Archbishops issue strongly worded statement on Government decision for abortion

the culture of deference

Ireland's Catholic Archbishops have warned that legislating for abortion would pave the way for "the direct and intentional killing of unborn children".




" the lives of untold numbers of unborn children now depend on the choices that will be made by public representatives."



“It would pave the way for the direct and intentional killing of unborn children. This can never be morally justified in any circumstances.”They said to legislate on the basis of such a flawed judgement would be both tragic and unnecessary.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1218/archbishops-abortion.html



Here is a better idea.

Why don't Cardinal Seán Brady of Armagh, Archbishops Diarmuid Martin of Dublin, Dermot Clifford of Cashel and Emly, and Michael Neary of Tuam shut the fcuk up and keep their outdated and unwanted opinions to themselves and the fcuking brainwashed morons who follow them unquestionably.

Its disgraceful to think that aside from still controlling our schools they are allowed to hold society back in 2012. I have a post on their earlier intervention in the medical sector, and how it affected our development as a nation.

davet82

I think we need an abortion forum...

Stheno

davet82 wrote: »

I think we need an abortion forum...

Good idea

stimpson

Well the Archbishop doesn't have to have one if he doesn't want one.

Lollipops23

Oh how I wish they'd keep their opinions to themselves. There's a teeny tiny minority of people in this country who give to shíts what the Church think.

All they've done for us is rain down misery and torture on the public, but they're too arrogant to think we might be fed up with them an their ill-informed opinions.

Go fúck yourself Archbishop.

the culture of deference

My earlier post

the culture of deference wrote: »

Its a long article, but very interesting, and it really highlights how much of a destructive force the Catholic church has had on medicine

(actually on most aspects of Irish society)

. I tried to summarise but its still very long.

Ailbhe Jordan assesses the historical and ongoing influence of the religious faith on the practice of medicine and implementation of health policy in Ireland

http://www.medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=religious_zeal_and_tough_medicine

Claims made in the BBC documentary This World that Catholic Primate Dr Seán Brady helped conceal the allegations of abuse made by some of the victims of Fr Brendan Smyth, and his defiant reaction to the calls for his resignation following the broadcast, has reignited the continuing debate about the Catholic Church’s power in this country.

In few areas has this power been more keenly evident than in healthcare and medicine, where the Church has stamped its mark on health policy, medical education and training, and the implementation of emerging new surgical interventions and medical treatments.

In 1950, Minister for Health Dr Noel Browne infamously attempted to introduce free maternity care for mothers. The proposal faced fierce opposition, led by the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin John Charles McQuaid, who argued that the State had no right to interfere in how families supported their children and claimed the legislation would lead to the introduction of contraception and abortion. The debacle led to the collapse of the Fine Gael government and the minister’s resignation in 1951.

The Church’s objection to the use of contraception, which was enshrined in the 1968 Papal encyclical, Humanae Vitae, delayed the legal availability of condoms and the contraceptive pill for decades. The Catholic Church in Ireland fought tooth and nail against the legalisation of condoms and the contraceptive pill. It was not until 1979 that then health minister Charles Haughey introduced the Health, in 1985, under an amendment to this Act, did condoms become legally available without prescription in Ireland.

In February 2011, Ireland became one of the last countries in Europe to make the morning after pill available over the counter following the Irish Medicines Board’s (IMB) approval of the sale of NorLevo without prescription.

The Church has also been at the forefront of the pro-life campaign against legislating for abortion in this country, even under the strictest of circumstances. A Supreme Court ruling in 1992 resulting from the X Case, allowed for women to be legally entitled to an abortion in Ireland if the mother’s life is in danger. However, successive governments have been reluctant to challenge the Church-led, pro-life lobby and transcribe this ruling into law, inspite of pressure from the European Court of Human Rights.

Just last month (april 2012), a Private Members’ Bill by TDs Clare Daly, Joan Collins and Mick Wallace calling on the Government to legislate for the X Case was rejected by 109 votes to 20.

The Catholic Church is also a central player in the debates around assisted reproduction, euthanasia and, more recently, stem cell research. In spite of the scandals that have emerged in recent years, the institution remains a strong influence in Irish life, with 84 per cent of the population describing themselves as Catholic in the last census.

A grim example of the power wielded by the Catholic Church over the medical profession is currently the subject of much debate and recrimination as the 150 or so women still alive today who were subjected to symphysiotomy during labour.

