Pat Finucane report finds 'shocking levels of collusion'

Ghandee

Once again the British state has been found to have colluded with loyalist paramilitaries in the north.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1212/breaking2.html

There was a significant doubt as to whether Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane would have been murdered by the UDA in February 1989 had it not been for the different strands of involvement by elements of the British state, a review into his death has found.

The 500-page report, by Sir Desmond da Silva QC, says that a series of positive actions by employees of the state "actively furthered and facilitated his murder" and there was a relentless effort to defeat the ends of justice in the aftermath of his killing.

"My review of the evidence relating to Patrick Finucane's case has left me in no doubt that agents of the State were involved in carrying out serious violations of human rights up to and including murder," it says.

Sir Desmond said he did not believe there was an "over-arching state conspiracy" to murder Mr Finucane but that "an extraordinary state of affairs was created" in which both the British army and the RUC special branch had prior notice of a series of planned UDA assassinations, yet nothing was done to prevent the attacks.

Britain once again has been shown to have Irish blood on its hands, and members of its security forces have once again been proven to have aided and abetted in murdering an innocent Irish man.

This man was killed in front of his wife and kids at his dinner table because he was a solicitor. Not a 'terrorist' a solicitor who happened to be a thorn in the side of the British justice system.

Surprised it hasn't been taken up on AH at this late stage.

sanbrafyffe

sure n.i was all conclusion then by british state forces/parimilatarys.just shows you how times and demograpics have changed in the once was so called orange state

all the british seem to be doing now is apologiseing

and yet they call for an ira apology,,,why shud they when this terrible news is being released

they way i see it as,,if there was no ira up there,,i dont think there mite be too many irish people living in n.i

seamus

Ghandee wrote: »

Surprised it hasn't been taken up on AH at this late stage.

Like the report on the bloody sunday shootings, the report isn't really a surprise to anyone. The dogs on the street knew that the authorities had been involved in Finucane's murder.

It's good that they've now acknowledged this and can action to bring anyone involved to justice.

Hopefully the Finucane family can find some solace in this report and the apologies of the British government and move on with their lives.

Ghandee

seamus wrote: »

Like the report on the bloody sunday shootings, the report isn't really a surprise to anyone. The dogs on the street knew that the authorities had been involved in Finucane's murder.

It's good that they've now acknowledged this and can action to bring anyone involved to justice.

Hopefully the Finucane family can find some solace in this report and the apologies of the British government and move on with their lives.

The Family have already condemned the report.

The widow of murdered Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane today dismissed the report into his death by Sir Desmond de Silva as "a sham... a whitewash... a confidence trick", telling a London press conference: "This report is not the truth.

" Renewing her call for a full public inquiry into her husband's 1989 death, Geraldine Finucane said that the British Government had suppressed the truth and attempted to throw all blame on dead individuals and disbanded organisations while exonerating ministers, serving officers and existing security agencies. Mrs Finucane said: "Yet another British government has engineered a suppression of the truth behind the murder of my husband, Pat Finucane.

"At every turn it is clear that this report has done exactly what was required - to give the benefit of the doubt to the state, its Cabinet and ministers, to the Army, to the intelligence services and to itself. "At every turn, dead witnesses have been blamed and defunct agencies found wanting. Serving personnel and active state departments appear to have been excused.

"The dirt has been swept under the carpet without any serious attempt to lift the lid on what really happened to Pat and so many others. "This report is a sham, this report is a whitewash, this report is a confidence trick dressed up as independent scrutiny and given invisible clothes of reliability. But most of all, most hurtful and insulting of all, this report is not the truth."

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/finucane-family-slam-whitewash-report-16249607.html

gurramok

seamus wrote: »

It's good that they've now acknowledged this and can action to bring anyone involved to justice.

Hopefully the Finucane family can find some solace in this report and the apologies of the British government and move on with their lives.

Still the age old problem, state agencies like MI5, RUC and British Army will face no fear of prosecution for their wrongdoing. That's the crux of it.

