Irish Euro Gold and Silver Commemorative coins

tricky D

Yup. Page 30

DMcL1971

I certainly wouldn't consider these as any kind of an investment, as I can't imagine them going up in value. If anything I can see them going down to their bullion value eventually.

So, 99 dollars for the first coin, that's about 74 Euro per ounce.
79 dollars for each of the other coins, that's about 59 Euro per ounce.
The John Philip Holland coin contains 0.841 ounces of silver for 44 Euro. That's 52.32 Euro per ounce.

So the official coins are better value and are far more likely to hold, or go up, in value as has been proven over the last decade. If these new coins are not successful they could fall to their bullion value which would currently be 14.92 Euro.

If you are a collector of all things related to the 1916 rising then you might buy these for your collection. But as far as numismatic or bullion value these are a real loss, just like the stuff the 'Dublin Mint Office' produces.

Not to mention the fact that the this is a new company with no pedigree. Will they still be in business in 2016 when they are supposed to release the last of these coins. I hope for their sake that they haven't bought all 20,000 of their first coin yet. The central bank can't even sell that many.

A bit of maths for anyone interested.
The Irish commemorative silver coins weigh 28.28g each.
To convert grammes to troy ounces you multiply by 0.0321507466.
However the silver content of the coins are 92.5%.
Therefore the silver content is 28.28 x 0.0321507466 x 0.925 = 0.841Toz

DMcL1971

The company seems to be run by Fintan Walsh from Finglas. He is pictured on the facebook page delivering the first coin to a customer. If you google him, it says that he is The Lord Mayor of Finglas. I don't know if that makes me more or less confident.

coylemj

The UK situation doesn't inspire confidence in commemorative coins as an investment ....

Struck gold? How coins have fallen

£500 Olympic silver coin (2012) – Royal Mint sold for £3,000, dealer pays £1,400

£5 royal wedding silver coin (2011) – Royal Mint sold for £82.50, dealer pays £75

Winston Churchill crown (1965) – Royal Mint sold for around £1, dealer pays 20p

£5 Queen Mother’s 90th birthday cupronickel coin (1990) – Royal Mint sold for £9.95, dealer pays £3

£5 Diana, Princess of Wales 1999 memorial gold coin – Royal Mint sold for £1,745, dealer pays £1,000


Bank sold us £5 coins that aren’t worth a penny

Not2Good

Does anybody know when the Silver Horse sold out at the central bank? I tried to check the threads before posting in case it was answered already and saw nada.

Got a few before they sold out and just went back to get one or two more but all gone. Does that mean that they will go up in value or am I being too optimistic?

Thanks

Blade

Not2Good wrote: »

Does anybody know when the Silver Horse sold out at the central bank? I tried to check the threads before posting in case it was answered already and saw nada.

Got a few before they sold out and just went back to get one or two more but all gone. Does that mean that they will go up in value or am I being too optimistic?

Thanks

Lots of coins have sold out at the CB but many have not gone up in value because of it. With a lot of them you'd be luck to get your money back. As the silver horse was available for a long time after release I wouldn't expect it to go up in value any time soon. It's only the ones that sold out quickly that have a chance of increasing in value, the likes of the GAA, Celtic Cross, Joyce, Mestrovic, Collins etc.

Not2Good

Blade wrote: »

Lots of coins have sold out at the CB but many have not gone up in value because of it. With
a lot of them you'd be luck to get your money back. As the silver horse was available for a long time after release I wouldn't expect it to go up in value any time soon. It's only the ones that sold out quickly that have a chance of increasing in value, the likes of the GAA, Celtic Cross, Joyce, Mestrovic, Collins etc.

Thanks for that reply. In for the long haul so. Cheers

Blade

DMcL1971 wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't consider these as any kind of an investment, as I can't imagine them going up in value. If anything I can see them going down to their bullion value eventually.