In the late 19th Century, the Church became alarmed at the increasing use of craniotomy in obstetric practice. In Queen’s University, it was routinely part of medical education but the Catholic Church took a very strong line against it. The Irish Ecclesiastical Record, which was the big Irish journal for the priesthood, had articles attacking the whole practice. While a lack of statistical information makes it difficult to estimate the number of women who may have died as a result of being denied craniotomies during labour.

During this same period between the 1860s and 1922, according to Ms Jones, the Catholic Church became intent on creating a denominational higher education system in Ireland so that it could control how Catholic university students were taught. The cause was strongly bolstered by the creation of the Catholic University (now UCD) in 1851. They wanted Catholics in the top jobs and it was about getting your own people in to crucial places. So they got at people and it worked.” This caused delays in building the hospital which, exacerbated by shortages of building materials throughout the 1940s, meant that it was 1956 when Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital, Crumlin finally opened. “It’s as stark as that – politics triumphed over compassion,” she said. “Children did die. They died in the 1930s and in the 1940s because they didn’t have a hospital.

TB control
The league was non-religious and its committee comprised both Catholic and Protestant members. However, Archbishop McQuaid was alarmed that the Protestant Trinity College-educated Ms Doherty was seen to be spearheading such an important initiative.

“He went to huge lengths behind the scenes to ensure that this would work. He approached the head of the Irish Red Cross. He even went as far as approaching Eamon de Valera, who was Taoiseach at the time. He approached Sean McEntee, the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. He got in touch with the Minister for Defensive Affairs who would have been in charge of the Red Cross. There were activation letters and phone calls going around, making sure that this happened.”

The Archbishop refused to attend the meeting, instead sending his representative Monsignor Maloney who read out a letter stating that he believed the Irish Red Cross [at the time an association with a strong Catholic ethos] should assume responsibility for any anti-tuberculosis campaigns. The campaign eventually faltered and was subsumed into the Irish Red Cross, ensuring that Ireland remained one of the few developed countries at that time without a national anti-tuberculosis league.

Dr Mac Lellan believes that the Catholic Church’s interference “hugely diluted the effect that might have been achieved by the group. It meant that an awful lot of the things they said they were going to do simply didn’t happen, a lot of the medical interventions and so on,” until the State assumed responsibility for tuberculosis later in the 1940s.

Needle exchange
In the 1980s, following the discovery of AIDS, intravenous drug misusers were quickly identified as a high-risk group, leading to the introduction of needle exchange programmes in many countries. Dr Colm O’Mahony, from the Department of Genitourinary Medicine (GUM) and HIV at the Countess of Chester NHS Foundation Trust, diagnosed the first AIDS patient in Ireland in 1985 and was instrumental in campaigning for needle exchange programmes to be introduced here.

“I remember writing to the Minister saying ‘this is what you have to do, Merseyside has hardly any HIV positive drug addicts now because of the needle exchange programme in the 1970s, whereas Dublin is decimated’.”

However, the proposal faced fierce opposition from the Catholic right-wing lobby and Dr O’Mahony was even informed by the Minister for Health in the 1980s that introducing such a programme would be seen as ‘condoning immoral behaviour’. Furthermore, he recalls a leaflet being distributed by the Children’s Protection Society around the time entitled ‘67 Reasons Why Condoms Spread AIDS’.

As recently as 1991, Dr O’Mahony was still campaigning for a needle exchange prog-ramme after returning to Dublin to do some locum clinics, where he was seeing “hundreds of HIV-positive drug addicts”. He said there are 40,000 regular drug injectors in Merseyside and a HIV population of around 2,500 to 3,000, but only 50 HIV positive drug users. In Dublin, almost 50 per cent of all injecting drug users are HIV positive.

“The Irish response was pathetic and disgraceful; there’s no other way to put it. Any politicians who had any part in that should hang their heads in shame,” he said.

Legacy issues
Even today the legacy of the power once held by the Catholic Church over the medical profession is still very much in evidence. Gay Doctors Ireland (GDI) were recently forced to go before the Dail and the Seanad to demand the repeal of Section 37.1 of the Employment Equality Act which specifically empowers religious “medical institutions” to discriminate against persons deemed “undermining” of its “religious ethos” or to give “more favourable treatment” to persons where “it is reasonable to do so in order to maintain [that] religious ethos”.