Micky Dolenz

Hope it doesn't add fuel to the fire of the current "protests".

gallag

Ghandee wrote: »

The Family have already condemned the report.




http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/finucane-family-slam-whitewash-report-16249607.html

If your sensationalist headline was true then why would the finucane family be unhappy with the report? The report actually dispelled state collusion but admitted some individual ruc men might have been involved, just like if one or two guards were involved in shady operations in the north it would not mean the Irish government were in colousion. Ps I delivered milk to Mrs finucane and found her to be a lovely lady, takes a special kind of scum bag to murder a man infrount of his wife and kids.

GRMA

The Brits agreed to a public enquiry in the Weston Park agreement... word is worth nothing seen as theyve pissed all over that agreement

thebigbiffo

I'm just going to throw this out there - but by this reports standards, there was a fair amount of 'blood on the hands' of irish officials as well.

Was a 2 way street that ugly f'ucking 'war' for the most part.

ElChe32

No one will be held accountable once again...how can Cameron say there was no state collusion.. I do recall Douglas Hogg calling for "something to be done with the pesky IRA sympathizer laywers". Enda Kenny has just called for a public inquiry.. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-in-fresh-call-for-public-inquiry-into-finucane-murder-577622.html

Zebra3

Meanwhile down here leading members of the RC church who facilitated child rape walk the streets free from any fear of prosecution.

Politicans down through the generations are still revered even though under their rule kids were handed over to sadistic groups fronting as religious institutions.

Even though the dogs on the street still knew what was going on.

Establishments doing what they do best.

Even today they still look after their own (now it's the banks...).

Dougal McGuire

scumbags

NinjaK

Not surprising, they invade and kill hundreds of thousands of people whenever they like, killing one person is nothing to them.

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

If your sensationalist headline was true then why would the finucane family be unhappy with the report? The report actually dispelled state collusion but admitted some individual ruc men might have been involved, just like if one or two guards were involved in shady operations in the north it would not mean the Irish government were in colousion.............

Bit more to it than that.

The De Silva report concluded that British army agent handlers "deliberately" helped loyalist gunmen select their targets in Northern Ireland in the 1980s.
But ministers may have been unaware that Finucane was being lined up for assassination, De Silva said.
The legal supervision of agents in paramilitary gangs was nonetheless woefully inadequate and the high-level ignorance was possibly intentional, his report said.

The prime minister admitted that the report made for "extremely difficult reading" in regard to Sir Desmond de Silva's findings, such as the revelation that 80% of the Ulster Defence Association's intelligence information came from official state sources

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/12/pat-finucane-report-david-cameron-apologises

dd972

wonder when the truth will out about who were pulling the strings behind Johnny Adair,Sam McCrory & C Company

Border-Rat

Surprised it hasn't been taken up on AH at this late stage.

Needs more Gerry McCabe.

Madam_X

thebigbiffo wrote: »

I'm just going to throw this out there - but by this reports standards, there was a fair amount of 'blood on the hands' of irish officials as well.

Was a 2 way street that ugly f'ucking 'war' for the most part.

Ah good old whataboutery. The Finucane case is the subject of this thread and nobody has said there wasn't malpractice by Irish officials.

Luca Brasi

Madam_X wrote: »

Ah good old whataboutery. The Finucane case is the subject of this thread and nobody has said there wasn't malpractice by Irish officials.

Nearly time to wheel out Jean McConville and used her for a bit of arguement

gurramok

Took what was it 23 years for this admittance of guilt to emerge. It took 39 years for the Bloody Sunday truth to emerge, a gain of 16 years is progress!

Madam_X

Luca Brasi wrote: »

Nearly time to wheel out Jean McConville and used her for a bit of arguement

And if this thread were about that particular despicable atrocity, I'd find someone barging in with "What about the other side?" equally distasteful. I don't get why some do that; it serves absolutely no purpose.

SEPT 23 1989

Of course there was collusion they were fighting under the same flag

sanbrafyffe

85% of loyalist intellengence was from the state authorithies,,terrible

Ghandee

Exactly why no one in the nationalist community ever felt comfortable in providing members of the 'security forces' with their details in the north for years.