He got on the radio saying that because they're bullion they can only increase in value, emm not when you're paying 4 or 5 times the bullion value to begin with! Only 20,000 pieces of each "coin", yeah good luck with that! And he's still describing them as coins and mentioning competing with the Central Bank. Listen here from 23 mins in:
www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A10305769%3A56%3A26%2D07%2D2014%3A

DMcL1971

On the one hand, I think fair play to the guy, he seems genuine, he has started his own business and I hope it is a success for him. It could be a nice little business if he sells to the tourist market. What these are is overpriced, high quality Irish souvenirs and there is certainly a genuine tourist market for that. Just go into any one of a dozen jewellery shops in Dublin and look at all the Claddagh rings and Tara brooches etc.

What I don't like is the implication that this is a good investment which can only go up in value. If you want to invest in silver, then by all means go and buy as much bullion as you like. If you are interested in numismatics then buy the central bank coins. But I can't ever see these medals going up in value.

MasterSun

Not2Good wrote: »

Does anybody know when the Silver Horse sold out at the central bank? I tried to check the threads before posting in case it was answered already and saw nada.

Sometime round May this year

Not2Good

Cheers, thanks for that.

Blade

DMcL1971 wrote: »

On the one hand, I think fair play to the guy, he seems genuine, he has started his own business and I hope it is a success for him.

I get the impression that he came into this with no numismatic experience whatsoever, I certainly don't know him as a dealer or from numismatic circles in Dublin. The very fact that he still thinks they are coins and comparing his business model to that of the Central Bank is worrying from a business point of view. I can't remember exactly what he said on the radio but when he was wished well about his new business he replied with something along the lines of counting on it otherwise he was going to be in serious financial trouble. Think he just implied that.

I really think he just came up with this one day out of nowhere and dived in without experience and without discussing it with anyone more knowledgeable. The CB sometimes struggle to sell 10,000 pieces of their official coins and they've a much bigger market and existing customer base and sell for much cheaper prices. His idea is nothing new like he probably thinks it is, I know of another guy who produced 1916-2016 medals (might have shown them to you here), quite nice ones too but he can't seem to shift them. I was offered them very cheap, way below his retail price and we're not even at 2016 yet. The likes of the Dublin "mint" too have a much bigger reach with their controversial marketing tactics. I just think this guy is way out of his depth and hope for his sake he didn't invest too much of his personal money in it.

Judgement Day

The eBay page has 1 positive feedback tonight for 8 apparently sold. I've only just noticed that eBay in their infinite wisdom have now made it impossible to check the background feedback of those leaving feedback. Another reason why I'm glad that I rarely use their site these days.

Blade

Judgement Day wrote: »

The eBay page has 1 positive feedback tonight for 8 apparently sold. I've only just noticed that eBay in their infinite wisdom have now made it impossible to check the background feedback of those leaving feedback. Another reason why I'm glad that I rarely use their site these days.

The rush in sales is always at the start of a new "coin" release, it tends to slow down after that. The fact they only sold 8 on the first listing is quite worrying especially if they've already paid upfront for 20,000 of them.

fantafanta

New silver Holland coin looks nice. I heard that central bank will issue a silver coin dedicated to scientist Ernest walton next year. Hopefully design will compliment the theme, which I guess wouldn't have automatic appeal to coin collectors imo.

DMcL1971

A new coin set is being advertised on the Central Bank website. It is a triple set containing the three silver coins from the 'Animals of Irish Coinage' series that was available in 2010 - 2012. It isn't for sale yet but will be available to buy at the coin fair in the RDS on 17 -19 October.

http://www.centralbank.ie/paycurr/collector/Pages/Coinsets.aspx

Not2Good

Thanks for that

DMcL1971

Not2Good wrote: »

Does anybody know when the Silver Horse sold out at the central bank? I tried to check the threads before posting in case it was answered already and saw nada.

Got a few before they sold out and just went back to get one or two more but all gone. Does that mean that they will go up in value or am I being too optimistic?

Thanks

Presumably that is why the Horse coins suddenly disappeared from the site recently. They must have only had a thousand of them left and needed them for these triple sets.

Spocker

DMcL1971 wrote: »

A new coin set is being advertised on the Central Bank website. It is a triple set containing the three silver coins from the 'Animals of Irish Coinage' series that was available in 2010 - 2012. It isn't for sale yet but will be available to buy at the coin fair in the RDS on 17 -19 October.

http://www.centralbank.ie/paycurr/collector/Pages/Coinsets.aspx

Do you think they would sell out at the fair? I'd like to get my hands on a set, but won't be able to attend....

