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Protest against "anti austerity protesters".

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2

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    #32
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,186 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    Who is up for starting an anti anti austerity protesters protest. These muppets are trying to destroy our country. I for one like that our hospitals and schools are still open, I appreciate that we still have guards doing their job. If these protesters get their way we are fukced. They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option, it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

    You never answered my question from the last thread: which bank are you running?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #33
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Hmm, an apathy protest; interesting concept, but could anyone be arsed turning up?


    The 'there is no alternative' stuff is bullshít; entire solution rests with money creation at the EU level, used with almost entirely non-inflationary policies, like debt writedowns/relief, and a job guarantee (temporary public jobs, such as on large infrastructure projects).

    No deficits need closing (it in fact, closes itself as the economy recovers), and with money creation, the public debt is entirely manageable (you even have control over the interest paid); the solution is there, but political inertia within the EU (some of it probably deliberate) is preventing it from happening.


    Since when was austerity a valid 'alternative' anyway? It is directly destroying our economy (and leads to a lot of people dying, suffering, having their health damaged, and is destroying many peoples futures), so it's the most stupid possible policy choice imaginable, yet some people (almost universally those that won't actually suffer from it) are brainwashed into thinking its a good idea.


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    #34
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Seaneh wrote: »

    Actually, no, it's not always.


    You can make gradual adjustments to expenditure in areas other than frontline services. You can grow the economy, you can do a million things before you start cutting doctors, teachers, therapists, cutting education and welfare spending.

    Austerity should be a last resort, not a first port of call.

    This and the last government and those in the EU have it arse backwards, and every respected economist in the world has said as much.

    Either you cut people or their salaries. 85% of the costs in the public sector are salaries. You decide.


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    #35
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Seaneh wrote: »
    Actually, no, it's not always.


    You can make gradual adjustments to expenditure in areas other than frontline services. You can grow the economy, you can do a million things before you start cutting doctors, teachers, therapists, cutting education and welfare spending.

    Austerity should be a last resort, not a first port of call.

    This and the last government and those in the EU have it arse backwards, and every respected economist in the world has said as much.

    And while you are making these gradual cuts, where does the money come from to fund the running of the country? No market would have lent to us with the deficit we had, we were broke. And we were broke WITHOUT the bank bailout.

    Oh but wait...we could burn the bondholders....the same people we then expect to lend to us while we make gradual cuts...yeah I'm sure we could get money no problem from the same crowd we just shat on.


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    #36
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    professore wrote: »
    Either you cut people or their salaries. 85% of the costs in the public sector are salaries. You decide.
    You don't have to cut anything; the EU needs to utilize money creation to get us out of the crisis.

    If all people talk about, is what taxes to raise or what public expenditure to cut, then it's just like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic; you're still fúcked no matter what way you rearrange things.

    The only solution that doesn't involve further destroying the economy, is using money creation to fund programs that can actually help us recover.
    Anyone wrote: »
    And while you are making these gradual cuts, where does the money come from to fund the running of the country? No market would have lent to us with the deficit we had, we were broke. And we were broke WITHOUT the bank bailout.

    Oh but wait...we could burn the bondholders....the same people we then expect to lend to us while we make gradual cuts...yeah I'm sure we could get money no problem from the same crowd we just shat on.
    Countries that are in control of their currency (which we aren't but the EU as a whole is, so the EU needs to act), can not go broke; it is impossible unless done voluntarily, because new money can always be created.


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    #37
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    professore wrote: »
    Either you cut people or their salaries. 85% of the costs in the public sector are salaries. You decide.

    The public sector is too big, but not on the front line,the fact is that the health service and the welfare services are under staffed where it matters and over staffed where it doesn't. The HSE for example has a massive waste of time and money in middle management and admin levels, cut them first, cut salaries at the higher end first. front line staff, the most needed staff in the system, should be the last to be effected.

    We have more more admin and management employees per doctor or nurse than any health system in the world. You want public sector savings, get rid of the thousands of people working in the HSE with no job description.

    Out politicians are the highest paid in the developed world, that's retarded. Cut their pay. We have more parlimentry reps per capita than anywhere else in europe, cut the Dail to 90, at most, abolish the Seanad, they are simple and instant savings we could make.

    We have a **** load of pointlessly high public bodies and semi states who do nothing and coast hundreds of millions. scap them.


    There are countless places we can cut spending before we focus on the frontline services and infrastructural investments that are needed.


    Top down cuts are far more effective than bottom up and hurt the economy and the population a lot less.


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    #38
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Anyone wrote: »
    And while you are making these gradual cuts, where does the money come from to fund the running of the country? No market would have lent to us with the deficit we had, we were broke.

    Yes they would, don't be absurd. 20billion is nothing. We could have easily borrowed to cover while expanding the economy. The markets didn't and dont give a **** about our budget deficit, they were perfectly willing and happy to lend to us to cover that.

    They ran away because of the private debt the government willing incurred. They know we can never afford to repay it.