That same UDR soldier could very easily have been sharing a pint with the local commander of the UVF in his local loyalist bar post shift.

A Dub in Glasgo

Nationalist community allege collusion between British security forces and Loyalist groups .... check
Nationalist community called IRA lovers by those in the media who never wanted to believe the truth.... check
No one held to account for the actions of the British state.... check
Whataboutry from those who do not want to believe the truth.... check

Seaneh

Zebra3 wrote: »

Meanwhile down here leading members of the RC church who facilitated child rape walk the streets free from any fear of prosecution.

Politicans down through the generations are still revered even though under their rule kids were handed over to sadistic groups fronting as religious institutions.

Even though the dogs on the street still knew what was going on.

Establishments doing what they do best.

Even today they still look after their own (now it's the banks...).

Jesus H Christ, what does your little rant have to do with anything mentioned in this thread? Seriously, could you not find another thread, preferably in after hours, to shoehorn your nonsense into?

cournioni

I wonder if David Cameron ever put an argument about carers allowance to Enda Kenny, would Kenny respond by shouting at Cameron to tell the truth about all of the bad stuff that happened in the North. Just a thought.

Mr Benevolent

Meh, no point in continuing to drag it up. You'd have to have been blind not to know it was happening, but why whine about it now?

Seaneh

Confab wrote: »

Meh, no point in continuing to drag it up. You'd have to have been blind not to know it was happening, but why whine about it now?

Because the families of the over 800 civilian nationalists murdered by loyalist paramilitaries (who got something like 80% of their intelligence from british agencies) would like to see the men responsible for their deaths brought to justice and the intelligence agencies who facilitated those murders properly investigated with anybody found to have worked with said loyalist paramilitaries also being brought to justice too?

gallag

Seaneh wrote: »

Because the families of the over 800 civilian nationalists murdered by loyalist paramilitaries (who got something like 80% of their intelligence from british agencies) would like to see the men responsible for their deaths brought to justice and the intelligence agencies who facilitated those murders properly investigated with anybody found to have worked with said loyalist paramilitaries also being brought to justice too?

The IRA killed more people than all the loyalists, security forces and other republicans put together, where are their inquires? What about Irish collusion? For ****s sake pull your self into the present, the sooner we all put this **** behind us and teach our children to foster respect and care for each other the better, do you even live up here? If not try to realise that we are enjoying the peace, no more days of over twenty bombs in one city.

Seaneh

gallag wrote: »

The IRA killed more people than all the loyalists, security forces and other republicans put together, where are their inquires? What about Irish collusion? For ****s sake pull your self into the present, the sooner we all put this **** behind us and teach our children to foster respect and care for each other the better, do you even live up here? If not try to realise that we are enjoying the peace, no more days of over twenty bombs in one city.

What's that? Oh, yeah, more whataboutery...

Last time I checked the IRA was an illegal organisation which no longer exists and is no longer tied to any political organisation, of which members were routinely locked up for their crimes or even just their membership of the organisation. So really, you're whataboutery is total nonsense.

The British government still exists, the british intelligence agencies still exist, the people guilty of the 818 nationalist civilian deaths within the british government and intelligence agencies are still not being punished.
Those are the simple facts and they are disgusting.

gurramok

gallag wrote: »

The IRA killed more people than all the loyalists, security forces and other republicans put together, where are their inquires? What about Irish collusion?

You just legitimised the IRA by giving them moral authority as representative of the Irish people, enjoy doing that?:mad:

To remind you, the RUC\MI5\British Army\British Govt are the legal internationally recognised legitimate agencies as representative of the British people, they are not supposed to be engaged in killing people.

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

You just legitimised the IRA by giving them moral authority as representative of the Irish people, enjoy doing that?:mad:

To remind you, the RUC\MI5\British Army\British Govt are the legal internationally recognised legitimate agencies as representative of the British people, they are not supposed to be engaged in killing people.

