Are the Irish bad drivers?

djimi · 06-12-2012 02:49PM

JoePie wrote: »

I must've edited my post after you quoted me.

That's a very general statement though. If you're at a large roundabout and you see a car on it, that's far enough away for you to safely pull out, you're going to pull out. Don't tell me otherwise. The issue I'm getting at is when you're pulling out, and all of a sudden they're swinging around the roundabout with no indication they were ever going to.

If they are on the roundabout they have right of way, end of story. If you can pull out safely in front of them then go for it. But if youre pulling onto the roundabout causes them an issue because they were too close to you to allow you to pull out safely then you are at fault; how they were indicating is totally irrelevant. If they are on the roundabout then it is their road until they start to pull off it. No ifs, but, or maybes.

Also in response to

If I'm in a situation where I end up driving poorly, it's because of someone else's poor driving.

If you end up driving poorly its because you drove poorly, not because of anyone else. Only you control how you behave on the road. Any situation that you have described in this thread and any danger that arises from it is caused by your actions, not the actions of the other car.

dr.fuzzenstein · 06-12-2012 03:05PM

jimmy the car wrote: »

Really p*ssing me off now, been noticing it lately, stretch of road I travel to work, between Warrenpoint and Newry, 8 mile dual carriagway a certain driver comes off roundabout onto dual carriagway every morning around my time of travel and sits in the passing lane the whole fecking way up to the 7 mile mark just because there is a fecking turn off and she doesn't want to miss, and no amount of flashing or horn beeping will move her, the murder rate will definitely increase by one some day soon if she keeps it up.....

Pass on the inside, get in front of her and gently slow down till she tries to pass you on the inside.
Floor it.
Do that till she gets it.

JoePie · 06-12-2012 03:15PM

djimi wrote: »

If they are on the roundabout they have right of way, end of story. If you can pull out safely in front of them then go for it. But if youre pulling onto the roundabout causes them an issue because they were too close to you to allow you to pull out safely then you are at fault; how they were indicating is totally irrelevant. If they are on the roundabout then it is their road until they start to pull off it. No ifs, but, or maybes.

Yeah, danger could and would arise from my actions, because of the original point of... not indicating! Me pulling onto the roundabout only causes an issue because they have created it.

djimi wrote: »

If you end up driving poorly its because you drove poorly, not because of anyone else. Only you control how you behave on the road. Any situation that you have described in this thread and any danger that arises from it is caused by your actions, not the actions of the other car.

How many times have you been at a junction going to turn right when you have absolutely every right to, and some lad decides to burn up the road to make the lights coming in the opposite direction, and you've had to jam on the brakes so he can tear past you and cut you off from turning? It's happened to me plenty of times. Yes the guy going straight has right of way, but when you perform your maneuver, they were not in a position to command right of way. Me having to hit my brakes is not a fault of my own actions. In no way have I done anything wrong in this situation. Dangerous driving has crobarred them into a position of right of way, leading me to perform potentially dangerous actions. Yeah, I'm responsible for my actions, but not the root cause.

djimi · 06-12-2012 03:25PM

JoePie wrote: »

Yeah, danger could and would arise from my actions, because of the original point of... not indicating! Me pulling onto the roundabout only causes an issue because they have created it.

Youre not getting this at all, are you?!!

The danger in this situation is not caused by the guy on the roundabout; the danger is caused by your assumption that they are going to turn off the roundabout before they get to you when there is nothing to suggest that this is what they intend to do. If they are not indicating and you assume that they are going to continue on around the roundabout past you, and based on this assumption you wait patiently until they are passed to pull out then there is no danger.

JoePie wrote: »

How many times have you been at a junction going to turn right when you have absolutely every right to, and some lad decides to burn up the road to make the lights coming in the opposite direction, and you've had to jam on the brakes so he can tear past you and cut you off from turning? It's happened to me plenty of times. Yes the guy going straight has right of way, but when you perform your maneuver, they were not in a position to command right of way. Me having to hit my brakes is not a fault of my own actions. In no way have I done anything wrong in this situation. Dangerous driving has crobarred them into a position of right of way, leading me to perform potentially dangerous actions. Yeah, I'm responsible for my actions, but not the root cause.