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    #39
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Seaneh wrote: »
    The public sector is too big, but not on the front line,the fact is that the health service and the welfare services are under staffed where it matters and over staffed where it doesn't. The HSE for example has a massive waste of time and money in middle management and admin levels, cut them first, cut salaries at the higher end first. front line staff, the most needed staff in the system, should be the last to be effected.

    We have more more admin and management employees per doctor or nurse than any health system in the world. You want public sector savings, get rid of the thousands of people working in the HSE with no job description.

    Out politicians are the highest paid in the developed world, that's retarded. Cut their pay. We have more parlimentry reps per capita than anywhere else in europe, cut the Dail to 90, at most, abolish the Seanad, they are simple and instant savings we could make.

    We have a **** load of pointlessly high public bodies and semi states who do nothing and coast hundreds of millions. scap them.


    There are countless places we can cut spending before we focus on the frontline services and infrastructural investments that are needed.


    Top down cuts are far more effective than bottom up and hurt the economy and the population a lot less.
    By all means redistribute spending more efficiently in the public sector, but if you cut spending overall, that is less money going into the private economy (money needed to fund recovery) and even more damage being done to the entire economy.


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    #40
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,478 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Seaneh wrote: »
    Yes they would, don't be absurd. 20billion is nothing. We could have easily borrowed to cover while expanding the economy. The markets didn't and dont give a **** about our budget deficit, they were perfectly willing and happy to lend to us to cover that.

    They ran away because of the private debt the government willing incurred. They know we can never afford to repay it.

    20 billion isn't nothing..for 20 billion to be made up in revenue our revenue would need to grow by 66%, that is not nothing.


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    #41
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    AdamD wrote: »
    20 billion isn't nothing..for 20 billion to be made up in revenue our revenue would need to grow by 66%, that is not nothing.

    Doesn't change the fact that the markets would have been more than happy to loan it to us as a rate we could afford. And given us a lot more time to fix the problem.


    Instead we are pawning everything we have to pay back a loan shark.


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    #42
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    Who is up for starting an anti anti austerity protesters protest. These muppets are trying to destroy our country. I for one like that our hospitals and schools are still open, I appreciate that we still have guards doing their job. If these protesters get their way we are fukced. They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option, it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

    This is literally the kind of attitude that's destroying the country and making us the bankers' b!tch. :(


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    #43
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Seaneh wrote: »
    Doesn't change the fact that the markets would have been more than happy to loan it to us as a rate we could afford. And given us a lot more time to fix the problem.


    Instead we are pawning everything we have to pay back a loan shark.

    The reason we had to get money from the Troika is because we couldnt afford the rates......

    By the way, if markets dont care about a countries deficit, why is Greek government debt being traded at 35% its value?


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    #44
    ASVM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭ASVM


    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    Who is up for starting an anti anti austerity protesters protest. These muppets are trying to destroy our country. I for one like that our hospitals and schools are still open, I appreciate that we still have guards doing their job. If these protesters get their way we are fukced. They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option, it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

    A lot of our country is already destroyed .Look at all the businesses that have gone to the wall . Look at all the families and individuals who have had to emigrate.

    We talk about austerity working. Well look at one example, local government putting up rates and driving even more businesses to the wall.How are these kind of austere measures working? This is just one example. Some communities have very little left. Austerity is devastating people.


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    #45
    RossyG
    Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭RossyG


    Ireland is a consumer society. Austerity cuts destroy consumer confidence. You spend your way out of a recession.

    Simple economics that seem to be ignored by those in charge.


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    #46
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    RossyG wrote: »
    Ireland is a consumer society. Austerity cuts destroy consumer confidence. You spend your way out of a recession.

    Simple economics that seem to be ignored by those in charge.

    Heres some simple economics that people seem to ignore on here:

    Income-Expenditure=Surplus/Deficit.


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    #47
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Anyone wrote: »
    The reason we had to get money from the Troika is because we couldnt afford the rates......

    And we couldn't afford to pay the market rates because the market doesn't believe we can repay the private debt of private companies, not because of the 20billion budget deficit. That is a fact.
    Anyone wrote: »
    By the way, if markets dont care about a countries deficit, why is Greek government debt being traded at 35% its value?

    Because the operating deficit of the greek government is a lot higher than 20billion. Their economy is in a much worse state than ours and, in general, it is a totally different situation.


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    #48
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Seaneh wrote: »
    And we couldn't afford to pay the market rates because the market doesn't believe we can repay the private debt of private companies, not because of the 20billion budget deficit. That is a fact.



    Because the operating deficit of the greek government is a lot higher than 20billion. Their economy is in a much euors state than ours and, in general, it is a totally different situation.

    So the markets do actually pay attention to deficits is what you are saying?


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    #49
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Anyone wrote: »
    So the markets do actually pay attention to deficits is what you are saying?

    When did I say they don't?


    I said 20billion is nothing.


