Best heavyweight boxers from 60/70's vs 90/00's ?

byronbay2

Certainly, Lewis's weakness was his laziness in training. He seemed only to train to a level he felt was enough to beat who he was fighting. He was caught flush by McCall (a decent boxer imo, when his mind was on the game) early on and always looked sluggish at altitude (and unfit) against Rahman. As you know, he avenged both of these defeats easily when his mind was focussed on the rematch.
The other thing I would argue about Lewis is that he improved as a boxer throughout his career (Manny Stewart must take a lot of credit) and fought at his best in his early thirties. Tyson was a meteor that was burnt out even before he went to prison the first time. In fact there is an argument for saying he was never the same fighter after sacking Kevin Rooney in 1988.

walshb

byronbay2 wrote: »

In fact there is an argument for saying he was never the same fighter after sacking Kevin Rooney in 1988.

I agree. Boxing at the highest level can see the slightest change/let up or slackening off cost a fighter. Mike was known to be partying and not training as hard as he was pre Givens. Once Rooney went, he really started to slide. Rooney was a powerful motivator in Mike's championship reign. I don't know about you guys, but Tyson in Tokyo looked a step slower and a step lazier; and that was before Buster even began to work him over.

T-K-O

byronbay2 wrote: »

I didn't come on here to diss Tyson or big-up Lewis but the Tyson-appreciation society here is a bit OTT.
First things first: Tyson was never a proper heavyweight to begin with. Built like a brick sh*thouse, yes, but 5' 11" - my hole! My friend has a picture taken with Tyson, where he is at least 2 inches taller - my friend is 5' 11". Even Holyfield was looking down at Tyson!
Tyson beat some big men but nobody of the calibre of Lewis/Foreman. A big man (Buster Douglas) beat him convincingly when supposedly at his peak. Tyson, peak or otherwise, would imo have no chance against the huge men (Lewis was a genuine 6' 5") previously mentioned - proper heavyweights but also athletes and excellent boxers.
On another issue, I don't see how anyone could rate the Klitchkos above Lewis. In his last fight, well past his best, Lewis accounted for a peak Vitali in 6 rounds, albeit on a TKO due to a cut.

Not the Klitchkos ....Vitali.

Lewis won the fight and from memory it was close maybe Lewis slightly ahead on the cards. Anyway it was a close fight. Vitali deserves his spot and he could mix it with any HW of any generation

cowzerp

T-K-O wrote: »

Not the Klitchkos ....Vitali.

Lewis won the fight and from memory it was close maybe Lewis slightly ahead on the cards. Anyway it was a close fight. Vitali deserves his spot and he could mix it with any HW of any generation

Vitali was 4-2 ahead and this is a fact.

T-K-O

cowzerp wrote: »

Vitali was 4-2 ahead and this is a fact.

I wouldn't doubt you.

I didn't bother to check on-line. Personally I always thought Vitali was ahead but after debating the issue for many years on various forums, I could not recall the official score.

cowzerp

Yeah all judges had it 4 rd to 2 to vitali.
To me vitali was just an improved version of Lewis with more killer instinct.

walshb

Still a very close affair no matter what the official scores read. I had Vitali ahead. No way Lewis was ahead, but he was closing and staying with Vitali all the way.

Rodin

sxt wrote: »

When was his prime though? Do you think he would have beat a prime Vitali or Ali , or Bowe , or Foreman?

Absolutely. Nobody could have lived with him

Rodin

gene_tunney wrote: »

Tyson's level of opposition was decent. It's just that when he got to the top level he was beaten (Holyfield, Lewis).

Tyson fought Lewis a full 16 years after he first became world champion. He was clearly a shadow of his former self.

The question will always be, who is/was the best fighter AT THEIR PEAK. Tyson all the way for me.

barney4001

for my tuppence worth I think a prime Ali or Foreman were the best around over the years

byronbay2

cowzerp wrote: »

Yeah all judges had it 4 rd to 2 to vitali.
To me vitali was just an improved version of Lewis with more killer instinct.

All 3 judges had Vitali ahead when the fight was stopped but that does not tell the full story. Klitchko dominated the first 3 rounds and caught Lewis with a solid shot in the second that looked for a few seconds like it would lead to a KO. However, Lewis gradually got into gear, drew the 4th and imo won the 5th and 6th. He was well on top when the fight was stopped, albeit behind on the scorecards.

unknown13

repsol wrote: »

Tyson in his prime would annihilate Lewis and the rest.The Tyson that lost against Lewis and Holyfield etc was a shadow of Tyson at his peak,thanks to Don King,his ex wife and all the entourage of scrotes who lived off him.

Nonsense. Lewis would still beat him. Lewis was such a brilliant and clever fighter. A prime Tyson wouldn't beat Lewis, he would certainly do better than he did against Lewis in the fight they had.

walshb

unknown13 wrote: »

Nonsense. Lewis would still beat him. Lewis was such a brilliant and clever fighter. A prime Tyson wouldn't beat Lewis, he would certainly do better than he did against Lewis in the fight they had.

It is not at all nonsense. Tyson from 2002 was an absolute shell. Tyson from 1996 was also well past his prime. 4 years inside. It may be a bit too confident to think (for certain) that a peak Tyson annihilates the best Lewis, but it's not nonsense to think that Tyson could beat him.

Prime Lewis would be hell for anyone. I just think that Prime Tyson would find that jaw with a clean shot. I don't trust Lewis's chin here. The same way I don't trust it vs. a prime Foreman. Lewis with a chin may well have been the best HW ever. Lewis hasn't got a glass chin, but one cannot look past the two heavy KO losses. He was caught clean and he dropped badly. Now, even alert and on form, Tyson surely can whack him clean, and Tyson was a hell of a finisher, as well as a more deadly all around hitter than slob like Rahamn.

cowzerp

unknown13 wrote: »

Nonsense. Lewis would still beat him. Lewis was such a brilliant and clever fighter. A prime Tyson wouldn't beat Lewis, he would certainly do better than he did against Lewis in the fight they had.

