Retired teachers taking up substitution work

ticar79

I would like to know how common this practice is ? I met a retired teacher today who had no compunction whatsoever about working as a substitute teacher, despite having just taken early retirement.

I am currently subbing and eeking out a living with whatever scraps are available in my locality. I mentioned to her where I was working and she had the audacity to say that she would hand a C.V. in !

I am speechless that people don't seem to understand the impact of such a selfish approach. I'm sure she would like to get out of the house etc, but she has received a retirement package to compensate her. She is no doubt in receipt of an ample pension.

rainbowtrout

That may be so, I don't agree with it, but a person is entitled to work if they want. What you really have to look at is the schools that are hiring them. These people wouldn't be actively working/looking for work if they weren't able to get any work.

dazzer182

From anecdotal evidence around my way back home, it unfortunately seems to be accepted practise.

Kristopherus

I thought Ruari Quinn had banned that practice:mad:

pontia

why didint you take it up with her ? greedy old bat

Miss Lockhart

Whilst I think that everybody should be entitled to work and supplement their income if they want to, regardless of age, I don't think you should be effectively rehired to the position you have retired from - particularly those who took early retirement before the mandatory age by choice.

rainbowtrout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Whilst I think that everybody should be entitled to work and supplement their income if they want to, regardless of age, I don't think you should be effectively rehired to the position you have retired from - particularly those who took early retirement before the mandatory age by choice.

Yep, I agree... onus is on schools not to rehire, or not to be allowed rehire those who take early retirement.

deelite

I thought schools had a panel where they sourced sub teachers and any person joining (including retired teachers) went to the bottom of the list.

maidie

Same happens in Nursing, usually much more expensive to hire to, very unfair, if they are retired they are likely to be getting a fair decent pension whereas the newly qualified probably on Jobseekers benefit

doc_17

The recently retired teachers in their mid or early 50s are rubbing salt into the open wounds of the younger teachers whose terms and conditions have been sold off when they engage in this work.

byhookorbycrook

deelite wrote: »

I thought schools had a panel where they sourced sub teachers and any person joining (including retired teachers) went to the bottom of the list.

Not in primary, no.I agree that priority should be given to NQTS, but what do you do if no-one wants the work at the last moment?

chippers

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Not in primary, no.I agree that priority should be given to NQTS, but what do you do if no-one wants the work at the last moment?

ah this old chestnut. Surely with the levels of teacher unemployment that this scenario has been greatly diminished. Is it just the easy option for school management?

Other than one or two subjects most schools could have tens if not hundreds of cv's on their desk of people eagerly looking for sub work. We had a thread on boards just this week of people feeling depressed waiting by their phone for some sub work - and these were people with years experience.

Fizzical

pontia wrote: »

why didint you take it up with her ? greedy old bat

What an offensive thing to say.

Anyone who has retired from a job has a right to try to supplement their income.

Who exactly are you to judge that someone else is (a) greedy (b) old or (c) a "bat"? This is a sexist, ageist and childish statement.

I still remember being told years ago about those dreadful married women who took jobs that men should have - those greedy old bats were taking jobs from married men that needed to support their families, they were taking food out of the mouths of children etc.

What happened to the T&L mantra of "the best person for the job"? You can't have it both ways. Jobs should be given on merit - unless it discommodes you?

happywithlife

i agree with op on this one
i do some marking with the sec a couple of times a year and do the superintending in the summer as well (all to supplement my low pay due to lack of hours) and it maddens me every time to see retired people at these conferences etc and i know for fact young teacher are applying every year and can't get on the panel
why the heck isn't there a stronger onus on the sec to hire younger teachers over retired people? - i have no problem where there is a lack of people applying for the work but in an era when part-time teachers are crying out for this kind of work (not even to supplement their pay but also to progress their experience at marking exams) it is shameful that the sec hire retired teachers.
interestingly, this discussion has been ongoing in my staff room over the last couple of weeks - and i was shocked to see that one older teacher in particular was so oblivious (am i spelling that correctly?) to the pay and conditions of her younger, part-time colleagues - she is shocked now to realise how pay etc have been eroded and i wonder how many others like her are out there? that are clueless as to the changes in pay and conditions for NTQ

rainbowtrout

Fizzical wrote: »

What an offensive thing to say.

