Risk to life, including suicide?

HellFireClub

Piliger wrote: »

Yet I do not agree with this at all. I see no difference whatsoever. None. Potential is a worthless and meaningless concept in this issue, imho.

I don't agree. There is an enormous difference between erring on the side of caution, and the fundamentalist absolutism that is applied by the Catholic view and the anti Women's Choice view.

I believe that erring on the side of caution is the basis of the UK system and they have a very good balance in place that we should echo.

I think that comment is central to how we see things extremely differently. If I was to accept your view in totality, I'd have to accept that Nelson Mandela was probably better off having been aborted on the basis that his mother reckoned he may well end being a nuisance, in the absence of his father who was in jail, and therefore his ultimate contribution to politics ought to have been automatically negated by virtue of his political lineage or his circumstances of the day, on the casual pleadings of his expectant mother.

The same argument could be made to ground an abortion for any expectant Irish woman today, who found that in years of old, she would have been grateful to bear a child in a kind of poverty, but in the completely fúcked up world that is 2012, maybe she got her means tested dole or medical card stopped and now wishes to have an abortion.

This is where the pro-abortion on demand community would seem to run into serious trouble with the whole notion of the "potential" of a human, whether born or unborn...

Apparently Michael Collins mother struggled to bring her children up, all I can say is that thank Christ she was not living in our self obsessed day and age.

iptba

eviltwin wrote: »

I can just about live with paying for the people who are at least raising the child and doing the hard work that involves but when I have to sacrifice something for my own children so I can pay for the scumbag down the street who walks away becasue he or she can't be arsed then I get angry.

So do you think that abortions should only be available privately, or, similarly, the cost billed to those who available of the service?

HellFireClub

Piliger wrote: »

Except a foetus is not a human life.

A woman has a right to control her own body and what grows in it. She has a right to have anything inside it removed if she wishes. Otherwise she has no rights over her own body - one of the most fundamental human right possible.

You've actually managed to convert me to your view tonight. It is of course an absolute right for a woman to have complete control over her body. If she is pregnant and wants to abort a pregnancy, up to the moment of pregnancy, for an reason or for no reason at all, I fully agree that a woman should have, and be immediately granted, that right, without question.

However, as a male who could, by virtue of his gender and his orientation, ultimately find himself to be a be party to such a situation and such an arbitrary and selfish remedy, without any consultation, information, or input, I would urge any man to be extremely careful of ending up in such a situation with any woman who has these kind of arbitrary and absolute views on the termination of a life (or potential for life), that you may have conceived.

Piliger

HellFireClub wrote: »

You've actually managed to convert me to your view tonight. It is of course an absolute right for a woman to have complete control over her body. If she is pregnant and wants to abort a pregnancy, up to the moment of pregnancy, for an reason or for no reason at all, I fully agree that a woman should have, and be immediately granted, that right, without question.

Very amusing :rolleyes: .. except of course the most obvious part ... which is that this is not my view at all, as stated clearly in a previous comment.

However, as a male who could, by virtue of his gender and his orientation, ultimately find himself to be a be party to such a situation and such an arbitrary and selfish remedy, without any consultation, information, or input, I would urge any man to be extremely careful of ending up in such a situation with any woman who has these kind of arbitrary and absolute views on the termination of a life (or potential for life), that you may have conceived.

I actually agree with that

blacklilly

Piliger wrote: »

Yet I do not agree with this at all. I see no difference whatsoever. None. Potential is a worthless and meaningless concept in this issue, imho.

I don't agree. There is an enormous difference between erring on the side of caution, and the fundamentalist absolutism that is applied by the Catholic view and the anti Women's Choice view.

I believe that erring on the side of caution is the basis of the UK system and they have a very good balance in place that we should echo.

In 2005 a baby boy in Manchester was born alive at 24 weeks after surviving three attempts to abort him. He is now a seven-year-old schoolboy.
Would you honestly want this echoed? You do know what a 20 wk or 24 wk fetus looks like? No doubting it is human , how anyone can think it humane to abort at this stage in pregnancy( and still be so determined in their pro choice view)is utterly beyond me. It is clearly not only your body.
Surely even those who are pro-choice feel some discomfort with this.

Piliger

blacklilly wrote: »

In 2005 a baby boy in Manchester was born alive at 24 weeks after surviving three attempts to abort him. He is now a seven-year-old schoolboy. Would you honestly want this echoed? You do know what a 20 wk or 24 wk fetus looks like?

