Best heavyweight boxers from 60/70's vs 90/00's ?

sxt

I think the 90's /00 's have learnt us that if are extremely talented and extremely dedicated in the sporting realm of heavyweight boxing and you are 6 ft 5 plus and 240 ilbs plus , you can be a dominant world champion

It is hard to think that there there will ever be an dominant heavy weight boxing world champion unless they are in this category.The standard has been set and will be maintained or improved. It is hard to ignore these statistics.

Does anybody agree with that?

If you think that The boxers from the 60s /70's were more talented or tougher, that is fair enough, but do you think they would have beat the best heavyweight champs of the modern era with their substantial height and weight advantage?

Liston ,Ali , Fraizer , Foreman

Bowe ,Lewis ,Vladamir , Vitali

gene_tunney

sxt wrote: »

I think the 90's /00 's have learnt us that if are extremely talented and extremely dedicated in the sporting realm of heavyweight boxing and you are 6 ft 5 plus and 240 ilbs plus , you can be a dominant world champion

It is hard to think that there there will ever be an dominant heavy weight boxing world champion unless they are in this category.The standard has been set and will be maintained or improved. It is hard to ignore these statistics.

Does anybody agree with that?

If you think that The boxers from the 60s /70's were more talented or tougher, that is fair enough, but do you think they would have beat the best heavyweight camps of the modern era with their substantial height and weight advantage?

Liston ,Ali , Fraizer , Foreman

Bowe ,Lewis ,Vladamir , Vitali

It's pretty hard to make a case for anyone against a prime Lennox Lewis IMO. Yes, Rahman beat him but that was a lucky shot.

Rodin

You can't just leave out Tyson.

sxt

Rodin wrote: »

You can't just leave out Tyson.

His prime was definitely the late 80's

repsol

Tyson in his prime would annihilate Lewis and the rest.The Tyson that lost against Lewis and Holyfield etc was a shadow of Tyson at his peak,thanks to Don King,his ex wife and all the entourage of scrotes who lived off him.

sxt

repsol wrote: »

Tyson in his prime would annihilate Lewis and the rest.The Tyson that lost against Lewis and Holyfield etc was a shadow of Tyson at his peak,thanks to Don King,his ex wife and all the entourage of scrotes who lived off him.

When was his prime though? Do you think he would have beat a prime Vitali or Ali , or Bowe , or Foreman?

repsol

sxt wrote: »

When was his prime though?

He was in his prime when Kevin Rooney was training him before he started making ridiculous money.Watched films of him all the time because I was fighting at the time myself(amateur obviously) and he was unbelievable!They used to call out the combos in numbers and his hand speed was lightweight speed although he was a heavyweight.He destroyed the likes of Berbick and Spinks and made them look like bums even though they were not.Lewis would have beaten those guys but it would have taken him 8 or 9 rounds and they would have looked a lot better against him

Oregano_State

sxt wrote: »

When was his prime though? Do you think he would have beat a prime Vitali?

I think Tyson at his best,with a proper gameplan would have beaten anyone.

If Vitali went toe to toe with him he'd get knocked out in 2 rounds. Maybe one. If Tyson went out all guns blazing and Vitali held him off with his reach and height advantage he could possibly tire him and get a win that way.

But if Tyson was patient, his speed and power would catch Vitali out eventually.

Other sports are heavyweight boxing's worst enemy IMO. In the states, basketball and moreso NFL take all the athletic monsters. UFC and other MMA sports are also dividing up the talent.

The boxing heavyweight division needs a young, new superstar to emerge soon.

sxt

Oregano_State wrote: »

I think Tyson at his best,with a proper gameplan would have beaten anyone.

If Vitali went toe to toe with him he'd get knocked out in 2 rounds. Maybe one. If Tyson went out all guns blazing and Vitali held him off with his reach and height advantage he could possibly tire him and get a win that way.

But if Tyson was patient, his speed and power would catch Vitali out eventually.

Other sports are heavyweight boxing's worst enemy IMO. In the states, basketball and moreso NFL take all the athletic monsters. UFC and other MMA sports are also dividing up the talent.

The boxing heavyweight division needs a young, new superstar to emerge soon.

Vitali would not only be holding Tyson off with his reach and height and weight advantage , he would be hitting him with accurate and heavy weight punches

Oregano_State

sxt wrote: »

Vitali would not only be holding Tyson off with his reach and height and weight advantage , he would be hitting him with accurate and heavy weight punches

You obviously have your opinion, but Tyson annihilated many boxers much taller than him.

