Quinn: Schools spend too much time on religion and Irish

slarkin123

My name is URL wrote: »

How would that work exactly? What if only 10% of kids opt to study Irish? Would it be justified to employ a teacher just for them?

No i wouldn't agree with having to hire additional teachers for a small percentage. But there are already plenty if qualified Irish teachers at the moment. Schools could use the Irish teachers they have at the moment. Its down the years where difficulty will begin.

Louthdrog

Im a science/maths teacher now. This thread has made me realize that I never studied any form of science at primary school level (Only left primary school in 2004). The closest would have been "Nature" which usually involved bringing in leaves and displaying them on a table. Never actually looked at anything scientific until first year in secondary school.
I was of course fed the usual religious crap as "fact". Thinking back, the amount of time spent on Religion versus Science is scary. Hundreds of hours of my life were probably spent listening to far fetched stories or learning off prayers. Think of how that time could have been spent, learning about interesting and useful stuff!
Absolutely backward stuff

Holsten

Remove religion and replace Irish with French/German/Spanish/Etc

pablomakaveli

They should just get rid of Religion. Its a waste of time. (Though i admit i used to like it in school because it was a doss class)

As for Irish, i've said it countless times but the approach to teaching it needs to change. Teach them how to speak the language and just do away with teaching Irish poetry and literature (maybe make that a leaving cert subject) and we'll see an increase in fluency in Irish.

gallag

Lelantos wrote: »

And driving?

Not if over 60mph

redandwhite

VinLieger wrote: »

The history and power of religion is taught in history class, but teaching children how to worship and that one relgion out of the hundreds of other choices out there is the right one as a subject in school is just plain wrong

Have you looked at the JC and LC syllabi recently?

Theres a lot more to Religion these days than the indoctrination of the Catholic/Major Christian denominations.

shantolog

I can understand the point of questioning how it is being taught, and in my opinion is it taught badly, but to question whether it should be taught at all is ridiculous.

Can you imagine some Estonian person saying " Estonian is crap and shouldn't be taught in Estonian schools".
I imagine the ONLY countries where this type of conversation is being had is in countries which are, or were former colonies in which their culture and language were systematically destroyed to cement their colonisation, and a language has been imported to run government and local business.

There would be plenty of examples in Africa, and I believe Ireland is an example of this. Our attitude to the language of Irish is simply a hangover from former generations being put into a position of having to use English and almost unlearn Irish in order to get employment and try and make a living for their families.

We need a serious overhaul of how it is taught in schools, we don't need to abandon it. Linguistic diversity is not a bad thing.

And if we are going to teach any language for business reasons it should not be French it should be Mandarin:pac:

Solair

Irish should be available as a subject, but it should be just conversational Irish in primary school ... get up a bit of fluency, learn about the culture and it shouldn't be dominating the whole day.

In secondary school it should be a conversation course (non-examined) anything else should be optional. There's no reason why it shouldn't be offered as a full subject with literature and everything, but not compulsory.

Some people would want to study it, regardless of whether it's compulsory or not.

gallag

The people that are quick to waste their kids time and education on a dead language should do a night course and learn it themselves, let adults decide if they want to learn it.

books4sale

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Considering the number of countries in the developed world that's a fairly scary statistic for Ireland.

I spent a few years in South Korea, religion never even gets a mention in the schools, students go to school to learn, not get brain washed with non factual sh*te.

Pottler

Dump Irish and teach science and technology. If the Teachers can't cope, dump them as well and hire ones that can.

Which private business would come out with the codology that "we can't change as our staff would be unable to deliver"? Deliver, or stand aside so that someone else can do the job of delivering.

I see the education my kids are getting and it is very poor - hours spent each evening fumbling over a load of old codswallop Gaelic that they will NEVER use, ever and have no more than a passing clue as to what the teacher is on about.

More days gone to retreats, masses, communion preparation, confirmation preparation, priests visits, nuns visits, saints days, blah blah blah. If I want them taught a religion, I'll do it myself thanks, ye get on with teaching them maths, geography, computer science and how to spell "taught".

MadsL

Drives me nuts when people talk about teaching "Religion" in schools. There are two separate things, there is Religious Instruction - teaching someone how to be a follower of a religion, and there is Religious Studies, teaching people about religions and human value and moral systems, in order to foster understanding, respect and tolerance of different faiths and cultures.