Anyone who has retired from a job has a right to try to supplement their income.

Who exactly are you to judge that someone else is (a) greedy (b) old or (c) a "bat"? This is a sexist, ageist and childish statement.

I still remember being told years ago about those dreadful married women who took jobs that men should have - those greedy old bats were taking jobs from married men that needed to support their families, they were taking food out of the mouths of children etc.

What happened to the T&L mantra of "the best person for the job"? You can't have it both ways. Jobs should be given on merit - unless it discommodes you?

I'd agree that the best person should get the job, but in the case of the person who has taken early retirement from teaching, it would suggest though that they are not in need of the money, otherwise they would have stayed on in their job, so they shouldn't be getting priority for subbing hours.

If they took early retirement on health or inability to teach grounds then they shouldn't be back in the classroom either.

But I agree on the other points. I was working with a teacher who retired last year who had reached 65 so she had to retire, but she had nowhere near her full years done, maybe only half because she started teaching late in life as she spent most of her adult/married life rearing her family, so it would have suited her financially to stay working but she couldn't.

rainbowtrout

happywithlife wrote: »

i agree with op on this one
i do some marking with the sec a couple of times a year and do the superintending in the summer as well (all to supplement my low pay due to lack of hours) and it maddens me every time to see retired people at these conferences etc and i know for fact young teacher are applying every year and can't get on the panel
why the heck isn't there a stronger onus on the sec to hire younger teachers over retired people? - i have no problem where there is a lack of people applying for the work but in an era when part-time teachers are crying out for this kind of work (not even to supplement their pay but also to progress their experience at marking exams) it is shameful that the sec hire retired teachers.
interestingly, this discussion has been ongoing in my staff room over the last couple of weeks - and i was shocked to see that one older teacher in particular was so oblivious (am i spelling that correctly?) to the pay and conditions of her younger, part-time colleagues - she is shocked now to realise how pay etc have been eroded and i wonder how many others like her are out there? that are clueless as to the changes in pay and conditions for NTQ

She's probably not completely oblivious to the cuts, but when it's not in her pay packet she's not going to know exactly what other people are on. You just have a vague awareness of people who would be on a similar wage to you and those that would be on more or less than you. For instance anyone that started in my school after me, who is younger than me and I know for a fact has less years done than me is earning less than me, however I don't sit down going 'Mary Murphy started here 4 years ago as an NQT, so this year she is on point 7, having started on point 3 of the scale, and she started in 2008 so she's on the old pay scale, but she's only on 11 hours so she's on half pay. Therefore Mary must only be bringing home 23K a year, that's shockin' low in comparison to me'.

It's a bit more, 'Mary is relatively new, she's on low hours, I hope the DP gives her a bit of subbing when it comes up as it'll be a bit extra in her pay packet' no more than those on the reduced pay scales probably don't sit there thinking 'Rainbowtrout has been here for twice as long as me, and has a B post, she must be raking it in' Again they just know I earn more than them, but nobody really puts a figure on it.

I would have great awareness of the conditions of those entering teaching in the last couple of years, I have posted about it enough on here, but imagine the person who is just vaguely aware of '10% paycut, no allowances' like you describe, they don't put a figure on it, it's just less than they earn, which is where NQTs are in comparison to them anyway.


Also if there is a range of age groups on staff, well in my staff room the women who have been teaching there 30+ years and have been working together for a long time and are of a similar age 50+ tend to sit together at lunch and chat and would be friends outside school. They would have more in common overall, kids of a similar age etc. The same is true of younger staff who are of a similar age, started working in the school around the same time, socialise together, so as I fall into the second category where all the part timers tend to be I am acutely aware of the hours they are on, as it would come up in conversation regularly in terms of extra hours they might have been given in resource, subbing they got this week, where as for the older group this doesn't form part of their everyday conversations, so while they are aware that people are on less hours and less money, they aren't hearing the details of that on a day to day basis, so are less clued in. Doesn't apply to every staffroom I'd imagine, but is possibly a general trend.

ticar79

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/plan-to-prevent-retired-teachers-taking-sub-work-152493.html

This article from 2011 sums it up basically.

