Unaccompanied learner drivers face penalty points

Permabear

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Faith+1

About bloody time. They pass a computerised exam and think they're qualified to drive by themselves when it's illegal in 99.9% of the world!?

They can bitch and moan "I'm a better driver than most full licenced drivers" so I shouldn't be off the road. Then if you're better, Pass the bloody thing. The Irish driving test is a joke compared to our EU neighbours.

TwoShedsJackson

They only double the points if you challenge it in court and lose, so you could be done twice as long as you just accept it and pay the fine too.

Of course, without proper enforcement, none of this is worth a damn.

finnharpsboy

this whole driving unaccompanied thing is ridiculous...

Anyone who hasn't taken the test (made to display a L1 plate) shouldn't be allowed on the road on their own.
Anyone on a second LP who has taken the test (L+ plate) should be allowed to drive unaccompanied say between 6am and 6pm, or within a 5 mile radius of the address on the licence, in order to gain confidence on the road.
For a third or subsequent LP haven taken the test an L+ plate should be displayed.
All L plates should have 6 pts ban.

If caught on L1, 3pts for unaccompanied, 3pts for non display. On L2 maybe 2 and 2, and L+ should be 1 and 1.

Or something like that imo.

Xers

I feel lucky to be passed before its coming.... it was in one of the newspapers last month or so in view of increasing no of L Drivers involved in accidents...

Christineynini

So does these penalty points only apply to lp's issued after the bill has been amended? If that is the case then where do current learner permit holders stand if they are caught driving unaccompanied, is it the same fine as before?

Victor

Christineynini wrote: »

So does these penalty points only apply to lp's issued after the bill has been amended? If that is the case then where do current learner permit holders stand if they are caught driving unaccompanied, is it the same fine as before?

Penalty points apply from the date of the offence,not the date of the licence.

dchris

I think testing in Ireland is a big issue that needs to be addressed. Trying to discover if someone is adequate enough to drive from an exam situation is flawed on the very basis of it being an exam. Plus it is massively expensive. It needs to be gauged on lessons (at least 10 hours) and the instructors need to have an input into their student's pass rate. eg a 50 % grade passed on to the final examiner.
In many instances people fail on minor issues that are brought on through stress of the examination and the sheer knowing of the further expenses & potential detrimental affects failure will have on them.
People who have passed their test are at times smug to those who are learners. I think most learners are much better drivers than those behind the wheel for an extended period. The test should be awarded on the basis of a grade awarded by a registered instructor combined with a grade awarded by the state examiner. Furthermore, people should be tested once every 5 years in a mini test. Peoples driving deteriorates greatly after a time and in the interest of safety it should be exposed to regular checks just like the vehicle itself

areyawell

been driving on my own for over a year now. Never stopped, went through checkpoints and they waved me on, just checked tax and insurance.

I for one are delighted at this. 2 penalty points on the license is grand if caught(not if you had previous penalty points). I will get my full license eventually but it is expensive.

Also I think that when a persons license expires after 10 years with the new fee thing that's coming in they should be made take a test. Some full license drivers are brutal. I'm not just saying that to annoy people buts its the truth. Just beause you have the full license doesn't mean you have to stop using indicators!

Victor

dchris wrote: »

It needs to be gauged on lessons (at least 10 hours) and the instructors need to have an input into their student's pass rate. eg a 50 % grade passed on to the final examiner.

This happens to an extent already - everyone is obliged to do a certain number of hours with a registered instructor and the instructor needs to pass them as capable of doing the test.

Having an instructor contribute to the final mark may be inappropriate.

Motor-Ed

The mandatory lessons EDT has no facility for the Instructor to pass a student as being capable of the test.

The Learner Permit system is not enforced so no expectation that this penalty point system or new N plate system will work either without enforcement.

Victor wrote: »

This happens to an extent already - everyone is obliged to do a certain number of hours with a registered instructor and the instructor needs to pass them as capable of doing the test.

Having an instructor contribute to the final mark may be inappropriate.

deadman1972

Simple solution is NOBODY should be allowed to drive on the road in any vechicle unaccompanied unless they have a full licence:eek: Also raise the driving age to 21 before you can even get a provisional.

areyawell

deadman1972 wrote: »

Simple solution is NOBODY should be allowed to drive on the road in any vechicle unaccompanied unless they have a full licence:eek: Also raise the driving age to 21 before you can even get a provisional.