DMcL1971

Spocker wrote: »

Do you think they would sell out at the fair? I'd like to get my hands on a set, but won't be able to attend....

That is the problem. It is fine if you live in Dublin or were planning on going to the fair anyway. But if you don't, it is a bit of a pain and expensive to go all the way to Dublin, just to get this coin set. I presume that they will also impose a limit, like they did with the Mestrovic sets. So it will probably only be one set per customer.

On the one hand the limit stops fair attendees from buying them all up, but on the other hand it means that you can't get someone else to buy you one if you can't make it to the fair. If there is a limit, then it is more likely that there will still be some available to buy online after the fair.

MasterSun

DMcL1971 wrote: »

Has anyone received their brochure in the post yet for this coin?

I received the new coin brochure in the post this morning.

Backfire

MasterSun wrote: »

I received the new coin brochure in the post this morning.

So did I, and ordered one over the phone :pac::cool:

DMcL1971

So, what do people make of this new triple set? Personally, I like it a lot. I have always been a fan of the 'Animals of Irish Coinage' series. They are beautiful but simple coins. They are reminiscent of the older coins of both decimal and pre-decimal times. I also like the look of the presentation of the three coins together.

pawrick

If the triple set had been available from the start I would have gone for it but not sure this time around as I already have a few of each albeit in individual boxes. Tough one but working on a v. limited budget with this hobby. I do like it though...

pimpmyhat

I think its a great idea, nice and compact aswell, I actually had one of each and sold them so this set will be perfect for me! I think the new coin looks great really nice detail on it so will be getting one for sure, Once your hooked theres no turning back!!

signostic

Coin Fair 17th - 19th October, RDS, What times does it begin on 17th (Friday)?

DMcL1971

signostic wrote: »

Coin Fair 17th - 19th October, RDS, What times does it begin on 17th (Friday)?

Doors usually open at 11:00.

pawrick

I still haven't received the booklet on this - usually I get a two copies

DMcL1971

pawrick wrote: »

I still haven't received the booklet on this - usually I get a two copies

You should give them a ring. I got mine on Tuesday and so did a few other people. They might have done a tidy up on their mailing list and removed you thinking you were a duplicate entry.

DMcL1971

So, did anyone pick up the new coin from the Central Bank? Does it look nice?

Spocker

DMcL1971 wrote: »

So, did anyone pick up the new coin from the Central Bank? Does it look nice?

Waiting for it to come in the post, it's a shame the CB don't send on the tracking number when they dispatch coins..

I picked it up at lunchtime yesterday, I really like the design, but don't like the finish on the coin.
It looks too shiney, I noticed that it's minted by Pobjoy Mint. Is this a first by them? or did they also do the McCormack Coin?

Backfire

Spocker wrote: »

Waiting for it to come in the post, it's a shame the CB don't send on the tracking number when they dispatch coins..

I got mine in the post today with cert number 479. :cool:

DMcL1971

Deleted User wrote: »

I picked it up at lunchtime yesterday, I really like the design, but don't like the finish on the coin.
It looks too shiney, I noticed that it's minted by Pobjoy Mint. Is this a first by them? or did they also do the McCormack Coin?

The only other coins that the Pobjoy Mint did were the Monastic Art and Lockout coins.

DMcL1971

Spocker wrote: »

Waiting for it to come in the post, it's a shame the CB don't send on the tracking number when they dispatch coins..

It would be nice but I reckon it's a bit too hi-tech for them.

Back at the start of 2013 they added a question to their order form to see if we wanted to receive the leaflets via E-Mail instead of paper. Nearly two years later the question is still on every order form but they haven't implemented the mailing list yet.

I don't think this coin is selling particularly fast, so the orders will probably ship pretty quickly though.

Ag4me

I've been a collector of Irish silver proofs for many years. Never had an issue with the quality until now.
Just found this thread and decided to sign up so i could comment.

The new John Philip Holland coin is terrible quality.

I got 3 of them, and they arrived friday. In just a few minutes of checking i knew there were problems with these coins.
I have taken several pictures of the defects but of course, with the boards.ie rules, i can't upload them.