Yes, people have a right to work, but don't take early retirement, if you can't afford it.

FISMA

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That may be so, I don't agree with it, but a person is entitled to work if they want.

If you are drawing a pension from teaching it should be illegal for you to teach.

Getting a pension and getting paid for the same job sounds like double dipping to me and it is not fair to the next generation of teachers.

rainbowtrout

FISMA wrote: »

If you are drawing a pension from teaching it should be illegal for you to teach.

Getting a pension and getting paid for the same job sounds like double dipping to me and it is not fair to the next generation of teachers.

Once a person has drawn down a pension, any further pay they get from subbing is not eligible for that same pension, they are treated as new entrants are, and will still have to pay superannuation even though they can't claim it back.

Most teachers who have done 40 years service should have no need to go subbing after they've retired. The vast majority of people on my staff have retired since I started teaching in the school and not one of them has come back subbing. I wouldn't deny the person the right to earn some money after retirement, their financial position may not be as stable as it appears, but the main loophole here comes back to the fact that legislation still allows for schools to employ retired teachers and is flimsy enough for it to be abused 'a retired teacher can be hired if no other teacher is available'... well how hard does the principal look??? If it was cut and dried 'a retired teacher cannot be hired for subbing' then it would stop the practice overnight. Sometimes they are not even looking for work, it's the school that rings them, who is going to turn down the opportunity to earn a couple of hundred euro for what may amount to supervising classes if it's not for the retired teachers own subject and that person has no plans for a day or two?

Kristopherus

Typical Dept of Ed tardiness in not locking out retired teachers from re-entering employment in a school. The early retirement scheme of 2009/10 for Civil & Public servants explicitly forbids the retirees from working in ANY state agency after availing of the Scheme.

RealJohn

FISMA wrote: »

If you are drawing a pension from teaching it should be illegal for you to teach.

Getting a pension and getting paid for the same job sounds like double dipping to me and it is not fair to the next generation of teachers.

Think of this, you do have a point. We were all complaining about former government ministers drawing ministerial pensions while still being paid salaries as sitting TDs. It's the same thing really, even if retired teachers are earning far less.

I do agree that just because you're retired, you shouldn't be forbidden from working but I also agree that if you can't afford to retire then you shouldn't retire and come back looking to do your old job part time too.

If they're that short of money, they could always give grinds.

It doesn't affect me personally but I think we've really let NQTs down by allowing their pay to be cut without any protest and but we really should at least help them get a few subbing hours in.

spurious

What's the point of asking on all the forms for SEC exam work if you are retired, if they then ignore it and hire people anyway?

byhookorbycrook

chippers wrote: »

ah this old chestnut. Surely with the levels of teacher unemployment that this scenario has been greatly diminished. Is it just the easy option for school management?

Other than one or two subjects most schools could have tens if not hundreds of cv's on their desk of people eagerly looking for sub work. We had a thread on boards just this week of people feeling depressed waiting by their phone for some sub work - and these were people with years experience.

For a day's work in primary, outside the Pale ,text-a-sub used, anyone local rang,then further afield and school is about to start, what would you do?

Fizzical

FISMA wrote: »

If you are drawing a pension from teaching it should be illegal for you to teach.

Getting a pension and getting paid for the same job sounds like double dipping to me and it is not fair to the next generation of teachers.

"It is not fair to the next generation of teachers"?

Since when has charity to those less well off been on the list of reasons to appoint someone to a job?

We are talking about schools hiring retirees (with a known record of experience and competence, and knowledge of how the school works) over newbies, aren't we? Rather than devils-in-disguise of retirees who spend all their days plotting to take your job?

Get your targets right.