And how do you fell about Irish government collusion? Can we in the north expect an apology for that any time soon? To be honest I don't care, it won't change the fact that the troubles happend, that they were dirty and it sure won't help us move forward.

cournioni

gallag wrote: »

And how do you fell about Irish government collusion? Can we in the north expect an apology for that any time soon? To be honest I don't care, it won't change the fact that the troubles happend, that they were dirty and it sure won't help us move forward.

What Irish government collusion are you referring to?

thebigbiffo

Madam_X wrote: »

Ah good old whataboutery. The Finucane case is the subject of this thread and nobody has said there wasn't malpractice by Irish officials.

Here, the tone of the OP was inflammatory with statements like 'the British have once again been shown to have Irish blood on their hands'. My intention with the post you call 'whataboutery' was an attempt to counteract this.

I am firmly of the opinion that both sides need to move along. I understand that people want the truth, especially the families of people like Pat Finucane, but this was a very dirty conflict and the dogs on the street know that officials high up in government on both sides need were involved in atrocities.

The British have a lot of apologizing to do in general, not just to the Irish (who do so love being the victims of those dastardly British scoundrels).

thebigbiffo

cournioni wrote: »

What Irish government collusion are you referring to?

eh, this one sort of stands out!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Crisis

Seaneh

thebigbiffo wrote: »

eh, this one sort of stands out!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Crisis

You mean where they were removed from office and the whole thing fell apart before the guns ever arrived and both parties were punished?

Because that's a ****ing terrible example, in fairness.

Ghandee

thebigbiffo wrote: »

eh, this one sort of stands out!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Crisis

Jesus wept.

The very first line of that linked article has the word allegedly in it, and then goes on to say the following.

At the trial there was a direct contradiction of evidence regarding the sanctioning of the imports between Haughey and the chief prosecutorial witness, Jim Gibbons who was Minister for Defence at the time of the attempted imports. Haughey admitted arranging customs clearance for the shipment, but claimed in his defense that he did not know it consisted of weapons. This directly contradicted the evidence of Jim Gibbons and Peter Berry that Haughey was fully aware of all the details of the conspiracy. It also contradicted the stories of his co-defendants, who admitted that they had tried to import weapons, but maintained that the shipment had been legally authorised by the government. [1]

During the trial the judge remarked that either Haughey or Gibbons had to be committing perjury. [4]

The evidence during the trial did show that, although suspected by some, the government was not funding the Provisional IRA.

Did you read that article, or did you post it blindly

gallag

http://www.victims.org.uk/extradition.html

A terrorist could kill by bomb, escape from prision across the border and be sheltered by the Irish government only to pop back up to murder again.

Seaneh

gallag wrote: »

http://www.victims.org.uk/extradition.html

A terrorist could kill by bomb, escape from prision across the border and be sheltered by the Irish government only to pop back up to murder again.

Keep on reaching there timmy, someday you'll find that moral high ground you're aiming for...

not.

Ghandee

Seaneh wrote: »

Keep on reaching there timmy, someday you'll find that moral high ground you're aiming for...

not.

Is it Keith?

Back again?

Seaneh

Ghandee wrote: »

Is it Keith?

Back again?

I don't think so, he seems older anyway.

gallag

Seaneh wrote: »

Keep on reaching there timmy, someday you'll find that moral high ground you're aiming for...

not.

That's your reply. If the British government was harboring terrorists who bombed Dublin you would be crying about it.

Seaneh

gallag wrote: »

That's your reply. If the British government was harboring terrorists who bombed Dublin you would be crying about it.

They harbour terrorists who were involved in the murder of 818 civilian irishmen and women and I don't cry about it. I just demand justice.

gallag

Seaneh wrote: »

They harbour terrorists who were involved in the murder of 818 civilian irishmen and women and I don't cry about it. I just demand justice.

I suppose justice for all the innocent Irish men and women killed by the IRA would mean nothing to you, just them brits.

Seaneh

gallag wrote: »

I suppose justice for all the innocent Irish men and women killed by the IRA would mean nothing to you, just them brits.

you know what they say about assuming things?

when you assume, you're just a dick :-D

A Dub in Glasgo

Just watched George Galloway talk about this and others

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=B_avWk6TojA

18.22 in