To be honest, chances are that if he puts the power down in such a way that it causes an issue for you then its pretty likely he was too close to pull out in front of in the first place.

I get the point that you are trying to make, but it would have to be a fairly extreme situation for you to be in the right, and in such a situation unless you could prove that the other car acted dangerously youd probably still be found to be at fault.

JoePie · 06-12-2012 03:29PM

I can think of several junctions around Dublin 15 where this happens regularly.

I fully get what you're saying. Yes, I'm causing danger, as a result of someone else causing danger. Chain reaction.

Pay attention to vehicles already on the roundabout. In particular, be aware of their signals and try to judge where they plan to exit.

Straight from the RSA website. By my definition, I am aware that they are not signalling to cross my entrance to take an exit after it, and I am judging that they will exit the roundabout before my entrance.

You are saying I should give right of way to all traffic to the right. I agree with you on this at any other junction. The reality of driving for me anyway, is that it's a lot more grey in reality, than the more black and white notions on paper.

I think it's fair to say that we're going to disagree on this all day.

dulpit · 06-12-2012 03:30PM

Indricotherium wrote: »

Not turning right or left on a green light, waiting for the filter on an empty road

There's a few junctions I drive through fairly regularly where there's a light for turning left/right (with an arrow) and a different light for going straightahead (again, with an arrow, not a solid light). And people thing that if the green straight on arrow is lit they can turn. huh?

renofan · 06-12-2012 03:33PM

I drive in England regularly and have to say I get more en-raged driving in Ireland. So many people don't know what they are doing here, roundabouts, yellow boxes and incorrect use of lanes on motorways/dual carriage ways is a joke here. In England 99.99% of the time people will always go to the left most lane when possible and signal on roundabouts.

djimi · 06-12-2012 03:34PM

JoePie wrote: »

I can think of several junctions around Dublin 15 where this happens regularly.

I fully get what you're saying. Yes, I'm causing danger, as a result of someone else causing danger. Chain reaction.

Straight from the RSA website. By my definition, I am aware that they are not signalling to cross my entrance to take an exit after it, and I am judging that they will exit the roundabout before my entrance.

You are saying I should give right of way to all traffic to the right. I agree with you on this at any other junction. The reality of driving for me anyway, is that it's a lot more grey in reality, than the more black and white notions on paper.

I think it's fair to say that we're going to disagree on this all day.

I give up. The only way you are going to see how ridiculous your thinking sounds is when you end up in a wreck on a roundabout. I just hope for the sake of whoever you might crash into that it doesnt happen.

JoePie · 06-12-2012 03:37PM

I don't think I'll be coming around to your way of thinking anytime either, so I'll leave it here too.

I also hope I don't wreck, or someone not indicating is going to get punished.

djimi · 06-12-2012 03:40PM

JoePie wrote: »

I don't think I'll be coming around to your way of thinking anytime either, so I'll leave it here too.

I also hope I don't wreck, or someone not indicating is going to get punished.

No they wont; youll be the one who is found to be at fault, regardless of whether they were indicating or not.

JoePie · 06-12-2012 03:59PM

Doesn't stop me giving them a smack.

ballooba · 06-12-2012 04:04PM

djimi wrote: »

To be honest, chances are that if he puts the power down in such a way that it causes an issue for you then its pretty likely he was too close to pull out in front of in the first place.

Or that the person waiting to turn right is too hesitant. i.e. didn't take their gap or needs an inordinate amount of time to adjust to events.

Sofiztikated · 06-12-2012 05:10PM

See, JoePie's attitude is exactly what is wrong with Irish peoples attitudes to driving.

Doing something wrong.
Gets pointed out.
Argue blue in the face they are correct.

Honestly, JoePie, if something you are doing causes another driver to slam on the brakes, and it occurs more than 1 time, then it's possible you are wrong.

If it was a straight road, and someone pulled out in front of you, causing you to slam on the brakes, then who is at fault? It's the very same on a roundabout, only the road is curved.