If there is a sociological reason to ban retirees from working in schools, then it is up to the DES and JMB etc to organise it. Target them. As it is, present arrangements must suit management or they would have been changed.

ticar79

Yes, expedience may be at the heart of a lot of these decisions, but there can be no doubt that the rehiring of somebody who has received an early retirement package is ethically wrong. I reiterate, do not leave the system if you can ill-afford it. To me it smacks of rapacious greed and cute hoor opportunism.

rainbowtrout

ticar79 wrote: »

Yes, expedience may be at the heart of a lot of these decisions, but there can be no doubt that the rehiring of somebody who has received an early retirement package is ethically wrong. I reiterate, do not leave the system if you can ill-afford it. To me it smacks of rapacious greed and cute hoor opportunism.

Again sweeping generalisations.

Before you go slagging off all retired teachers that are subbing, consider how they end up doing subbing hours. Any retired teacher I have ever known that has done subbing hours in the last few years has been contacted by the school and asked to do it, not the other way around. The example the OP gave is not typical of the retired teacher subbing situation.

Your post is reminiscent of the 'greedy old bat' post that was posted yesterday.

Most of the retired teachers working have been phoned by principals who probably ring them up and say 'Mary Murphy is out for a few days, I'm a bit stuck, will you cover her classes, they were the fifth years you had last year, etc'

I've seen plenty of NQTs come looking for work, handing in CVs for subbing, never have I seen someone clutching their pension book and their bus pass and a CV come looking for subbing work in my school.

Not exactly the same thing but slightly related. I have also seen younger teachers over the years pass comment on older teachers who are near the end of their teaching career (35+ years) saying things along the lines of 'wouldn't you think she'd have enough years done to retire, she'd be getting a good pension, and free up some hours for the younger teachers, it would mean the NQT wouldn't lose her job due to cutbacks'. Amazing sense of entitlement that a person thinks a permanent older teacher should just retire and give up their livelihood and source of income and move over to make room for a younger teacher.

Miss Lockhart

I don't know rainbowtrout, I know of several retired teachers (early retirement) who have been given a few classes a week at their request.

spurious

God if I managed to get early retirement you wouldn't see me for dust.

rainbowtrout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I don't know rainbowtrout, I know of several retired teachers (early retirement) who have been given a few classes a week at their request.

Well that should definitely be clamped down on. I still feel the biggest loophole is principals actively hiring retired teachers.

I too wouldn't be seen for dust if I took retirement.

If those teachers still want to teach, they should have gone on job share rather than retire.

Fizzical

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not exactly the same thing but slightly related. I have also seen younger teachers over the years pass comment on older teachers who are near the end of their teaching career (35+ years) saying things along the lines of 'wouldn't you think she'd have enough years done to retire, she'd be getting a good pension, and free up some hours for the younger teachers, it would mean the NQT wouldn't lose her job due to cutbacks'. Amazing sense of entitlement that a person thinks a permanent older teacher should just retire and give up their livelihood and source of income and move over to make room for a younger teacher.

Exactly. When times get tough, scapegoats are looked for and in this case, ageism is rearing its ugly head. The underlying assumption is that the older or retired teacher is less worthy of a decent job and wage than the younger one.

Miss Lockhart

Fizzical wrote: »

Exactly. When times get tough, scapegoats are looked for and in this case, ageism is rearing its ugly head. The underlying assumption is that the older or retired teacher is less worthy of a decent job and wage than the younger one.

I don't think there's anything ageist in thinking it is ethically wrong to retire and then be rehired by the same employer.

Fizzical

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well that should definitely be clamped down on. I still feel the biggest loophole is principals actively hiring retired teachers.

I too wouldn't be seen for dust if I took retirement.

If those teachers still want to teach, they should have gone on job share rather than retire.

Of course Principals actively hire retired teachers - it's Principals that are in charge of hiring, not the applicants.

And I think I'll be wiping the dust off my feet too when I go out that door!