One clearly has no place in schools. The other is astonishingly neglected and mocked.

Jimoslimos

gallag wrote: »

What's the point in Irish? It's like Ulster Scotts, the child would benefit from learning French or German etc.

Ulster Scots isn't a language, it's a glorified dialect. Anyway let's not get sidetracked. If we can't teach Irish to an acceptable standard then we won't have any luck trying to replace it with other supposedly more useful ones.

Teaching languages isn't a matter of either/or. If you master one (fairly basic Irish) it makes subsequent ones easier to pick up.

Mr Whirly wrote: »

I feel the same way about Irish as you do about religion. It should be taught outside school to people interested in learning it. Academic subjects in school should be beneficial to students and not a complete waste of time, money and resources.

No, school should be about giving children the tools to think for themselves and form their own ideas (which is precisely why religion should have no place). It is not simply a factory to produce trained clones of what multinational companies require from graduates.

books4sale

Pottler wrote: »

More days gone to retreats, masses, communion preparation, confirmation preparation, priests visits, nuns visits, saints days, blah blah blah. ".

What is this? The figgin 70's.

Seriously, you're the parent, why don't stand up and say something FFS!

Pottler

books4sale wrote: »

What is this? The figgin 70's.

Seriously, you're the parent, why don't stand up and say something FFS!

Primary school that he's finished with at the end of this academic year. It's the local school and that's the "ethos" - if you complained, your kids life would be a misery.

Solair

On the religious side of things - The problem is that we have completely confused 'education' and 'indoctrination'.

The two are VERY different.

Education about religion, would be discussing it, analysing it, talking about it, looking at the history, sociological implications etc etc.

Indoctrination is where you sing lots of songs over and over again, say prayers over and over, get down your your knees etc etc and are expected to believe something and partake in ceremonies.

Irish is taught as a cultural requirement, not a practical one. I have no issue with teaching it, but I think it needs to be a choice for students. It's a hugely difficult subject for some people, particularly if you've no natural flare for languages or interest in them.

Someone who is excellent at maths, science, business or whatever, has to devote vast amounts of time to doing literature in a language that isn't' their native tongue. That's really unfair and probably means they end up reducing their options at 3rd level by dragging their grades down too.

VinLieger

redandwhite wrote: »

Have you looked at the JC and LC syllabi recently?

Theres a lot more to Religion these days than the indoctrination of the Catholic/Major Christian denominations.

No i havent but i sincerely doubt it has changed enough where kids arent being taught specific paryers and catholicism is given the majority of the time
I know several recently qualified primary teachers and have heard the bizarre details of the religion exams teachers have to go through to simply get their qualifications.
These exams have had a pretty detailed thread on here and are shocking to say the least http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056553324

Solair

VinLieger wrote: »

No i havent but i sincerely doubt it has changed enough where kids arent being taught specific paryers and catholicism is given the majority of the time
I know several recently qualified primary teachers and have heard the bizarre details of the religion exams teachers have to go through to simply get their qualifications.
These exams have had a pretty detailed thread on here and are shocking to say the least http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056553324

Apparently if you don't pass you have to go for trial by water too!:D (The re-sit)
Weeds out any of those nasty agnostics, atheists, unreformed hippies etc..

mackerski

cmssjone wrote: »

Irish is part of your heritage

Have we met?

cmssjone

mackerski wrote: »

Have we met?

Your point?

mackerski

shantolog wrote: »

Can you imagine some Estonian person saying " Estonian is crap and shouldn't be taught in Estonian schools".

I can imagine an ethnic Russian saying it, but I wouldn't expect him to get very far. The reason? Estonian is the native language (by that I mean the one they grow up knowing how to speak, speak it in the home, choose it as their day-to-day language etc.) of most people in Estonia.

It would indeed be odd to banish such a language from the schools.

books4sale

Pottler wrote: »

Primary school that he's finished with at the end of this academic year. It's the local school and that's the "ethos" - if you complained, your kids life would be a misery.

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from, probably one of these small country schools. But with all the brainwashing religious sh*te they were drilling into us back in the mid 80's I couldn't hold back and see the same happen to my own kids.

The cycle has to be broken, our generation has to do that if only for the sake of the next, when your kids are older they will have more respect for you for standing up and not taking any more of this sh*te!

mackerski

cmssjone wrote: »

Your point?