My small cousin has a doll that looks exactly like a new born baby. That doesn't make it a new born baby. What it looks like is irrelevant to me and irrelevant to the issue.

No doubting it is human , how anyone can think it humane to abort at this stage in pregnancy( and still be so determined in their pro choice view)is utterly beyond me.

It is sad indeed but your inability to get your head around it is your problem. 24 weeks is a very acceptable boundary in my view.

Surely even those who are pro-choice feel some discomfort with this.

You rally cannot grasp people disagreeing with you.

RDM_83 again

Do you have a reason for the 24 weeks or is it just because its the UK status quo (and as i pointed out quite late in comparison with other countries). And though there is an argument that not many abortions take place between 20-24 weeks they can still occur, and any apparent extra strictures are slightly meaningless in a system that a year ago undercover reporters were able to demonstrate a gross disregard for the law.

LeeHoffmann

wants to abort a pregnancy, up to the moment of pregnancy,

I don´t get what you´re all talking about here. What does this mean? How does somebody abort a pregnancy before the moment of pregnancy?

That´s not just aimed at you HFC as other poster seem to understand what you mean by this

blacklilly

Piliger wrote: »

My small cousin has a doll that looks exactly like a new born baby. That doesn't make it a new born baby. What it looks like is irrelevant to me and irrelevant to the issue.
It is sad indeed but your inability to get your head around it is your problem. 24 weeks is a very acceptable boundary in my view.

You rally cannot grasp people disagreeing with you.

Well now pilger, plenty of people disagree with me and I've no problem with that, I just find it sad and tbh inhumane that you agree that a fetus at 20-24weeks is very "child" like and yet you've no issue with it being torn apart.

Again the above is my opinion but why would you stop at 24 weeks? That's a valid question, does your conscience tell you that it is wrong after this limit and if so, why?

LeeHoffmann

seeing as this thread is basically a debate on abortion now...
I´m not 100% sure where I stand. I want to give women the option in case they´re in desperate circumstances but the timing issue bothers me. For me, 24 weeks is way too late. I read recently that the brain only begins to form at week 4/5/6 and that the neurological system is well developed by week 9 (so the fetus could feel pain at that point). I think when there´s no brain, there´s no personality and no pain so I´d be in favour of legalising abortion up to at least week 4 but I think at a max of week 7/8.

HellFireClub

Piliger wrote: »

My small cousin has a doll that looks exactly like a new born baby. That doesn't make it a new born baby.

Does the doll your referring to have a human heartbeat and an actual human brain???

HellFireClub

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I don´t get what you´re all talking about here. What does this mean? How does somebody abort a pregnancy before the moment of pregnancy?

That´s not just aimed at you HFC as other poster seem to understand what you mean by this

Apologies, I meant up to the point of the due date for the pregnancy or up until the natural end of the pregnancy...

LeeHoffmann

thanks for clarifying

iptba

If a father is going to be allowed waive their rights and responsibilities, ideally I think this should be a few weeks before whatever deadline is set for abortion.

LeeHoffmann

^ why, iptba? because it might affect the mother´s decision on whether or not to have an abortion/keep the child?

iptba

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

^ why, iptba? because it might affect the mother´s decision on whether or not to have an abortion/keep the child?

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

HellFireClub

iptba wrote: »

If a father is going to be allowed waive their rights and responsibilities, ideally I think this should be a few weeks before whatever deadline is set for abortion.

I just don't get what is so completely broken with our society these days where anyone has it in their head these days that responsibilities can just be walked away from. This notion of giving a father to be, some kind of a "get even" legislative option, to somehow try to balance out the lack of a call that he gets to have in relation to the birth of the child, (which is completely the call of the mother whether she proceeds with the pregnancy or has it terminated), it all sounds seriously fúcked up and actually pointless.

If a girl decides to terminate and the guy wants to be a father, no amount of legislation that gives him the option to walk away, will be of any consolation to him.

I do think its maybe time we sat down with ourselves and had a serious talk about the kind of society we really want to live in.

We are now living in an age where kids as young as 12 are committing suicide, women are saying they need abortion in case they feel like committing suicide, I genuinely think it's about time we started testing the water or something in this country...

iptba

HellFireClub wrote: »

I just don't get what is so completely broken with our society these days where anyone has it in their head these days that responsibilities can just be walked away from. This notion of giving a father to be, some kind of a "get even" legislative option, to somehow try to balance out the lack of a call that he gets to have in relation to the birth of the child, (which is completely the call of the mother whether she proceeds with the pregnancy or has it terminated), it all sounds seriously fúcked up and actually pointless.