I'll attempt to explain what i saw.....
Whether it's the planchets or the dies (i'm going with the die), there is a mottled, bumpy, pitted finish to the mirror field of the coins.
The edges of the design and the lettering have poor definition. They're not sharp. The metal is spread and uneven, like as if the die itself has worn (Pobjoy striking too many coins with the one die, to save producing extra dies, perhaps?).
And 2 of the 3 have dents on the face, and on the rim.
2 of the 3 have liquid stains (i say liquid because the stains don't have the tell-tale look of milk spot stains).

Overall, the worst minted coins the CB has commissioned, ever.
All mine are going back. And i'm not getting replacements. My guess is, a very large number are in a similar condition.
Shortcuts and cost cutting during production at the Pobjoy mint, and a lack of quality checking.
These are not proof coins, at best they can be designated brilliant-uncirculated.

Blade

Ag4me wrote: »

These are not proof coins, at best they can be designated brilliant-uncirculated.

Impaired Proofs might be a better description? Anyway I'm glad you've signed up to comment, you clearly know what you're talking about. These recent Boards.ie rules were just to stop spammers, I think you need 50 posts before you can post links or photos. I'll send you a private message with my email address, if you could please send me these photos by email I'll upload them for you here so we can further discuss it. Or if you already have them online somewhere I can repost the link for you.

Shelmalier

As a recent and novice collector of these coins I find all the posts on here interesting and informative. Ag4me's post is a particularly interesting aspect of the coins, production and their quality. If I want to inspect my coin properly as per Ag4me's comments is it always done through the plastic capsule or can/should it be removed carefully without touching it and do I need a magnifying glass to inspect it in detail or is it sufficient to do it with the naked eye?

Also, does the CB not mint their own general circulation coins in Sandyford? Can they not therefore mint a commemorative coin there and have they ever minted a commemorative coin or are they always minted by a 3rd party?

Blade

Shelmalier wrote: »

If I want to inspect my coin properly as per Ag4me's comments is it always done through the plastic capsule or can/should it be removed carefully without touching it and do I need a magnifying glass to inspect it in detail or is it sufficient to do it with the naked eye?

Also, does the CB not mint their own general circulation coins in Sandyford? Can they not therefore mint a commemorative coin there and have they ever minted a commemorative coin or are they always minted by a 3rd party?

They advise against opening the capsule at all so as not to let air pollution get at it, but I don't think it'll make much if any difference if you're just doing it for a few minutes in a clean environment. They would have been exposed to air at some stage before they were put in the capsules anyway. However there's no need to remove them, you can take one part of the capsule off, inspect it then flip the coin onto it's other side into the other part of the capsule, without ever touching it.

We don't know yet exactly what issues Ag4me is reporting until we see the pics. Haven't contacted him/her yet, will do shortly. But I don't think I'd worry too much about it if a magnifying glass is needed to see them. Haven't heard anyone else yet mention them so it'll be interesting to see. But yes if quality is poor I wouldn't be long about saying it to the people in charge.

In Sandyford they only mint the standard circulation coins, they don't have the facilities to produce any type of Proof coins.

Blade

Ok here's the post on behalf of Ag4me:

There is always a certain amount of slope immediately where the mirror field meets the design. But proof engraving limits this as much as possible, so a sharper line is achieved. It's usually not noticeable, that is to say it won't especially catch your eye when rotating the coin in the light. I find it to be very obvious on the coins i got. Now, I will say that to a beginner or someone just buying a souvenir issue, this won't be noted. Neither will the term "proof" matter much to them. But it matters to me - the bar is raised to a certain level when stating a coin is proof. And i make no apologies when using a certain magnification. A true proof should stand up to it.

For instance, look at this picture of the 2012 Hound. Compare the definition of the lines in the Hounds "15" to the "15" in the Holland coin below. That is the difference, for me, between coining a proof.... and not.



The pictures below are just a few examples of the loss of definition or spread of the metal. Due to wear-and-tear of the die? Or poor engraving process? There's nothing crisp or fine. The lines and lettering are all just so 'blotchy'



Pictures below show the cleaning and handling errors by the mint after the coins were minted. The first shows some dents. The second shows a stain. The third shows stains and a dent on the rim.

