Protest against "anti austerity protesters".

Scanlas The 2nd

Who is up for starting an anti anti austerity protesters protest. These muppets are trying to destroy our country. I for one like that our hospitals and schools are still open, I appreciate that we still have guards doing their job. If these protesters get their way we are fukced. They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option, it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

LostBoy101

Just ignore them, simples.

Where To

I'm already protesting against them, I'm flat out ignoring them.

King of Kings

protest again me all you wish. I couldn't give a hoot.

you don't seem to care that the poorest in society are being robbed to pay for a bloated government spend.

we need cutbacks and to belance the books but not in the areas they have been delivered.

for example the loss of the PRSI credit will shaft lower paid people a lot more.

Most wealthy people are directors , who aren't entitled to that credit so they never had that credit anyway so in fact that measure really just shafts the normal paye guy.
No director of a company is seeing any loss there.

I have more examples but I'll leave it at that.

super_furry

Seems like a really awful idea that would only be supported by Blueshirts.

DarkDusk

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

Says who? Enda Kenny? Michael Noonan? Merkel?!

Why are we taking Austerity? Oh, wait, of course! We need to pay back all the guys who gave us money! BANKERS! Austerity has never and never will work - have a look at Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal - has it worked for them?

Do you think poverty is good in the long term? That's hilarious. Don't believe every drop of BS that comes out of the media. The world economy is slowing down, and will continue to slow down - that's the facts.

The Irish people have been brainwashed into thinking that austerity is a good thing! I'm very worried...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1001/joseph-stiglitz-austerity.html

http://margotbworldnews.com/News/Oct/Oct1/Austerity.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/04/austerity-policy-eurozone-crisis

Celly Smunt

Eirigi here to hijack your protest.

Scanlas The 2nd

DarkDusk wrote: »

Says who? Enda Kenny? Michael Noonan? Merkel?!

Why are we taking Austerity? Oh, wait, of course! We need to pay back all the guys who gave us money! BANKERS! Austerity has never and never will work - have a look at Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal - has it worked for them?

Do you think poverty is good in the long term? That's hilarious. Don't believe every drop of BS that comes out of the media. The world economy is slowing down, and will continue to slow down - that's the facts.

The Irish people have been brainwashed into thinking that austerity is a good thing! I'm very worried...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1001/joseph-stiglitz-austerity.html

http://margotbworldnews.com/News/Oct/Oct1/Austerity.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/04/austerity-policy-eurozone-crisis

We have a fiscal deficit, simple, it needs to be closed.

AnonoBoy

I'm confused.

What would the placards read?

"No austerity protests here please."
"No Austerity Protests please, we're Irish."
"No protesting about stuff thanks."

Can't see that taking off.

DarkDusk

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

We have a fiscal deficit, simple, it needs to be closed.

And what about the debt?

More links:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/961461-does-austerity-work

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/what-part-of-austerity-isnt-working-dont-people-get-20120617

greendom

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Who is up for starting an anti anti austerity protesters protest. These muppets are trying to destroy our country. I for one like that our hospitals and schools are still open, I appreciate that we still have guards doing their job. If these protesters get their way we are fukced. They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option, it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

Yes let's support the IMF, EU, ECB Fine Gael, Labour, as they destroy the country. Next year the Irish government will hand over 5 billion to pay for debts on banks that no longer exist. Absolute madness - just think how the country could benefit from a wise investment of this sort of money.

pconn062

pmcmahon wrote: »

Eirigi here to hijack your protest.

This is the biggest problem with protests in this country. Even if you tried to organise a civil, peaceful protest with a serious objective all these morons and extremist groups would show up to try and push their own agenda. This would then give RTE the chance to report about "far right groups" and "violent clashes", thus making the whole thing pointless.

DarkDusk

Scanlass, do you work for the IMF, or maybe the ECB?

tayto lover

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

We have a fiscal deficit, simple, it needs to be closed.

