid rules, you think they should add more to annoy other types of customers. The no alcohol on Good Friday/Christmas day thing is ridiculous. Moreso in the last decade or so with the influx of non catholics and the decrease in practising Catholicism among the indigenous population. Let people make up their own bloody minds about what the want to do and when.

I havnt gone shopping on Stephens day at any stage ( we play a match and go to the hosting club's bar) but if someone else wants to that's their choice (should a retailer decide they want to open their own store). Just like I drink very little these days and have no great desire to drink on good Friday but if a bar owner wants to open they should be allowed.

Bottom line is the people that own the shops should decide when they open. People need to realise that not everyone shares their views on holidays. Religious or otherwise.

Whether your Irish, Indian, Chinese, whatever, you're exhausted after working pre Christmas rush and post Christmas sales. Religious beliefs aside, it's very very difficult on staff. Longer shifts, tougher commutes due to lack of public transport. (you could be rostered til midnight/24hrs etc). Nasty rude customers (there's a certain ignorant breed that come out at Christmas as well) The remuneration is pretty crap. Even when I was staff and paid hourly I got time owed rather than extra pay most of the time. When I became a manager and was salaried there was nothing extra. NOTHING. Unless you met a complex bonus system that Head Office always managed to calculate just out of reach. The 26th used to be a day that I relaxed and got myself ready for the next onlaught of crazy shoppers, and I really needed it. I never went boozing/racing/partying as I had a responsibility to be in good shape for the 27th when the SALE proper would start.

Thankfully I'm out of retail just over 2 years so I never had to work the 26th but some of my old colleagues do and a family member does as well. Working in retail has somewhat ruined Christmas for me, I don't enjoy it, I don't really partake in many festivities, I can't seem to get into the Christmas spirit. I get a bit of a sick feeling in my stomach when I see shops taking down Halloween decorations on the 31st of October and think 'here we go again'.

keithclancy

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So instead of giving out or trying to get them to change the stupid rules, you think they should add more to annoy other types of customers. The no alcohol on Good Friday/Christmas day thing is ridiculous. Moreso in the last decade or so with the influx of non catholics and the decrease in practising Catholicism among the indigenous population. Let people make up their own bloody minds about what the want to do and when.

I havnt gone shopping on Stephens day at any stage ( we play a match and go to the hosting club's bar) but if someone else wants to that's their choice (should a retailer decide they want to open their own store). Just like I drink very little these days and have no great desire to drink on good Friday but if a bar owner wants to open they should be allowed.

Bottom line is the people that own the shops should decide when they open. People need to realise that not everyone shares their views on holidays. Religious or otherwise.

All the stuff in the Netherlands is closed for Christmas Day and Sinterklaas also.

Most stuff is closed on Sundays, the City has a rotation system which allows on which Supermarket to open.

Same in Germany too.

In reality a retailer cannot 'Do what they like' they have to follow the rules.

And while the days off tend to fall on religious days, its pretty much a historical thing with little to do about religion anymore.

If people can't do without being able to buy booze on one day, then they have a much bigger problem anyway.

Del2005

mfitzy wrote: »

I agree with posters calling for St. Stephens sales to be banned. I usually abhor govt redtape and interference, but in this case I'd love to see it happening. We have silly rules on when you can buy a bottle of wine yet one day or two days a year they cannot legislate to close shops and allow workers enjoy what is supposed to be a family time of year.

I refuse to shop on St. Stephens Day, I feel Christmas in Ireland has been diminished by shops opening on this day. Or maybe I'm just very old fashioned. I just think it's very sad. And overall it will make no difference to taking either. Just because there's an extra day does not mean there's more going to be spent...why do you think retailers have stopped the 24 hour shopping fad? For this very reason. More than enough shopping days in the calender.

Yet you still want the ESB and TV on Christmas day, why aren't they allowed time off. There are plenty of other industries that are open 24/7 do you want them to be forced to close? Or what about the ESB workers, or any other industry, who had to work on Christmas day can they not buy stuff they need on St Stephens day? The world has moved on from 9-5 jobs yet some people haven't.

keithclancy wrote: »

All the stuff in the Netherlands is closed for Christmas Day and Sinterklaas also.

Most stuff is closed on Sundays, the City has a rotation system which allows on which Supermarket to open.

Same in Germany too.

In reality a retailer cannot 'Do what they like' they have to follow the rules.

And while the days off tend to fall on religious days, its pretty much a historical thing with little to do about religion anymore

It's completely about religion. If it wasn't why don't they close on Monday-Saturday? Historical things can change, we don't burn witches or butcher whole civilisations, so why do we still hang onto outdated religious days?

keithclancy wrote: »

If people can't do without being able to buy booze on one day, then they have a much bigger problem anyway.

It's the choice of buying it not the need to buy it.

The irony of this is the the OP is complaining about not respecting Christmas yet don't respect it themselves, Xmas what's that?

Corruptedmorals

Del2005 wrote: »

Yet you still want the ESB and TV on Christmas day, why aren't they allowed time off. There are plenty of other industries that are open 24/7 do you want them to be forced to close? Or what about the ESB workers, or any other industry, who had to work on Christmas day can they not buy stuff they need on St Stephens day? The world has moved on from 9-5 jobs yet some people haven't.

Oh and buying a top in the Next sale at 6am on Stephen's Day is an essential service now, is it? You think retail falls under the same category as emergency services? You realise the high street has only opened on the 26th in the last few years, and therefore a huge proportion of staff did in fact sign their contracts with the expectation of not working it. Nobody will die if the high street doesn't open, but it will benefit a lot of staff and a lot of families.

Del2005

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Oh and buying a top in the Next sale at 6am on Stephen's Day is an essential service now, is it? You think retail falls under the same category as emergency services? You realise the high street has only opened on the 26th in the last few years, and therefore a huge proportion of staff did in fact sign their contracts with the expectation of not working it. Nobody will die if the high street doesn't open, but it will benefit a lot of staff and a lot of families.

Could be, personally I think it's a great marketing scam I also think Christmas is one too. Why is TV an essential service? There are loads of people working over Christmas in non essential services, why do shop workers think they are something special?

Contracts change and the people would have had to agree to the change, so they can't really complain about working on a day they've agreed to work.

We couldn't eat meat on Friday till a few years ago, yet most people don't seem too worried about loosing that tradition.

If you don't want to work around Christmas move to an industry that doesn't open over Christmas, I think you'll find there aren't that many around.