I'd be willing to bet that Tyson punched harder than Vitali.

byronbay2

I don't think you can place Tyson in the all-time top rank of boxers. Certainly he was a fearsome "beast" when he arrived on the scene as a teenager, with amazing hand and head speed and frightening power but he basically beat a series of mediocre boxers (most of whom were paralysed with fear) that were beaten before they even entered the ring. When he finally faced a proper boxer (Holyfield) who didn't fear him, he couldn't cope with a battle and we know what happened next!
Of the modern boxers mentioned, Lewis was undoubtedly the best - a wonderful athlete and a technically excellent boxer in his prime. He was the undisputed champion and also retired at the right time, as so few boxers do. I certainly wouldn't give Bowe or either Klitchko brother (lumbering giants imo) any chance against him.
Overall though, I would have to take Ali and Foreman as superior, with Ali as the greatest of all. Not only was he a peerless technical boxer, the thing that set Ali apart was his ability to take horrific punishment and keep going - he's paying the price now, of course. I don't believe that any other boxer who ever lived could have taken the beating Foreman dished up in the first 5 rounds of their "Rumble In The Jungle" without being KOed. I also believe that, if Ali had not been around, Foreman would have been the undisputed world champion for 10 years or more and be universally recognised as the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time.

repsol

Oregano_State wrote: »

You obviously have your opinion, but Tyson annihilated many boxers much taller than him.

I'd be willing to bet that Tyson punched harder than Vitali.

I have seen dead people with better head movement than the Klitchkos. When a muppet like David Haye can get into the top rankings,you know heavyweight boxing is in big trouble!Can you imagine him in with Foreman/Frazier/Tyson or Liston at their peak? Start the ambulance!

sxt

Oregano_State wrote: »

You obviously have your opinion, but Tyson annihilated many boxers much taller than him.

I'd be willing to bet that Tyson punched harder than Vitali.

Tyson was a hard hitting speed merchant , his power was generated from getting in close and using his exceptional speed to volley multiple punches. Vitali and Vladamir klitschko punch alot harder than Tyson, they use their skill and extreme physical advantage to demoralise their opponents.

sxt

repsol wrote: »

I have seen dead people with better head movement than the Klitchkos. When a muppet like David Haye can get into the top rankings,you know heavyweight boxing is in big trouble!Can you imagine him in with Foreman/Frazier/Tyson or Liston at their peak? Start the ambulance!

If Vitali and Sonny Liston were to fight 1000 times , Vitali would win 1000 times.

repsol

sxt wrote: »

Tyson was a hard hitting speed merchant , his power was generated from getting in close and using his exceptional speed to volley multiple punches. Vitali and Vladamir klitschko punch alot harder than Tyson, they use their skill and extreme physical advantage to demoralise their opponents.

Every boxer generates power in the same way,its the results that differ.Tyson had unbelievable timing,accuracy,technique and skill as well as power.If punching power was only based on size/strength we would see power lifters winning belts.Really heavy handed fighters can knock someone out with a punch that may only travel a very short distance

sxt

repsol wrote: »

Every boxer generates power in the same way,its the results that differ.Tyson had unbelievable timing,accuracy,technique and skill as well as power.If punching power was only based on size/strength we would see power lifters winning belts.Really heavy handed fighters can knock someone out with a punch that may only travel a very short distance

Tyson was a force of nature when he came on the scene , his speed and power of combination was immense. He was 5 foot 11 and 30 ilbs lighter than the klitschkos though. It amazes me when people ,forget their jab , the accuracy of their punches , their power , their reach , height , weight advantages, and that they are extremely intelligent boxers and experienced fighters . Prime Vitali and prime Vladamir are in the absolute driving seat here, all day long ! !

Jayob10

Seems there are alot of Tyson fans in here.

"Tyson fans" are a bit like U2 fans. They say U2 fans know shag all about music outside of U2.

Tyson was indeed a force of nature, who burnt the candle at both ends. he looked phenomenal in his early contender days/days as champ.

When the level was stepped up gradually, Tyson hit a road block. Natural talent is simply not enough against those with talent and commitment.

Tyson also had a streak of quit in him when the going got really really tough.

gene_tunney

Tyson was a true great......against cans.

pitythefool

sxt wrote: »

I think the 90's /00 's have learnt us that if are extremely talented and extremely dedicated in the sporting realm of heavyweight boxing and you are 6 ft 5 plus and 240 ilbs plus , you can be a dominant world champion

It is hard to think that there there will ever be an dominant heavy weight boxing world champion unless they are in this category.The standard has been set and will be maintained or improved. It is hard to ignore these statistics.

Does anybody agree with that?

If you think that The boxers from the 60s /70's were more talented or tougher, that is fair enough, but do you think they would have beat the best heavyweight champs of the modern era with their substantial height and weight advantage?

Liston ,Ali , Fraizer , Foreman

Bowe ,Lewis ,Vladamir , Vitali

Tyson?

walshb

pitythefool wrote: »

Tyson?

On their absolute best nights Tyson had the potential/skills/tools to beat all of them.

walshb

One can diss Tyson post prison or even post Rooney, but when he was on form, committed and with Rooney in the corner he was a menace. No way any man has a comfortable night against him. No way. He could lose to an Ali or Foreman, but he would be hell for both. I personally think that he beats Foreman. Too much speed/power. Ali beats Tyson in a hell of a close match.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

Tyson was a true great......against cans.

And apart from Ali, name me a HW champ who had such a great level of opposition? They all can only fight who is in their era. I would back a peak Tyson to clean out the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s. I think a peak Tyosn beats all Ali's victims. Frazier and Foreman being real threats. I would back a peak Tyson to wipe out any Klit victim.

gene_tunney

walshb wrote: »

And apart from Ali, name me a HW champ who had such a great. level of opposition? They all can only fight who is in their era.