Tackle the people who caused it then. Politicians, Bankers, Speculators, Accountants, Planners etc.
Many of us lived within our means, paying for our childrens education without grants, not taking holidays, not taking on more debt by buying big cars, staying in ordinary homes and refusing the bankers attempts to try and get us to take out bigger loans etc.

Ghandee

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I'm confused.

What would the placards read?

"No austerity protests here please."
"No Austerity Protests please, we're Irish."
"No protesting about stuff thanks."

Can't see that taking off.

Seaneh

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option

There are other options, which would be a lot better for the nation in the long run.

tayto lover

Ghandee wrote: »

"We are not the Greeks"

"We have no Balls"

Ghandee

OP if you feel the need to protest, protest.

Don't sit around waiting on others to do it for you, organise a march.

Celly Smunt

Seaneh wrote: »

There are other options, which would be a lot better for the nation in the long run.

to be honest we're so far down the road of austerity that it would be madness to stop now.

Seaneh

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

We have a fiscal deficit, simple, it needs to be closed.

And without the retarded debt of private companies we could comfortably borrow from the international markets to cover the deficit and manage reducing it in a much better way over a few years, rather than the idiocy we are at right now.

Seaneh

Just to add to all this.

The way we are trying to "fix" the budget deficit is from the bottom up, and that is the wrong way to do it.

The only way that works is to go from the top down and streamline the system that way.
When the semi-states and quangos are sorted out, over paying senior officials, sorting out the excess in higher and middle management positions and so forth, then you can start streamlining front line services.

ASVM

pconn062 wrote: »

This is the biggest problem with protests in this country. Even if you tried to organise a civil, peaceful protest with a serious objective all these morons and extremist groups would show up to try and push their own agenda. This would then give RTE the chance to report about "far right groups" and "violent clashes", thus making the whole thing pointless.

Yeah, that's the thing, I would be in favour of an anti austerity protest and a huge reform of public services in this country but maybe it would be hijacked by extreme groups.(or maybe i'd be labelled as an extremist for wanting reform in the public sector)

However I think there are a lot of intelligent middle ground people out there and this kind of group could influence government policy.I might be wrong but a lot of middle ground people are being affected by this budget ( coping classes I think is the term the media uses)

Chinasea

tayto lover wrote: »

Many of us lived within our means, paying for our childrens education without grants, not taking holidays, not taking on more debt by buying big cars, staying in ordinary homes and refusing the bankers attempts to try and get us to take out bigger loans etc.

True, but we shouldn't have to be rewarded for being regular, sensible folk.

Unfortunately many of the 'sensisble' voted the same shower back in, and in and in again, and I dare say if they were to run for election tomorrow they would WIN:eek:

tayto lover

Chinasea wrote: »

True, but we shouldn't have to be rewarded for being regular, sensible folk.

Unfortunately many of the 'sensisble' voted the same shower back in, and in and in again, and I dare say if they were to run for election tomorrow they would WIN:eek:

Correct. I actually listened to the lies Fine Gael spun about doing away with cronyism and making politics honest. Bigger fool me.

Wish people would get it into their heads that austerity and bank debt are two completely different issues. You can have your opinion on the bank debt but surely nobody in their right mind thinks the country can continue with a deficit of ~15 billion?

ASVM

AdamD wrote: »

Wish people would get it into their heads that austerity and bank debt are two completely different issues. You can have your opinion on the bank debt but surely nobody in their right mind thinks the country can continue with a deficit of ~15 billion?

Ok let's go on your line of thinking for a moment. Do you think the government are getting, any, all, or none of it right at the moment?

Seaneh

AdamD wrote: »

Wish people would get it into their heads that austerity and bank debt are two completely different issues. You can have your opinion on the bank debt but surely nobody in their right mind thinks the country can continue with a deficit of ~15 billion?

Well, actually, no, they aren't two different issues.

The simple fact is that without the bank debt we would be in a position to borrow from the markets at a competitive rate, which we can afford, and manage the deficit a lot better, making the needed adjustments and building the economy, no austerity needed.

Austerity shrinks the economy, expounding the problem and creating the need for even more austerity.

Austerity NEVER works. No economy in recorded history has ever recovered thanks to austerity policies. They have all gotten worse.