    Greece is not Ireland, you can't compare our problems to theirs, the only thing in common is the currency and the timing.


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    #50
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Seaneh wrote: »
    The markets didn't and dont give a **** about our budget deficit, they were perfectly willing and happy to lend to us to cover that.
    Seaneh wrote: »
    When did I say they don't?


    I said 20billion is nothing.


    Greece is not Ireland, you can't compare our problems to theirs, the only thing in common is the currency and the timing.

    You said it earlier in the thread.


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    #51
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Anyone wrote: »
    You said it earlier in the thread.

    No, I said they don't give a **** about OUR budget deficit, that isn't the reason they aren't lending to us at a rate we can afford.


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    #52
    DarkDusk
    Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭DarkDusk


    AdamD wrote: »
    20 billion isn't nothing..for 20 billion to be made up in revenue our revenue would need to grow by 66%, that is not nothing.

    I've been doing a few calculations and they do not add up to this 66% required revenue growth. What figure are you using for the current revenue?

    Where has the OP gone? Is he hiding?


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    #53
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Seaneh wrote: »
    No, I said they don't give a **** about OUR budget deficit, that isn't the reason they aren't lending to us at a rate we can afford.


    But wait....they are lending to us.....we have successfully borrowed this year from the markets twice at very affordable rates. While they wouldnt give us those rates a few years ago.....why have things changed?


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    #54
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Anyone wrote: »
    But wait....they are lending to us.....we have successfully borrowed this year from the markets twice at very affordable rates. While they wouldnt give us those rates a few years ago.....why have things changed?

    Are you actually trying to claim that if we hadn't incurred the bank debt that the markets still wouldn't have lent to us?

    Because that goes against everything every financial institution, economist and their dog has told us.


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    #55
    DarkDusk
    Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭DarkDusk


    Just to let you know that the US has a $1 trillion deficit. Imagine if they were in our situation and had no currency to print!

    It would take only a quarter of what the US prints every month to cover our annual deficit.


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    #56
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    DarkDusk wrote: »
    Just to let you know that the US has a $1 trillion deficit. Imagine if they were in our situation and had no currency to print!

    It would take only a quarter of what the US prints every month to cover our annual deficit.

    1.3 trillion actually, and 14trillion of debt.


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    #57
    Anyone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Seaneh wrote: »
    Are you actually trying to claim that if we hadn't incurred the bank debt that the markets still wouldn't have lent to us?

    Because that goes against everything every financial institution, economist and their dog has told us.

    Stop trying to change the subject....you said markets dont give a shít about deficits, I disagreed. The bank debt is still there, yet markets are lending to us, and our debt is trading well. Why is this happening? Is it by any chance due to the fact that we are getting a grip on our deficit?


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    #58
    Tiddlypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    Seaneh wrote: »
    There are other options, which would be a lot better for the nation in the long run.
    Seaneh wrote: »
    Doesn't change the fact that the markets would have been more than happy to loan it to us as a rate we could afford. And given us a lot more time to fix the problem.


    Instead we are pawning everything we have to pay back a loan shark.

    What are our other options? Where do we get the money?

    Whatever about mistakes that have been made in the past (and there have been many). What are our choices now. How do we fix this?

    I don't like austerity, nobody does, but I don't see any other option. We cannot afford to keep going if don't find a way to pull more money in or to reduce our spend.

    We aren't likely to change Europe's mind on how to handle this and convince them to print more money than they think they need too. Even if they did it would just devalue our currency to a point where it would severely effect our imports/exports to countries outside the Euro.


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    #59
    DarkDusk
    Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭DarkDusk


    Seaneh wrote: »
    1.3 trillion actually, and 14trillion of debt.

    16 trillion!

    So, let's compare Euro countries and the US. What's missing here is central bank intervention by the ECB. Intervention, imo, will have to happen when the situation gets worse, which it will.

    Sorry for changing the topic, but I don't think that enough people are worrying about WW3...


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    #60
    scopper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭scopper


    In Iceland they simply jailed the bankers, let the bad banks fail, and let things go back to normal. No hospitals shutting down all over the place.

    Do you honestly think austerity is there to keep things going? Get real. It's just a good old fashioned government-business pact to transfer the pain to the middle-classes.

    I don't mind counter-protests, but this one is just silly.


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    #61
    DarkDusk
    Registered Users Posts: 914 ✭✭✭DarkDusk


    Tiddlypeeps wrote: »
    Even if they did it would just devalue our currency to a point where it would severely effect our imports/exports to countries outside the Euro.

    The world is in a currency war, and the Euro is not participating! Dollars, Yen, Yuan are all being devalued by their central banks - it's a race to the bottom.

    Re Scooper: Yes, Iceland did the right thing - look at them now! If Greece defaults on their debt, which they will eventually have to do, Spain, Portugal and us will follow them.

    Interesting interview: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/icelandic-economy-minister-explains-reaction-to-finance-crisis-a-869351.html


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