Tyson's level of opposition was decent. It's just that when he got to the top level he was beaten (Holyfield, Lewis).

walshb

Jayob10 wrote: »

Seems there are alot of Tyson fans in here.

"Tyson fans" are a bit like U2 fans. They say U2 fans know shag all about music outside of U2.

Tyson was indeed a force of nature, who burnt the candle at both ends. he looked phenomenal in his early contender days/days as champ.

When the level was stepped up gradually, Tyson hit a road block. Natural talent is simply not enough against those with talent and commitment.

Tyson also had a streak of quit in him when the going got really really tough.

His opp level was not stepped up gradually. He met and beat the top ranked HW men when he was the champ. No gradual increase. He then went to prison for almost 4 years. He was done by then. Prison prevented the big Holyfield showdown. Buster had prevented it in 1990.

gene_tunney

walshb wrote: »

One can diss Tyson post prison or even post Rooney, but when he was on form, committed and with Rooney in the corner he was a menace. No way any man has a comfortable night against him. No way. He could lose to an Ali or Foreman, but he would be hell for both. I personally think that he beats Foreman. Too much speed/power. Ali beats Tyson in a hell of a close match.

Prime Tyson beats Ali easily IMO, within first 6 rounds anyway.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

Tyson's level of opposition was decent. It's just that when he got to the top level he was beaten (Holyfield, Lewis).

And please don't forget that the Holyfield loss was 1996 after he was incarcerated for almost 4 years. Don't even mention the Lewis loss. That's like me dissing Ali for losing to Spinks. A bit of perspective is seriously needed.

Lewis at peak vs. Mike at peak? I got Tyson by KO.

I also think Mike at peak would have been too much for Holyfield at peak.

gene_tunney

walshb wrote: »

And please don't forget that the Holyfield loss was 1996 after he was incarcerated for almost 4 years. Don't even mention the Lewis loss. That's like me dissing Ali for losing to Spinks. A bit of perspective is seriously needed.

Lewis at peak vs. Mike at peak? I got Tyson by KO.

I also think Mike at peak would have been too much for Holyfield at peak.

I think Buster Douglas would have been too much for a peak Tyson....oh wait

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

Prime Tyson beats Ali easily IMO, within first 6 rounds anyway.

Saying this would lead many to think that you rate Mike very highly at peak. Do you?

gene_tunney

walshb wrote: »

Saying this would lead many to think that you rate Mike very highly at peak. Do you?

Yes, I do.

byronbay2

walshb wrote: »

Lewis at peak vs. Mike at peak? I got Tyson by KO.

I didn't come on here to diss Tyson or big-up Lewis but the Tyson-appreciation society here is a bit OTT.
First things first: Tyson was never a proper heavyweight to begin with. Built like a brick sh*thouse, yes, but 5' 11" - my hole! My friend has a picture taken with Tyson, where he is at least 2 inches taller - my friend is 5' 11". Even Holyfield was looking down at Tyson!
Tyson beat some big men but nobody of the calibre of Lewis/Foreman. A big man (Buster Douglas) beat him convincingly when supposedly at his peak. Tyson, peak or otherwise, would imo have no chance against the huge men (Lewis was a genuine 6' 5") previously mentioned - proper heavyweights but also athletes and excellent boxers.
On another issue, I don't see how anyone could rate the Klitchkos above Lewis. In his last fight, well past his best, Lewis accounted for a peak Vitali in 6 rounds, albeit on a TKO due to a cut.

walshb

byronbay2 wrote: »

I didn't come on here to diss Tyson or big-up Lewis but the Tyson-appreciation society here is a bit OTT.
First things first: Tyson was never a proper heavyweight to begin with. Built like a brick sh*thouse, yes, but 5' 11" - my hole! My friend has a picture taken with Tyson, where he is at least 2 inches taller - my friend is 5' 11". Even Holyfield was looking down at Tyson!
Tyson beat some big men but nobody of the calibre of Lewis/Foreman. A big man (Buster Douglas) beat him convincingly when supposedly at his peak. Tyson, peak or otherwise, would imo have no chance against the huge men (Lewis was a genuine 6' 5") previously mentioned - proper heavyweights but also athletes and excellent boxers.
On another issue, I don't see how anyone could rate the Klitchkos above Lewis. In his last fight, well past his best, Lewis accounted for a peak Vitali in 6 rounds, albeit on a TKO due to a cut.

The same Douglas who quit vs. Tucker who Mike went on to beat convincingly. Tucker was a big dude. Bonecrusher too. Ruddock too. Tyson beat plenty of HW men. He was a HW. He was 218 lbs. Yes, he was short. And? Not a SHW, but big enough and heavy handed enough to KO Lewis. BTW, did you forget that Lewis was clean Ko'd twice? By men not near as deadly as a peak Tyson.

This has nothing to do with Tyson OTT appreciation. It's pointing out facts.