Ah come on now. I drive on my own for the last year since its not enforced. What about all the people with full licences who overtake me going 120 km/h in a 80 zone and don't know how to use their indicators on roundabouts or the correct lane to use on a roundabout. Provisional license drivers tend not to speed, in my expierence of any other ones I met.
What is the main cause of death on Irish roads SPEED.

I think people should be made retake the test every 10 years when there license expires and steeper penalty points if there caught speeding or on the phone.

H3llR4iser

areyawell wrote: »

Ah come on now. I drive on my own for the last year since its not enforced. What about all the people with full licences who overtake me going 120 km/h in a 80 zone and don't know how to use their indicators on roundabouts or the correct lane to use on a roundabout. Provisional license drivers tend not to speed, in my expierence of any other ones I met.
What is the main cause of death on Irish roads SPEED.

I think people should be made retake the test every 10 years when there license expires and steeper penalty points if there caught speeding or on the phone.

To drive a car you need a license, full stop. The driving test is very basic as it serves as a barrier: its goal is not to assess if one can drive, but to keep the people still learning the basics off the roads until they manage to overcome their difficulties. A lot of the learners permit holders actually failed their test, often multiple times; Failing such a basic test means that they don't posses even the most elementary control of the vehicle and situational awareness; Still, these people are on the road.

Another very important function of the driving test is to push a learner driver to improve, learn from their mistakes and quash bad habits. Serves as a motivation. If you eliminate the pressure, people will be convinced they're fine as soon as they can move a car. Exactly the way you seem to think.

deadman1972

No actually speed is not the main cause of road deaths imho, lack of common sense is,if you are going to do 60mph through a town chances are you are going to kill someone. Thats more to do with lack of common sense being the root cause than speed.

And sorry but i stand by my idea that nobody should be allowed on the road un attended until they have a full licence and if caught should loose their licence automatically for mandatory six months. Same way drunk drivers should get an automatic life ban and their vechicle automatically crushed no room for appeal.Time to stop pissing around and get serious, law should be enforced or stop whinging about road deaths.

areyawell

H3llR4iser wrote: »

To drive a car you need a license, full stop. The driving test is very basic as it serves as a barrier: its goal is not to assess if one can drive, but to keep the people still learning the basics off the roads until they manage to overcome their difficulties. A lot of the learners permit holders actually failed their test, often multiple times; Failing such a basic test means that they don't posses even the most elementary control of the vehicle and situational awareness; Still, these people are on the road.

Another very important function of the driving test is to push a learner driver to improve, learn from their mistakes and quash bad habits. Serves as a motivation. If you eliminate the pressure, people will be convinced they're fine as soon as they can move a car. Exactly the way you seem to think.

I'm not disputing the fact of the driving test. The gaurds don't enforce the rule so will I let my car sit at home or drive it? I choose to drive it because I won't get in trouble for it.
What about all the full license holders with there terrible habits? What can be done about them?

areyawell

deadman1972 wrote: »

No actually speed is not the main cause of road deaths imho, lack of common sense is,if you are going to do 60mph through a town chances are you are going to kill someone. Thats more to do with lack of common sense being the root cause than speed.

And sorry but i stand by my idea that nobody should be allowed on the road un attended until they have a full licence and if caught should loose their licence automatically for mandatory six months. Same way drunk drivers should get an automatic life ban and their vechicle automatically crushed no room for appeal.Time to stop pissing around and get serious, law should be enforced or stop whinging about road deaths.

Yes but should full license drivers made to retake the test every 10 years or a shorter time span, every 5 years. Some of there driving is woeful! Stop whinging about road deaths? I'm talking about full license drivers who are terribly dangerous, who don't use indicators and are constantly overtaking me in dangerous situations and driving right up my hole, Dont know what lane to take at a roundabout!

I'm all for the test but should be restructured. If not enforced by garda then people will take advantage of driving on their own.

deadman1972

Thats like saying "officer if you don't stop me walking into town square and shooting people then you have no right to complain when i do", if you think about it you are breaking the law, you are unlicenced since you are unaccompanied, you are wrong, full stop. Like i said and i am sorry but its time to stop pissing around and this attitude of sure twill be ok belongs in the dark ages.