“Any employee working in Irish hospitals with a religious ethos or charter can be affected by S37.1, especially in terms of their initial recruitment and subsequent promotion,” GDI Chair Dr Leslie Hannon said.

Even within the profession, a small but significant number of practitioners consider Catholic teachings in some of the decisions they make. The Irish Catholic Doctors’ Association is an active group of around 60 members which meets two or three times a year.

As a practising Catholic, however, Dr Kehoe objects, as one might expect, to procedures such as abortion, artificial contraception and euthanasia. However, there are other, less obvious medical issues that can also cause conflict for Catholic doctors.

“The Catholic Church teaches that sex outside marriage is not good. It would be better within marriage,” he said.
“So, if a man comes to me and he has a problem with erectile dysfunction, he needs Viagra or something like that, and I know he’s not a married man, while I’m not saying I’ll refuse it outright, it’s not black and white.

sbsquarepants

Sean Brady, the same highly educated Sean Brady who swore two child rape victims to secrecy to protect the rapist but didn't realise what he was doing was disgusting, because "they were different times", lecturing people on morality and conscience?
Pass the fúcking sick bucket would you:mad:

james142

Who gives a fcuk what the church says anymore. They should have no impact on Irish law.

Sarky

+1 to "Go f*ck yourselves, archbishops of Ireland".

super_furry

Well more abortions would mean less neglected children for them to prey on.

Kylo Ren

davet82 wrote: »

I think we need an abortion forum...

And instead of getting locked, it gets 'Aborted'. Yeah.

creeper1

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Oh how I wish they'd keep their opinions to themselves. There's a teeny tiny minority of people in this country who give to shíts what the Church think.

All they've done for us is rain down misery and torture on the public, but they're too arrogant to think we might be fed up with them an their ill-informed opinions.

Go fúck yourself Archbishop.

Classy. But what do you expect from pro-deathers like yourself?

It is a moral issue. We need to stay human. Unborn don't have a voice.

If your mother had an abortion you wouldn't be here.

So you GFyourself.

Mod: Banned.

spank_inferno

Thats what the country needs.

Moral guidance from some sexless oddball wearing a frock, who takes orders from a ghost living in the sky.

My retort to the Bishops would be to ask when they plan on paying their (modest) share of compensation monies to the many victims of their sex abuse crimes?

hatrickpatrick

" the lives of untold numbers of unborn children now depend on the choices that will be made by public representatives."

And the lives of how many untold numbers of BORN children were destroyed by the choices made by archbishops?

Regardless of your view on abortion, the Catholic Church needs to shut the f*ck up about anything involving children's rights. They have not one iota of moral authority in this area and they never will again.

Well, they're entitled to express their opinions.




And we're entitled to be able to tell them to fcuk off.

Gaffs89

creeper1 wrote: »

Classy. But what do you expect from pro-deathers like yourself?

It is a moral issue. We need to stay human. Unborn don't have a voice.

If your mother had an abortion you wouldn't be here.

So you GFyourself.

So where do you stand on the" moral issue" of priests raping children?

RossFixxxed

creeper1 wrote: »

Classy. But what do you expect from pro-deathers like yourself?

It is a moral issue. We need to stay human. Unborn don't have a voice.

If your mother had an abortion you wouldn't be here.

So you GFyourself.

Just side stepping abortion for a sec (I'm not black and white on it) and your melodramatic 'pro deathers' which is also black and white beyond belief. The church are un-defendable at this point. They've arrested progress so many times and the sick, evil, horrible **** they have done is inexcusable.

Thankfully I'd imagine their power will wane further until they are a funny little old relic. An evil group that fell apart.

And if that's black and white let me say: there are great priests out there, but the whole Catholic church makes my physically sick to the pit of my stomach. The things they covered up makes their opinions totally unjustifiable.

Abortion: it's not always right, but it's not always wrong. It's a case by case thing, like most things in life. Anyone with such a one sided view is not worthy of much more of a reply than this tbh (on both sides).

creeper1

creeper1 wrote: »

If your mother had an abortion you wouldn't be here.
.

If your mother had given your father a bj instead, neither would you.

sbsquarepants

creeper1 wrote: »

Classy. But what do you expect from pro-deathers like yourself?

It is a moral issue. We need to stay human. Unborn don't have a voice.