I'm confused by what you are saying. I thought you thought abortion shouldn't be available? Have you suddenly changed your mind?

ETA: But it would certainly be a significant change, depending on how strict or otherwise the criteria were. But things change. Contraception changed behaviour. Other things could also. Who knows, perhaps there would lead to less casual sex (something many men might not like).

LeeHoffmann

We are now living in an age where kids as young as 12 are committing suicide

...and getting pregnant

HellFireClub

iptba wrote: »

I'm confused by what you are saying. I thought you thought abortion shouldn't be available? Have you suddenly changed your mind?

As you can see from my posts, I'm anti-abortion or anti-choice or am whatever label gets put on someone with my views on the subject. But as things currently stand, the fact is that a woman can be pregnant, decide not to proceed with the pregnancy and travel for a termination in the UK. I think we will see abortion clinics in Ireland within 12 months because that's what the majority of people are asking for.

I obviously completely disagree with it but I am a realist and I've stated previously that if people have my views on the subject, then it really does fall to themselves to be more careful with who they end up with when it comes to this very emotive subject. I think too many people look to the constitution or legislation for their answers on this whole debate, the answer is really to be found in the choices you make I think. Any girlfriend I've ever had has had similar views to me on this subject, so if a pregnancy arose, we'd have found a way to deal with that, without the nuclear & horrifying option of abortion having to be availed of.

I might just add, the girlfriends I had in the past, would have been every bit as repulsed at the idea of an abortion as I would have been, and there was nothing extreme or "religious" about them. I have to also say, my mates have views that wouldn't be radically different to mine, most of them being very grateful fathers themselves at this stage...

LeeHoffmann

the answer is really to be found in the choices you make I think.

+1

my mates wouldn't have views that wouldn't be radically different to mine

The double neg makes it confusticating . I think what you´ve actually said is that their views would be different to yours (if their views wouldn´t be radically different then they´d be similar to yours. If they wouldn´t have similar views then their views would be different to yours). Is that what you meant to say?

iptba

HellFireClub wrote: »

As you can see from my posts, I'm anti-abortion or anti-choice or am whatever label gets put on someone with my views on the subject. But as things currently stand, the fact is that a woman can be pregnant, decide not to proceed with the pregnancy and travel for a termination in the UK. I think we will see abortion clinics in Ireland within 12 months because that's what the majority of people are asking for.

I obviously completely disagree with it but I am a realist and I've stated previously that if people have my views on the subject, then it really does fall to themselves to be more careful with who they end up with when it comes to this very emotive subject. I think too many people look to the constitution or legislation for their answers on this whole debate, the answer is really to be found in the choices you make I think. Any girlfriend I've ever had has had similar views to me on this subject, so if a pregnancy arose, we'd have found a way to deal with that, without the nuclear & horrifying option of abortion having to be availed of.

I might just add, the girlfriends I had in the past, would have been every bit as repulsed at the idea of an abortion as I would have been, and there was nothing extreme or "religious" about them. I have to also say, my mates wouldn't have views that wouldn't be radically different to mine, most of them being very grateful fathers themselves at this stage...

That's fair enough. You sound like a responsible person.

Personally, I don't have strong views either way on abortion - I can see why both groups would be passionate about their views.

Not sure if you saw what I added: such rules might lead to less casual sex. This could lead to fewer abortions in total. I wasn't suggesting that a man would have the right to order an abortion.

HellFireClub

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

+1
The double neg makes it confusticating. I think what you´ve actually said is that their views would be different to yours (if their views wouldn´t be radically different then they´d be similar to yours. If they wouldn´t have similar views then their views would be different to yours). Is that what you meant to say?

Apologies, just corrected that in my post!

iptba

One of the reasons I'm interested in this idea of fathers being able to revoke rights and responsibilities (don't know if it is really feasible or not) is that it isn't simply during pregnancy that the mother has all the say; after birth, unmarried and separated fathers have few rights, or at least that can be the case de facto if no action is taken if the mother ignores any rulings.

Society seems happy to treat men as objects/sources of pay packets.

blacklilly

iptba wrote: »

One of the reasons I'm interested in this idea of fathers being able to revoke rights and responsibilities (don't know if it is really feasible or not) is that it isn't simply during pregnancy that the mother has all the say; after birth, unmarried and separated fathers have few rights, or at least that can be the case de facto if no action is taken if the mother ignores any rulings.