It's normally down to the individual to know what his heritage is. Some would consider it arrogant of somebody else to assume to know better.

PseudoFamous

religion being taught in schools is fine so long as it's taught objectively and all religions are given proportional attention. Maybe a twice monthly lark if needs be, but frankly it could be done away with to little ill effect.

However, my real issue with Irish primary education comes with History. In History, I was taught about Cu Chulainn, Ferdia, Brown Bull of Cooley, all that useless fucking horseshit. I knew NOTHING of actual history, but my brain was and still is stuffed with these literal fairy tails, and they were taught in "history". It's fucking ludicrous. Get that shit out of the classroom, religion at least deserves acknowledgement, but mythology is a load of ****

Jimoslimos

Solair wrote: »

Someone who is excellent at maths, science, business or whatever, has to devote vast amounts of time to doing literature in a language that isn't' their native tongue. That's really unfair and probably means they end up reducing their options at 3rd level by dragging their grades down too.

I think there's a lot of things that could be improved about our education system, but I do actually like the more rounded approach to our learning.

All children should have a basic grasp of both the humanities and sciences before leaving school or entering 3rd level. I think it reflects better on an individual how they approach subjects they don't have a natural aptitude for. Don't forget that in 3rd level, even amongst preferred subjects, there will be modules you like less than others - it is usually your performance in these that determine how well you do.

hatrickpatrick

Solair wrote: »

I would propose as an interim measure, that primary schools be organised into school districts with one principal per district.
Maybe take all the schools in one suburb / one town (work it on some population model) and then merge them when the funds are available. But, in the interim perhaps use the existing buildings as a single organisation.

Disastrous idea. Competition is how you get these organizations to perform well, if you merge them then they each effectively have a monopoly in the area and standards will go straight out the window.

Leadamp

Irish should be a choice in secondary school and religion should be a choice for the parents to make in national school and the students choice in secondary school. I've been learning Irish for 12 years and the most I can say is my name, age and where I live.

Rodin

gallag wrote: »

What's the point in Irish? It's like Ulster Scotts, the child would benefit from learning French or German etc. I think sport and religion should be scrapped and sports clubs on Saturdays and religion on Sundays if required. That way children will not be sent home with houres of homework destroying family time.

Irish unlike Ulster-Scots is an actual language.

Not something you'd hear out of Rab C Nesbitt's mouth after a few too many swallies.

Celly Smunt

Leadamp wrote: »

Irish should be a choice in secondary school and religion should be a choice for the parents to make in national school and the students choice in secondary school. I've been learning Irish for 12 years and the most I can say is my name, age and where I live.

You'll still get an A if you learn an essay where you house goes on fire and you end up at a U2 concert,and have the ability to write a postcard to your imaginary friends Sile and Sean.

hatrickpatrick

Oh and on the subject of Irish, let's delve into why exactly students seem to generally do a lot better at French.

Oh yeah, maybe it's because the subject "Irish" at school is NOT ABOUT LEARNING TO SPEAK A LANGUAGE.

We spent almost all our time at leaving cert level learning paper 2, that's the literature paper. Hours and hours learning the most mind numbingly dull and depressing sh!te. Off the top of my head, we had a story about a depressed woman with an abusive husband, a whole bunch of poems which were mainly all revolving around famine and war, and a few others I can't even remember the stories of. The only one which was entertaining and amusing was An Cearrbach Mac Caba, which is about a gambler who bets against the grim reaper and consistently outsmarts him. That's the ONLY story on the entire course which is engaging and brings a smile to your face, all the rest of them would have you swearing that the only thing Irish writers are able to tell stories about is death, war, hunger, and general misery.

Why is this? I know for a fact that there are plenty of upbeat poems, songs and stories in Irish which would have your average class of kids in stitches, why instead do they have to go for stuff which is either totally mundane and boring, or downright depressing?

And aside from the above, why is so much time spent on this literature instead of actually learning how to SPEAK THE LANGUAGE?
Like, you start learning how to pronounce and read aloud these words before you've barely touched what they actually mean. At that stage you're not learning how to speak, you're learning how to mimic. How many people out there can sing the Dragostea Din Tei song (numa numa iei) without having a clue what the words actually mean? This is not how you teach someone how to speak a second language.