I'd pick peak Tyson over Lewis, Lewis been proper Ko'd twice the main reason-Tyson to me is 1 of my favourite Boxers ever but in reality not 1 of the best ever, on his day he was ferocious but in reality never beat anybody who would be considered a great, and when he lost to Evander he lost to another washed up man who had been banned from Boxing for having a dodgy heart-Evander was simply the better tougher man as he always would have been.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

I'd pick peak Tyson over Lewis, Lewis been proper Ko'd twice the main reason-Tyson to me is 1 of my favourite Boxers ever but in reality not 1 of the best ever, on his day he was ferocious but in reality never beat anybody who would be considered a great, .

But one could say that about your man, Vitali. Who did he beat that was great?

The best can only beat what is front of them.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

But one could say that about your man, Vitali. Who did he beat that was great?

The best can only beat what is front of them.

That's true, and Tyson lost to any great he ever faced-Vitali would bash Tyson, either way.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

That's true, and Tyson lost to any great he ever faced-Vitali would bash Tyson, either way.

Peak to peak I say it's a hell of a fight. No way Vitali bashes him. No man came close to bashing a peak Tyson. Yes, after prison and 1996 onwards he suffered. Who wouldn't?

Gauss

cowzerp wrote: »

That's true, and Tyson lost to any great he ever faced-Vitali would bash Tyson, either way.

You can't really use that as an argument as that version of Tyson was a different man altogether.

walshb

Gauss wrote: »

You can't really use that as an argument as that version of Tyson was a different man altogether.

My point exactly. 1996 when Mike lost to a great. And that great was himself past his best.

cowzerp

Gauss wrote: »

You can't really use that as an argument as that version of Tyson was a different man altogether.

Look if you have power and aggression you can beat average boxers easily-In the 1st half of his career he fought lot's of handbags(that includes the top ranked lads back then)in The worst weight division ever bar Marciano's, He lost to a very average Buster Douglas.

walshb

If the Tokyo prepared Douglas was around today he'd wipe out the division. Vitali would be a tough one, as would Wlad. But he'd be too good for the rest from what I have seen.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

If the Tokyo prepared Douglas was around today he'd wipe out the division. Vitali would be a tough one, as would Wlad. But he'd be too good for the rest from what I have seen.

Vitali and Wlad would whip him very easily, Wiping out the division is crazy talk-The division is not that bad, the best 2 are just a different class.

1 day people will cop onto this.

unknown13

A Prime Tyson definitely has a shot against Lewis and yes, Lewis's losses were by KO but even though Rahman did KO him, Lewis brutally KO'ed him in the rematch. I think Lewis with Manny in his corner keeps the fight at long range for most of the fight and picks up the decision win.

Rodin

Tyson's peak really only lasted 3-4 years.

When he fought Douglas, he'd already lost that hungry sharpness that Cus Damato instilled in him, and he was well under Don King's influence by that stage. He admitted himself he barely prepared for the Douglas fight.

The Davestator

cowzerp wrote: »

That's true, and Tyson lost to any great he ever faced-Vitali would bash Tyson, either way.

Tyson would have the klits beaten before he got into the ring. They're up there with fraudley in terms of not liking a good fight!
The klits have reigned over the WORST era in the history of HW boxing. Not their fault but neither can be considered great.

That's a fact.

T-K-O

The Davestator wrote: »

Tyson would have the klits beaten before he got into the ring. They're up there with fraudley in terms of not liking a good fight!
The klits have reigned over the WORST era in the history of HW boxing. Not their fault but neither can be considered great.

That's a fact.

This could be true for Wlad, Tyson could very well intimidate the guy before they entered the ring. Vitali is a different kettle of fish

cowzerp

The Davestator wrote: »

Tyson would have the klits beaten before he got into the ring. They're up there with fraudley in terms of not liking a good fight!
The klits have reigned over the WORST era in the history of HW boxing. Not their fault but neither can be considered great.

That's a fact.

You do know what a Fact is yeah!

Vitali has a great chin, and has guts and determination, he'd easy beat Mike, Wlad has potential to be knocked out but again his skills are off the chain, owl Mike would be in with a chance there.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

You do know what a Fact is yeah!

Vitali has a great chin, and has guts and determination, he'd easy beat Mike, Wlad has potential to be knocked out but again his skills are off the chain, owl Mike would be in with a chance there.

I have no issue with anyone picking Vitali over Mike, but how is it easy? We are talking a prime Vitali AND a prime Tyson? Nobody ever had it easy vs. Mike at prime. Vitali won't either. Look at all Mike's strong points. Speed, fast fete, power, chin, stamina, comno speed, killer instinct. Vitali won't find Mike an easy win. Look over Vitalis' career. He never fought a fighter like Tyson, and never showed me he could easily beat a Tyson like fighter. Vitali isn't going to jab Mike to a points win. Tyson will get inside and will land clean, and often.

BTW, I really think Wlad would be beaten. Give him a solid beard, and a real fighter's heart and he could win. He won't take Mike's clean power shots. No way.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

He never fought a fighter like Tyson, and never showed me he could easily beat a Tyson like fighter. Vitali isn't going to jab Mike to a points win.

No and i agree, He'd knock him out, Tysons come forward style would be a bad thing for him and he would eat many many punches to try land anything-Vitali can take Tysons power and this i have no doubt so Tyson needs to land Combo's and this won't happen, Vitali hits as hard as any and as seen as Tyson would take a lot it would be a bad night for him, Personally i would not be surprised to see him quit on his stool.