The fact that you think what you are doing is acceptable is exactly what is wrong, bad attitude of entitlement, i have a right kinda thing. Sorry but i am fed up with hearing that.

However i will have to give you one thing, brilliant idea on full licence holders re sitting the test every 5yrs,i think thats a suitable time frame. Also anyone over 60yrs should be made take it every 3yrs,over 70yrs take it every year,over 80yrs off the road regardless.

the_syco

areyawell wrote: »

What is the main cause of death on Irish roads SPEED.

Actually, it's bad driving.

deadman1972 wrote: »

Same way drunk drivers should get an automatic life ban and their vechicle automatically crushed no room for appeal.

I take it you support a 0% alcohol drink drive limit, with drivers banned from using mouthwash?

the_syco

deadman1972 wrote: »

over 80yrs off the road regardless.

Lock them up (in their homes) and throw away the key? Seriously?

deadman1972

No smartarse i don't support a zero alcohol limit,that makes no sense. However i believe that anyone caught with a level of blood alcohol indicating the consumption of an alcoholic beverage should be put off the road permanently without appeal.

deadman1972

FFS syco who said anything about locking up old people? However given the degree with which at that advanced age the eyesight is diminished and reaction time and observation skills have diminished i don't believe its worth the risk. Ok i will give you its a bit harsh, make them take test every year so, hows that?

areyawell

deadman1972 wrote: »

Thats like saying "officer if you don't stop me walking into town square and shooting people then you have no right to complain when i do", if you think about it you are breaking the law, you are unlicenced since you are unaccompanied, you are wrong, full stop. Like i said and i am sorry but its time to stop pissing around and this attitude of sure twill be ok belongs in the dark ages.

The fact that you think what you are doing is acceptable is exactly what is wrong, bad attitude of entitlement, i have a right kinda thing. Sorry but i am fed up with hearing that.

However i will have to give you one thing, brilliant idea on full licence holders re sitting the test every 5yrs,i think thats a suitable time frame. Also anyone over 60yrs should be made take it every 3yrs,over 70yrs take it every year,over 80yrs off the road regardless.

I'm not saying i'm entitled to it, if the gaurds were stricter like in the UK I would not take my car out without a fully licensed driver. Yes people shouldn't be allowed without a fully licensed driver beside them but if you don't get done for it and rule not enforced then people will obviously take advantage. If i didn't get the car and drive on provisional I would be unable to attend college

JP Liz V1

While this is good idea will the Gardai actually enforce it :rolleyes:

The price of lessons and the driving test should be reduced

testx

Victor wrote: »

Penalty points apply from the date of the offence,not the date of the licence.

From citizensinformation.ie :

When do the points take effect from - the date I committed the offence?

No. If you have committed a driving offence that incurs penalty points you will receive a written notification from the Road Safety Authority (RSA) informing you of the fact that the appropriate number of penalty points are being added to your driving licence. This notice will include details of your name, address, date time and location of the driving offence concerned and confirmation of the fact that you either paid the fixed charge for the offence or were convicted in the court of such offence. The notice will also contain a date on which the notice was issued to you. This is the important date as the points will only be added to your licence 28 days after this date. "

So if the offence occurs less than a month before the Bill passes, the increased penalty points will be applied. Just for clarification.

deadman1972

areyawell Thats exactly what you are saying that you are entitled,oh if you are not going to catch me Garda then i am ENTITLED to break the law,thats what you are saying,from your own words buddy not mine. Tell ya what my GSD is sitting beside me now and is illegal for me to say break her neck, but ya know what according to you being that i would get away with it would make it ok. Thats a fair comparison since you are risking your own life and ours by driving unlicenced on the roads.

And before some smartarse says it, no i do not intend breaking my dogs neck,it was a comparitive statement of personal opinion is all. areyawell what you are saying is this " i am entitled to go to college therefore in order to get there i am entitled to break the law, and put peoples lives at risk by driving with no licence and no insurance when i know i should not, but its ok since its the Garda's job to catch me not my job to obey the law".