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

Well, actually, no, they aren't two different issues.

The simple fact is that without the bank debt we would be in a position to borrow from the markets at a competitive rate, which we can afford, and manage the deficit a lot better, making the needed adjustments and building the economy, no austerity needed.

Austerity shrinks the economy, expounding the problem and creating the need for even more austerity.

Austerity NEVER works. No economy in recorded history has ever recovered thanks to austerity policies. They have all gotten worse.

It would still be needed...when the deficits as large as it is the government can't afford to borrow more money to stimulate the economy and if it did you'd need a miracle to boost our revenue by enough to balance the budget.

By the way; 'making the needed adjustments' is austerity.

ASVM

AdamD wrote: »

It would still be needed...when the deficits as large as it is the government can't afford to borrow more money to stimulate the economy and if it did you'd need a miracle to boost our revenue by enough to balance the budget.

By the way; 'making the needed adjustments' is austerity.

'Making the needed adjustments' could be public sector reform .

Seaneh

AdamD wrote: »

By the way; 'making the needed adjustments' is austerity.

Actually, no, it's not always.


You can make gradual adjustments to expenditure in areas other than frontline services. You can grow the economy, you can do a million things before you start cutting doctors, teachers, therapists, cutting education and welfare spending.

Austerity should be a last resort, not a first port of call.

This and the last government and those in the EU have it arse backwards, and every respected economist in the world has said as much.

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

Actually, no, it's not always.


You can make gradual adjustments to expenditure in areas other than frontline services. You can grow the economy, you can do a million things before you start cutting doctors, teachers, therapists, cutting education and welfare spending.

Austerity should be a last resort, not a first port of call.

This and the last government and those in the EU have it arse backwards, and every respected economist in the world has said as much.

None of those things are going to come close to getting rid of a 20.2 billion euro deficit. Gradual adjustments requires more borrowing which will just increase interest payments and increase our already ridiculous debt levels.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Who is up for starting an anti anti austerity protesters protest. These muppets are trying to destroy our country. I for one like that our hospitals and schools are still open, I appreciate that we still have guards doing their job. If these protesters get their way we are fukced. They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option, it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

You never answered my question from the last thread: which bank are you running?

KyussBishop

Hmm, an apathy protest; interesting concept, but could anyone be arsed turning up?


The 'there is no alternative' stuff is bullshít; entire solution rests with money creation at the EU level, used with almost entirely non-inflationary policies, like debt writedowns/relief, and a job guarantee (temporary public jobs, such as on large infrastructure projects).

No deficits need closing (it in fact, closes itself as the economy recovers), and with money creation, the public debt is entirely manageable (you even have control over the interest paid); the solution is there, but political inertia within the EU (some of it probably deliberate) is preventing it from happening.


Since when was austerity a valid 'alternative' anyway? It is directly destroying our economy (and leads to a lot of people dying, suffering, having their health damaged, and is destroying many peoples futures), so it's the most stupid possible policy choice imaginable, yet some people (almost universally those that won't actually suffer from it) are brainwashed into thinking its a good idea.

professore

Seaneh wrote: »

Actually, no, it's not always.


You can make gradual adjustments to expenditure in areas other than frontline services. You can grow the economy, you can do a million things before you start cutting doctors, teachers, therapists, cutting education and welfare spending.

Austerity should be a last resort, not a first port of call.

This and the last government and those in the EU have it arse backwards, and every respected economist in the world has said as much.

Either you cut people or their salaries. 85% of the costs in the public sector are salaries. You decide.

Anyone

Seaneh wrote: »

Actually, no, it's not always.


You can make gradual adjustments to expenditure in areas other than frontline services. You can grow the economy, you can do a million things before you start cutting doctors, teachers, therapists, cutting education and welfare spending.

Austerity should be a last resort, not a first port of call.

This and the last government and those in the EU have it arse backwards, and every respected economist in the world has said as much.

And while you are making these gradual cuts, where does the money come from to fund the running of the country? No market would have lent to us with the deficit we had, we were broke. And we were broke WITHOUT the bank bailout.