If your mother had an abortion you wouldn't be here.

So you GFyourself.

Same could be true if his father had a ****, or his mother was more amenable to a spot of bum loving on that faithful day. Do you have a point at all?
Also, pro deathers? ha ha

Loomis

Killing your child is wrong. Always!













Except...if it's to save humanity from their sins. Then kill away. You don't even have to make it quick and painless.

curlzy

Sigh, can't believe they have the neck to come out with such tripe.

Sarky

Or if they'd shagged in a different position, another sperm would have gotten there first and someone else entirely would have been born.

steddyeddy

They're more vocal on this than the rape of children. In part facilitated by sean Brady. Why would that sub hunan ba#tard think I want his advice? Go f%ck yourselves you sick men.

sbsquarepants

Mr. Anderson wrote: »

Killing your child is wrong. Always!













Except...if it's to save humanity from their sins. Then kill away. You don't even have to make it quick and painless.

It's also ok if your imaginary friend tells you to do it, as a test of your loyalty!

dollypet

creeper1 wrote: »

Classy. But what do you expect from pro-deathers like yourself?

It is a moral issue. We need to stay human. Unborn don't have a voice.

If your mother had an abortion you wouldn't be here.

So you GFyourself.

Mod: Banned.

pro deathers?

:rolleyes:

Sarky

steddyeddy wrote: »

They're more vocal on this than the rape of children. In part facilitated by sean Brady. Why would that sub hunan ba#tard think I want his advice? Go f%ck yourselves you sick men.

Is Brady still maintaining that he did his duty? I don't really pay attention to those loons very often.

mikom

Diagonal movin' child molester protectin' bastards.
Shut your mouths.

eyescreamcone

I love the Archbishops calling for an "open vote" on this issue in the Dail.

Every ounce of Catholic policy has been proclaimed without an ounce of a democratic mandate from the people.

Now they want a free vote - go f*kk yourself, you dirty old men.
We won't listen to you anymore - you lot and you're kind are done here.
We're just mopping up your mess.

They shouldn't be given any more air time until they square up the child abuse debt they owe!!!

Spokes of Glory

OP, did you honestly expect them to issue a statement saying otherwise ?

I'm by no means an apologist for the church, but I fail to understand why you would get so worked up about a position they've made clear numerous times previously, and is pretty much unchanged for 2000 years or so. Like it or not a significant but declining portion of the population look to them for spiritual and moral guidance, and they're entitled to express a public opinion, which they have done, for what it's worth. I don't expect it comes as a surprise to the legislators either, so whatever changes are planned, will still go ahead.

Spokes

rainbow kirby

FIrst thought: "Will ye all just go and shíte".

steddyeddy

bluewolf wrote: »

If your mother had given your father a bj instead, neither would you.

Also if my aunty had balls she would be my uncle B-)

Lollipops23

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Same could be true if his father had a ****, or his mother was more amenable to a spot of bum loving on that faithful day. Do you have a point at all?
Also, pro deathers? ha ha

Sarky wrote: »

Or if they'd shagged in a different position, another sperm would have gotten there first and someone else entirely would have been born.

Ah jaysus lads, you're giving me some fierce mental images of my parents going at it here!!! :eek:

creeper1 wrote: »

Classy. But what do you expect from pro-deathers like yourself?

It is a moral issue. We need to stay human. Unborn don't have a voice.

If your mother had an abortion you wouldn't be here.

So you GFyourself.

Mod: Banned.

If my mother's life was at stake, if she was suicidal at the thought of giving birth or if her life would have been ruined by having me, I'd fully support her decision to terminate me.

I'm not arrogant enough to make this decision on behalf of the entire populous. Unlike the Church.

I stand by my earlier point: they've done nothing good for this country and its people. Why they think we care or heed anything they say now is beyond me.

Chuck Stone

creeper1 wrote: »

what do you expect from pro-deathers like yourself?

'Pro-deathers'.

As opposed to the immortalists?

eyescreamcone

Mr. Anderson wrote: »

Killing your child is wrong. Always!

However, removing some cells that could eventually grow into a child is not wrong.

Happy now?






Embryo then foetus then child I think.
Nobody is killing children.
Why? Because children are already born!


PS Did I leave out the zygote?
The god gang think that a zygote should have the same rights as a woman. Nutters!