But, as far as I know, if you job share towards the end of your career then you halve your pension as it's based on your salary over the last 3 years of service. That's some deterrent to job sharing which would be the sensible thing to do when you get older.

Fizzical

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I don't think there's anything ageist in thinking it is ethically wrong to retire and then be rehired by the same employer.

Unethical of the employer, maybe, depending on how the payment is worked out. Not unethical of the person employed however. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Miss Lockhart

Fizzical wrote: »

Unethical of the employer, maybe, depending on how the payment is worked out. Not unethical of the person employed however. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Well, I'm afraid I disagree. I don't think you should be entitled to a pension while you are still employed by the same employer.

ticar79

The particular incident I referred to may not be representative of the whole. The retired teacher I am referring to had been granted early retirement and is now actively seeking subsitution work. This to me smacks of opportunism.

I am certainly not ageist and value the experience older teachers bring to the staffroom and school.

jonseyblub

I remember being at a union meeting and this issue came up. The SEC are keen to have younger teachers taking up the positions but they are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of age. It's in some law or other. However I think that once the education act is enacted in full only people with a teaching council number will be eligible for the jobs. Retired teachers are entitled to renew their TC status but many may not wish to do so and so open up more positions.

maynooth_rules

If a person is claiming a public sector pension then they should NOT be allowed receive another income from the public sector such as from substitute teaching. This is a very easy practice to stop. It seems like a practice that is morally wrong but accepted in Ireland.

Lord TSC

Fizzical wrote: »

Unethical of the employer, maybe, depending on how the payment is worked out. Not unethical of the person employed however. That's the point I'm trying to make.

I'd be along this line of thinking.

I say this as a 25 year old who is left sitting on his ass cause of a lack of jobs; I don't blame the teachers who return to work. Ultimately, they want the best life possible, and I don't know if I was in their position I wouldn't be doing the same. Each person is responsible only to themselves, and we live in a society where people are encouraged to ignore the plight of others in a bid to ensure the highest amount of income is earned. The person is only accountable to the individual self.

I, personally, blame the system which allows this to happen. Jobs are few and far between for young teachers without having to deal with the fact the few there are are going to people who have said "I'm done....PSYCH!". I blame the principals (and other such teachers) who not only allow such practices but actively engage in them. I blame the unions who, as with other problems young teachers face, seem quite happy to just let it happen.

It's a problem that could be easily fixed but those who could fix it don't want to. It's the people who have said "We will take responsibility for the larger group, and ensure the individuals are taken care of equally...PSYCH!". These are the people who shall take the brunt of my annoyance.

Fizzical

Point of info: what does "PSYCH!" mean??

TheDriver

from a management perspective:
a) Retired teachers should be a last resort
b) its actually quite difficult to get subs, you get a litany of excuses down the phone when you look for someone, admittedly at short notice
c) Schools in less attractive areas of the country have lots of trouble getting subs, especially primary in a""ehole of nowhere.
d) certain subjects are impossible to fill for a day or two. Try getting an irish teacher for 2 days subbing...........

If a qualified good teacher is available, great. If not, its our job to fill the subbing hours with someone qualified if possible...

FISMA

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Each person is responsible only to themselves, and we live in a society where people are encouraged to ignore the plight of others in a bid to ensure the highest amount of income is earned. The person is only accountable to the individual self.

Anyone with this attitude should never be allowed to teach/be a role model to young people in primary or secondary school.

Fundamentally, my problem with allowing people on pensions to work again in their old field is that it is as if the government is subsidizing older teachers over younger ones.

Lord TSC

Fizzical wrote: »

Point of info: what does "PSYCH!" mean??

To retract your previous statement, in an attempt to fool the person you're talking/chatting to. Also see sike.

From Urban Dictionary :P

FISMA wrote: »

Anyone with this attitude should never be allowed to teach/be a role model to young people in primary or secondary school.

I should stress, I'm not saying I follow that mantra personally. I'm not that type of guy myself. Just that that is the society and culture we live in. That's capitalism at it's core.

desmurphy

not all teachers have full or even decent pensions. maybe they have children in college etc.