If that prevents you from attending college well guess what,tough titty that's life,get over it and start acting as responsibly as you can.

deadman1972

Let me re iterate something that was posted earlier by an OP "driving is a PRIVELAGE, NOT a RIGHT":eek:

the_syco

deadman1972 wrote: »

No smartarse i don't support a zero alcohol limit,that makes no sense.

That's grand. Most of the people that support permanent ban usually also wants a zero alcohol ban which is hard to enforce.

deadman1972 wrote: »

FFS syco who said anything about locking up old people?

At that age, the car is often the only way old people get to leave their house, as walking is often too far to anywhere. No war would leave many old people in their homes most of the week, unable to go anywhere, esp in rural Ireland. And as bad as the senile people are, they're usually a lot safer then some of the kids driving around.

deadman1972

Syco i know i am being very general here but unfortunately we have neither the logistical resources,the money,or the inclination to be more specific.My own dad is 80 next year and still drives,however you get to a point however unpleasent where the risk outweighs the reward tbh. With very eldery drivers however good you must take into account slowed reaction and observation plus deteriorating eyesight,its that simple really,its unfair but its that simple imho.

smileyj1987

I think it is a waste gardai resources having them clamp down on learner drivers who drive un-accompanied . I think they should make a few changes to the driving license laws to promote safety and actually making sure we have people on the road that can drive properly . To me people should be allowed drive on the road un accompanied but they should make these mandatory laws for provisional licence drivers .

Provisional License Changes .

1. No Provisional License should be issued without completing 10 hours worth of driving lessons .
2. All Vehicles that are being driven by a provisional license holder should be fitted with a tracker to deter speeding and driving on roads that they are not allowed to drive on like Motorways .
3. They should drop the cost of driving lessons to €15 / € 20 and you have to do a 1 hour lesson every second / third week until you pass your full test .
4. A provisional License should last one year and you only get three of them and then you have to pass your full test .

I know it has been pointed out but they should re test people also because alot of people are shocking at driving and they hold full licenses . If you fail the re-test you go back to a provisional licence and you have to complete 15 lessons before you do a re-test .

areyawell

deadman1972 wrote: »

areyawell Thats exactly what you are saying that you are entitled,oh if you are not going to catch me Garda then i am ENTITLED to break the law,thats what you are saying,from your own words buddy not mine. Tell ya what my GSD is sitting beside me now and is illegal for me to say break her neck, but ya know what according to you being that i would get away with it would make it ok. Thats a fair comparison since you are risking your own life and ours by driving unlicenced on the roads.

And before some smartarse says it, no i do not intend breaking my dogs neck,it was a comparitive statement of personal opinion is all. areyawell what you are saying is this " i am entitled to go to college therefore in order to get there i am entitled to break the law, and put peoples lives at risk by driving with no licence and no insurance when i know i should not, but its ok since its the Garda's job to catch me not my job to obey the law".

If that prevents you from attending college well guess what,tough titty that's life,get over it and start acting as responsibly as you can.

I am not saying I'm entitled to it whatsoever and stop misquoting me. Yes it is the law and I know I'm not exempt it and I know I am breaking the law. It is my choice and If I ever get done I will take my 2 penalty points and 100 quid fine and get on with it. The benefits outweigh the risk. Do you think I would sit at home and wait for my full license for a year maybe two years and not attend college? The way the system works that if you end up getting caught and tell the gaurd you have a test booked and that you need the car for college or work they will let you off which happened many of my friends at checkpoints. I was stopped at two checkpoints and all they did was check my tax and insurance and was on my way. The only way the gaurds will do you if you are doing something stupid and dangerous while driving and then they will pull you over and summons you e.g. going through a red light, speeding. The way you are talking is that all learner drivers or terrible drivers and or the cause of every accident on the road.

I think the majority of learner drivers or safer than the ones with the full license drivers as you never see them speeding. How is me driving put peoples lives at danger when theres idiots on the road who are constantly speeding, overtaking in dangerous situations, unable to use roundabouts properly, refuse to indicate, tailgate, drink driving, dangerous cutting on motorways aloud on the road and these are the people at risk for causing accidents.I do not like getting taken over on a 80 km/h road by some lunatic with traffic oncoming and going 120 km/h. I witness this every day driving.

They way you are telling it is, if a fully licensed driver is driving irresponsibily and knocks down someone its okay because they have there 20 min test past?