Sarky

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Ah jaysus lads, you're giving me some fierce mental images of my parents going at it here!!! :eek:

The question is what position were they in when they had you?

Loomis

eyescreamcone wrote: »

However, removing some cells that could eventually grow into a child is not wrong.

Happy now?





Embryo then foetus then child I think.
Nobody is killing children.
Why? Because children are already born!

Wooooosh!

Stark

bluewolf wrote:

If your mother had given your father a bj instead, neither would you.

Oral sex is wrong.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Same could be true if his father had a ****, or his mother was more amenable to a spot of bum loving on that faithful day. Do you have a point at all?

All wrong wrong WRONG!

Sarky wrote:

Or if they'd shagged in a different position, another sperm would have gotten there first and someone else entirely would have been born.

That's wrong, missionary position only.

Gaffs89 wrote:

So where do you stand on the" moral issue" of priests raping children?

That's okay.

PurpleSt4in

A bunch of old virgins who preach morals from a church which has been outed as covering up child molesters, oh yes I'll listen to them loads. Tell me more.

meoklmrk91

Really does anyone pay any attention to this antiquated bull**** spouted by a bunch of child molesters and their protesters anymore?

The Catholic Church is dying a slow and painful death in this country, I only wish we could change the slow part. The vast majority are culturally catholic now, don't go to mass on Sundays but still bring their kids to be christened, go to Xmas mass etc. Anyone who can stand by this bunch of morally inept, subhuman scum and their teachings make me sick, they have done nothing but cause pain and misery to the people of this island and the sooner they are squashed the better.

tk123

They're entitled to their opinions yes..but I was under the impression I lived in the republic of Ireland, that I voted in elections to award power (or keep power away from gombeens) to govern the Republic of Ireland and my taxes etc are paid to the State which is - you've probably guessed it by now - the Republic or Ireland - not the Vatican or Roman Catholic Church of Ireland. So IMO Enda should tell them they'll take their ideas on board but the work for us the people of Ireland and not the f@@king church! GAH!

mikom

Want to puke some more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O17hbfowvhw

Duggy747

Yes, nothing like having the expertise of someone who doesn't have a family, in an organisation plagued with child abuse cases, still attempts to control how the country is run, how it's people and visitors are treated and has dire relationships and views towards women and homosexuals.

Their opinions are always rational and valid.


*cough*

Lollipops23

Sarky wrote: »

The question is what position were they in when they had you?

Reverse cowgirl FTW.

Nodin

mikom wrote: »

Want to puke some more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O17hbfowvhw

....what do you call that many gob****es when they flock together?

Anyhoo.......
http://www.herald.ie/news/spindoctor-calls-libertas-poll-failure-simons-psychotic-bitch-1778048.html

Cosmicfox

mikom wrote: »

Want to puke some more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O17hbfowvhw

Ugh, the 'irishy' flutes in the background just make me cringe. They keep bringing up our maternal death rate as though it's relevant...

super_furry

Nodin wrote: »

....what do you call that many gob****es when they flock together?

An affliction of thundercnuts is the correct term I believe.

eviltwin

According to the news at half five Enda is going to meet with Church leaders in the new year to discuss the issue. Why doesn't he make the effort to talk to the people actually affected by this ie the women of Ireland who have had to travel to the UK for abortions rather than listening to this bunch?

spank_inferno

eviltwin wrote: »

According to the news at half five Enda is going to meet with Church leaders in the new year to discuss the issue. Why doesn't he make the effort to talk to the people actually affected by this ie the women of Ireland who have had to travel to the UK for abortions rather than listening to this bunch?

I do hope the media will be there for pictures of Inda kneeling before each bishop and kissing the ring on their finger, just to display who really is in charge.

wp_rathead

fecking virgins

HondaSami

I don't know why people are surprised at the reaction from the church, did ye think they were going to support killing unborn children.
This thread will bash and insult the catholic church and anyone who prays in it, the usual from the outraged AH posters.

Min

Fairplay to the Archbishops.

They are effective at getting their message out, an upset Rabbitte and some upset on boards.ie.
It is fun to sit back and watch the reaction. I don't agree with some views of others, but they are entitled to their opinion, even if one thinks they are wrong.

Speaking of Rabbittes, the funny thing is a lot of the Labour party will be like the rabbit in Fatal Attraction or more aptly...aborted from power.
Though maybe Pat will not be boiled...sad really :P