Oh but wait...we could burn the bondholders....the same people we then expect to lend to us while we make gradual cuts...yeah I'm sure we could get money no problem from the same crowd we just shat on.

KyussBishop

professore wrote: »

Either you cut people or their salaries. 85% of the costs in the public sector are salaries. You decide.

You don't have to cut anything; the EU needs to utilize money creation to get us out of the crisis.

If all people talk about, is what taxes to raise or what public expenditure to cut, then it's just like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic; you're still fúcked no matter what way you rearrange things.

The only solution that doesn't involve further destroying the economy, is using money creation to fund programs that can actually help us recover.

Anyone wrote: »

And while you are making these gradual cuts, where does the money come from to fund the running of the country? No market would have lent to us with the deficit we had, we were broke. And we were broke WITHOUT the bank bailout.

Oh but wait...we could burn the bondholders....the same people we then expect to lend to us while we make gradual cuts...yeah I'm sure we could get money no problem from the same crowd we just shat on.

Countries that are in control of their currency (which we aren't but the EU as a whole is, so the EU needs to act), can not go broke; it is impossible unless done voluntarily, because new money can always be created.

Seaneh

professore wrote: »

Either you cut people or their salaries. 85% of the costs in the public sector are salaries. You decide.

The public sector is too big, but not on the front line,the fact is that the health service and the welfare services are under staffed where it matters and over staffed where it doesn't. The HSE for example has a massive waste of time and money in middle management and admin levels, cut them first, cut salaries at the higher end first. front line staff, the most needed staff in the system, should be the last to be effected.

We have more more admin and management employees per doctor or nurse than any health system in the world. You want public sector savings, get rid of the thousands of people working in the HSE with no job description.

Out politicians are the highest paid in the developed world, that's retarded. Cut their pay. We have more parlimentry reps per capita than anywhere else in europe, cut the Dail to 90, at most, abolish the Seanad, they are simple and instant savings we could make.

We have a **** load of pointlessly high public bodies and semi states who do nothing and coast hundreds of millions. scap them.


There are countless places we can cut spending before we focus on the frontline services and infrastructural investments that are needed.


Top down cuts are far more effective than bottom up and hurt the economy and the population a lot less.

Seaneh

Anyone wrote: »

And while you are making these gradual cuts, where does the money come from to fund the running of the country? No market would have lent to us with the deficit we had, we were broke.

Yes they would, don't be absurd. 20billion is nothing. We could have easily borrowed to cover while expanding the economy. The markets didn't and dont give a **** about our budget deficit, they were perfectly willing and happy to lend to us to cover that.

They ran away because of the private debt the government willing incurred. They know we can never afford to repay it.

KyussBishop

Seaneh wrote: »

The public sector is too big, but not on the front line,the fact is that the health service and the welfare services are under staffed where it matters and over staffed where it doesn't. The HSE for example has a massive waste of time and money in middle management and admin levels, cut them first, cut salaries at the higher end first. front line staff, the most needed staff in the system, should be the last to be effected.

We have more more admin and management employees per doctor or nurse than any health system in the world. You want public sector savings, get rid of the thousands of people working in the HSE with no job description.

Out politicians are the highest paid in the developed world, that's retarded. Cut their pay. We have more parlimentry reps per capita than anywhere else in europe, cut the Dail to 90, at most, abolish the Seanad, they are simple and instant savings we could make.

We have a **** load of pointlessly high public bodies and semi states who do nothing and coast hundreds of millions. scap them.


There are countless places we can cut spending before we focus on the frontline services and infrastructural investments that are needed.


Top down cuts are far more effective than bottom up and hurt the economy and the population a lot less.

By all means redistribute spending more efficiently in the public sector, but if you cut spending overall, that is less money going into the private economy (money needed to fund recovery) and even more damage being done to the entire economy.

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

Yes they would, don't be absurd. 20billion is nothing. We could have easily borrowed to cover while expanding the economy. The markets didn't and dont give a **** about our budget deficit, they were perfectly willing and happy to lend to us to cover that.