JoePie · 06-12-2012 05:15PM

I'm the one hitting the brakes on the roundabout, buddy.

dulpit · 06-12-2012 05:27PM

JoePie wrote: »

I'm the one hitting the brakes on the roundabout, buddy.

Because a car is coming around the roundabout, on which they have the right of way?

Sofiztikated · 06-12-2012 05:39PM

JoePie wrote: »

I'm the one hitting the brakes on the roundabout, buddy.

So you have to brake because there is someone already on the road where you want to be?

I'm a bit confused there, Ted.

JoePie · 06-12-2012 05:49PM

I'm breaking because there is a car with right of way on the roundabout I want to get onto, and the only reason they have right of way is because they have not signalled their intentions to cut across me, leading me to assume I am free to proceed.

Sofiztikated · 06-12-2012 05:50PM

JoePie wrote: »

I'm breaking because there is a car with right of way on the roundabout I want to get onto, and the only reason they have right of way is because they have not signalled their intentions to cut across me, leading me to assume I am free to proceed.

No. No. NO!

They have right of way, because they are there before you.

JoePie · 06-12-2012 05:57PM

I'm not getting into all this again. It would be so much easier to explain in person or with lovely pictures. Needless to say, no-one is understanding the scenario. You're all just seeing it as black or white right of way BS. Not what's actually happening.

challengemaster · 06-12-2012 06:02PM

JoePie wrote: »

I'm breaking because there is a car with right of way on the roundabout I want to get onto, and the only reason they have right of way is because they have not signalled their intentions to cut across me, leading me to assume I am free to proceed.

Right of way has nothing to do with indicators, or signaling intentions. Right of way has to do with where you are on the road. It doesn't matter if they have their hazards on, wear a clown costume and a scream mask while singing Wild Rover going through the roundabout. It doesn't alter their right of way

JoePie · 06-12-2012 06:13PM

I've agreed already that they have right of way. In their head they have right of way all the way through the roundabout, which is correct. That's not the issue.

The issue is that by not indicating, I judge that I can enter the roundabout as long as they're a safe distance away. I'm judging that by not indicating, they are exiting the roundabout at the same exit I am entering from if I see them coming from the direct opposite entrance. I cannot know they intend to go all the way around, therefore passing my entrance.

If someone entered the roundabout from the exit on my right and didn't indicate, I would assume they are not turning left and are at the very least, exiting the roundabout at some point past me, so I would wait until it was clear.

By the logic being argued against me today, if someone was to enter a roundabout in front of me and doesn't indicate, I should sit there at the entrance in case they decide to do a full loop of the roundabout, and I should wait until they exit the roundabout completely.

ANYWAY, the whole point boils down to indicators aren't being used on roundabouts, and that's wrong.

Sofiztikated · 06-12-2012 06:37PM

JoePie wrote: »

I've agreed already that they have right of way. In their head they have right of way all the way through the roundabout, which is correct. That's not the issue.

The issue is that by not indicating, I judge that I can enter the roundabout as long as they're a safe distance away. I'm judging that by not indicating, they are exiting the roundabout at the same exit I am entering from if I see them coming from the direct opposite entrance. I cannot know they intend to go all the way around, therefore passing my entrance.

If someone entered the roundabout from the exit on my right and didn't indicate, I would assume they are not turning left and are at the very least, exiting the roundabout at some point past me, so I would wait until it was clear.

By the logic being argued against me today, if someone was to enter a roundabout in front of me and doesn't indicate, I should sit there at the entrance in case they decide to do a full loop of the roundabout, and I should wait until they exit the roundabout completely.

ANYWAY, the whole point boils down to indicators aren't being used on roundabouts, and that's wrong.