Sitamoia

Wow, just wow! :eek:

fritzelly

Was it just the one coin you got or the same on mulitple. - Edit Reread your comment and its all the coins, geez
It does look bad on the lettering and a dent like that certainly devalues it.

Blade

Certainly look like very poor quality "proofs" to me too. I don't have mine to hand to compare, but I'm sure the rest of you can let us know if yours are the same. It's possible his were weak or late strikes from worn dies but like he says there's also signs of very poor cleaning and handling after the striking.

Backfire

Sitamoia wrote: »

Wow, just wow! :eek:

Totally agree.

I have just inspected my proof coin using a small magnifying glass and it seems to be as sharp as the hound coin and nowhere near as bad as the holland coin in those photos. Those photos make it look like that's actually noticeable to the naked eye.

Shelmalier

I've looked closely at my coin under a magnifying glass and while I can see what Ag4me is getting at with regard to definition it definitely doesn't have some of the more obvious flaws that are in the pics. Does the serial no. reflect the point in the minting process when the coin was struck? My coin is 01333. I wonder if by any chance Ag4me has coins with much later serial nos. and would that mean they were struck later by which time the 'stamp' was blunted or less than 100%

I would certainly agree that anything the CB release should be up to the very best international standards of 'proof' coins and anything less should be brought to their attention. Maybe the less than perfect coins are the reason why they improved the case this time round and issued fancy CB bags in Dame Street?

Blade

Shelmalier wrote: »

Does the serial no. reflect the point in the minting process when the coin was struck? My coin is 01333. I wonder if by any chance Ag4me has coins with much later serial nos. and would that mean they were struck later by which time the 'stamp' was blunted or less than 100%

The serial numbers tend to be quite random even when you get a large batch of them together in one box. The packing is probably made by a different company and most likely all put together at the CB itself in Sandyford. Can't see there being any correlation between the cert numbers and the minting order.

DMcL1971

The first thing that occurs to me is that my close up eyesight is starting to go, so thanks for making me feel old. The second thing is, I can't find my magnifying glass anywhere (memory loss and sight loss, I really am getting old). The third thing is that my phone takes lousy photos up close.

But from what I can make out, none of the coins that I have are like the ones that Ag4me has. There are no stains or marks and I can't make out any spread on the metal. However there is one thing that I am seeing on all of them and that is a small dent on the outer rim at the end of the spiral. In Ag4me's photo there is damage on the face after the end of the spiral as well as on the outer edge of the rim. On mine there is only a dent on the outer rim and it is barely noticeable.

Spocker

I have a small stain on one of my Holland coins, but as the others have said, it's no where close to the poor condition of Ag4me's coins(s)

I'd have no hesitation in sending that coin back to the CB as an extremely poor example of a proof coin

Ag4me

First, my thanks to Blade for kindly taking the time to make the post for me, pictures do help a lot.

And thanks to everyone for some interesting feedback.
Actually, i'm more upbeat to hear that Backfire has an excellent one.
There may be hope yet to get a good one.

It's interesting as well, Shelmalier's is only showing smaller signs of what mine have.
I too, think as Blade does, that the distribution of the cert numbers are a random thing. Well, except for the first 5 or 6 struck which get used for presentations.... you would want to ensure those!
But curiously, the numbers i have are 2882,2883,2884. I've never actually gotten 3 consecutive certs before.
I guess it is possible they are actually 3 consecutive coins from a batch struck when the die was at the end of it's lifespan.

Oh, and i got a response from the CB today.
The standard reply, 'sorry to hear you are not happy, you may return them for refund, etc'.
But that's really all the staff can say, to be fair.
She did say my comments would be passed to Pobjoy, however.
I would say to anyone who has noticed even the slightest defect, to report to the CB. Even if you decide to hold on to it.

Only by reporting to them can we ensure that the next coin will have a thorough QC check by whichever mint, at the insistence of the CB.

Gun_money

Trying not to travel to the fair 17/18/19 OCt
What are the chances of the 3 coin set being available after the fair?
Anyone hazard a guess of the price after the fair?
Going on the Double set Ivan Mestrovic coins is listed at $450/€350 (a bit excessive?)

More interested to see coin + travel expenses vrs retail price after fair
To see is it worth my while.....