They ran away because of the private debt the government willing incurred. They know we can never afford to repay it.

20 billion isn't nothing..for 20 billion to be made up in revenue our revenue would need to grow by 66%, that is not nothing.

Seaneh

AdamD wrote: »

20 billion isn't nothing..for 20 billion to be made up in revenue our revenue would need to grow by 66%, that is not nothing.

Doesn't change the fact that the markets would have been more than happy to loan it to us as a rate we could afford. And given us a lot more time to fix the problem.


Instead we are pawning everything we have to pay back a loan shark.

hatrickpatrick

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Who is up for starting an anti anti austerity protesters protest. These muppets are trying to destroy our country. I for one like that our hospitals and schools are still open, I appreciate that we still have guards doing their job. If these protesters get their way we are fukced. They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option, it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

This is literally the kind of attitude that's destroying the country and making us the bankers' b!tch.

Anyone

Seaneh wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that the markets would have been more than happy to loan it to us as a rate we could afford. And given us a lot more time to fix the problem.


Instead we are pawning everything we have to pay back a loan shark.

The reason we had to get money from the Troika is because we couldnt afford the rates......

By the way, if markets dont care about a countries deficit, why is Greek government debt being traded at 35% its value?

ASVM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Who is up for starting an anti anti austerity protesters protest. These muppets are trying to destroy our country. I for one like that our hospitals and schools are still open, I appreciate that we still have guards doing their job. If these protesters get their way we are fukced. They p1ss and moan about austerity when there is no other option, it has to be done for the good of our nation long term.

A lot of our country is already destroyed .Look at all the businesses that have gone to the wall . Look at all the families and individuals who have had to emigrate.

We talk about austerity working. Well look at one example, local government putting up rates and driving even more businesses to the wall.How are these kind of austere measures working? This is just one example. Some communities have very little left. Austerity is devastating people.

RossyG

Ireland is a consumer society. Austerity cuts destroy consumer confidence. You spend your way out of a recession.

Simple economics that seem to be ignored by those in charge.

Anyone

RossyG wrote: »

Ireland is a consumer society. Austerity cuts destroy consumer confidence. You spend your way out of a recession.

Simple economics that seem to be ignored by those in charge.

Heres some simple economics that people seem to ignore on here:

Income-Expenditure=Surplus/Deficit.

Seaneh

Anyone wrote: »

The reason we had to get money from the Troika is because we couldnt afford the rates......

And we couldn't afford to pay the market rates because the market doesn't believe we can repay the private debt of private companies, not because of the 20billion budget deficit. That is a fact.

Anyone wrote: »

By the way, if markets dont care about a countries deficit, why is Greek government debt being traded at 35% its value?

Because the operating deficit of the greek government is a lot higher than 20billion. Their economy is in a much worse state than ours and, in general, it is a totally different situation.

Anyone

Seaneh wrote: »

And we couldn't afford to pay the market rates because the market doesn't believe we can repay the private debt of private companies, not because of the 20billion budget deficit. That is a fact.



Because the operating deficit of the greek government is a lot higher than 20billion. Their economy is in a much euors state than ours and, in general, it is a totally different situation.

So the markets do actually pay attention to deficits is what you are saying?

Seaneh

Anyone wrote: »

So the markets do actually pay attention to deficits is what you are saying?

When did I say they don't?


I said 20billion is nothing.


Greece is not Ireland, you can't compare our problems to theirs, the only thing in common is the currency and the timing.

Anyone

Seaneh wrote: »

The markets didn't and dont give a **** about our budget deficit, they were perfectly willing and happy to lend to us to cover that.

Seaneh wrote: »

When did I say they don't?


I said 20billion is nothing.


Greece is not Ireland, you can't compare our problems to theirs, the only thing in common is the currency and the timing.

You said it earlier in the thread.

Seaneh

Anyone wrote: »

You said it earlier in the thread.

No, I said they don't give a **** about OUR budget deficit, that isn't the reason they aren't lending to us at a rate we can afford.