Whether or not they are exiting before your entrance, if you can safely pull out, then fine. If you are having to jam on the brakes every time, then there's something wrong with your driving. Either too quick to assume a gap, or too slow to take off to use a gap. It's not the other driver.

creedp · 06-12-2012 06:47PM

challengemaster wrote: »

Right of way has nothing to do with indicators, or signaling intentions. Right of way has to do with where you are on the road. It doesn't matter if they have their hazards on, wear a clown costume and a scream mask while singing Wild Rover going through the roundabout. It doesn't alter their right of way

He may have a point if he is going onto a 2 lane roundabout and wants to exit at the 1st exit. If the cars on the roundabout are on the righthand lane and not indicating left then he is saying can he assume he can enter the roundabout on the left lane and exit without being careered into by the lad in the right lane swerving across at the last minute without using the left indicator. In fairness its a bit frustrating to be waiting at a roundabout wanting to exit at the 1st exit while cars keep spinning around the right hand lane of the roundabout.

Of course the legal experts are right - the guys on the roundabout have right away and they don't need to use their indicators to protect themselves from a claim in the event of a crash. However, many of the same people will seriously criticize drivers who don't indicate right when exiting after the 2nd exit or after the 12 o'clock point whichever you fancy better. Bottom line is that people on a roundabout who are not exiting at the next exit (i.e. not indicating left) should have their right indicator on and in that scenario you could safety enter the roundabout in the left hand lane to exit at 1st exit.

That's my take on it anyway and I regularly operate on this basis, although like in a lot of other scenarios its a risk as many drivers don't know when the indicator switch is or couldn't care less about any other user of the road so aren't bothering using it.

dr.fuzzenstein · 06-12-2012 07:09PM

Oh God, this has descended into a roundabout thread.
This will go on and on...

Spook_ie · 06-12-2012 07:49PM

JoePie wrote: »

No question it's bad driving on my part, but I'm coming from the angle that if an indicator isn't on, you're going straight, which more often than not is the case. Again, I'm assuming, but I don't want to be sitting at a roundabout all day waiting for other cars to exit whenever they feel like it. Anyway, this issue wouldn't arise if indicators were used like they're supposed to be. If I see an indicator, I'll happily sit there and wait.

But on the basis that they aren't indicating left to leave the RaB you should assume they are staying on the RaB

lazeedaisy · 07-12-2012 09:26AM

JoePie wrote: »

ANYWAY, the whole point boils down to indicators aren't being used on roundabouts, and that's wrong.

So, there is nothing we can do about it - except always anticipate the driver in front does not know what they are doing,

There are lots of things in life wrong - what do you suggest - we start shooting people who do something wrong - and if we do - then we have all done things that are wrong in our life at some stage,

you can throw your soother out of the pram to say how wrong things are but that cant end an argument

Bruthal · 07-12-2012 10:02AM

JoePie wrote: »

If the vehicle is on the roundabout and I can't see a right indicator, more often than not, they intend on going straight, so I'll pull out. But as I'm pulling out, they start turning right. Granted, you could say it's my fault for not giving right of way, but how am I supposed to know I was supposed to.

You`re one of the examples for this thread. If you cant allow for others not being perfect, then you yourself are a bad driver.
Assuming they could just possibly continue right, would be a far better and safer method. Intuition to what might happen, instead of blindly assuming, almost looking for a reason to get angry at a roundabout, is terrible driving.

JoePie wrote: »

Matter of time before I get into a fist fight on a road some day. I can concentrate on my own driving no problem, but someone else's driving is going to get me into an accident.

It will if you maintain your terrible roundabout methods as above.

Bruthal · 07-12-2012 10:04AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Oh God, this has descended into a roundabout thread.
This will go on and on...

I think they should make them square. Circles are too confusing for the Irish driver.

Indricotherium · 08-12-2012 01:10PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Oh God, this has descended into a roundabout thread.
This will go on and on...

Round and round and round

Lingua Franca · 08-12-2012 01:20PM

Can we get back to "at least we're not Italian"? I was enjoying that.

To contribute: we once drove up towards a roundabout to get into Florence. All the cars ahead of us were pulling U turns and going back. When we got to the front of the queue and saw the roundabout we realised why, there was a row of 6 cars all shunted right into each other, with the drivers and passengers all screaming at each other out of the windows. Not one of them would step out of the car to assess the damage or resolve the situation, as if the first person to do so would be accepting the blame.

Are the Irish bad drivers?

Comments