Society seems happy to give men as objects/sources of pay packets.

Unless a father is married to the mother, he has very few legal rights.

It struck me looking at the pro choice marches just how many men were present and got me thinking. These men obviously believe that if a woman was carrying their child they would be in complete support of her choice, thus excluding any of their own choice on the matter. Now as a woman I'm all for equality but this doesnt seem equal and totally ignores any rights of the father.

HFC is absolutely correct in what he says regarding ensuring when you enter a relationship you are both on the same page. many people don't tend to discuss these issues until an unplanned pregnancy occurs and you could then find yourself in a situation where your opinions don't matter.

HellFireClub

blacklilly wrote: »

HFC is absolutely correct in what he says regarding ensuring when you enter a relationship you are both on the same page. many people don't tend to discuss these issues until an unplanned pregnancy occurs and you could then find yourself in a situation where your opinions don't matter.

It's the one thing I'd get cleared up from a very early stage, but then and again, I'd have had the fairly rare experience of having had to help a male friend through a situation where his partner traveled to the UK to have an abortion without him even knowing about it, and I've had a fairly profound insight into the emotional wreckage that came about as a consequence of that decision that affected him. And the weird thing about that situation was, that I would have thought that my mate would have been maybe in some way supportive of an abortion under the circumstances of the day, but when he was placed in the situation, he was absolutely devastated.

I think if we legislated for a guy to be able to sign away all connections with a baby if born, it would only increase the number of abortions being sought. It could actually as used a kind of controlling lever to pressure a woman into an abortion, "if you have that baby, I'll use that legislation and you'll be all on your own, etc.".

blacklilly

HellFireClub wrote: »

It's the one thing I'd get cleared up from a very early stage, but then and again, I'd have had the fairly rare experience of having had to help a male friend through a situation where his partner traveled to the UK to have an abortion without him even knowing about it, and I've had a fairly profound insight into the emotional wreckage that came about as a consequence of that decision that affected him. And the weird thing about that situation was, that I would have thought that my mate would have been maybe in some way supportive of an abortion under the circumstances of the day, but when he was placed in the situation, he was absolutely devastated.

I think if we legislated for a guy to be able to sign away all connections with a baby if born, it would only increase the number of abortions being sought. It could actually as used a kind of controlling lever to pressure a woman into an abortion, "if you have that baby, I'll use that legislation and you'll be all on your own, etc.".

I agree and I don't believe any such legislation should be brought in, i suppose what I'm trying to angle at is that people tend to call me "anti women" yet some of the comments on this issue are very anti men.

Many women don't consider the impact their choices may have on the father and on wider society in general and indeed only take their own feelings into consideration.

As I said before the majority of my friends are pro choice and a number of them have had abortions, these abortions have not had a positive impact on these women and I would say the abortions have generally had a negative impact on their mental health, why is the impact on mental health after abortion not discussed?

eviltwin

blacklilly wrote: »

I agree and I don't believe any such legislation should be brought in, i suppose what I'm trying to angle at is that people tend to call me "anti women" yet some of the comments on this issue are very anti men.

Many women don't consider the impact their choices may have on the father and on wider society in general and indeed only take their own feelings into consideration.

As I said before the majority of my friends are pro choice and a number of them have had abortions, these abortions have not had a positive impact on these women and I would say the abortions have generally had a negative impact on their mental health, why is the impact on mental health after abortion not discussed?

It is, there is a condition called PAS, whole support groups online dedicated to it. Not everyone has to deal with it though. A lot of women are fine. There is a thread about abortion in the Ladies Lounge and a number of posters have spoken of how they were fine after their abortions.

I had it myself after my own abortion. Took me a long time to realise what was behind it though, it wasn't regret over the abortion itself ( which I always knew and still feel was the right thing to do ), it was the stigma, the fact that there was no real support in making the decision so that feeling of "did we do the right thing", it was the lack of support, the fact that people who I did confide in called me a whole list of horrible names and used it as a form of emotional blackmail, it was the feeling that I couldn't talk about it in case I got into trouble, the fear of being always judged or made to feel I somehow a bad mother or that I didn't deserve my children, the misinformation ie when I was pregnant with my son someone told me not to tell the hospital about the abortion because it might reflect badly on me.

All those feelings I later found out were normal but because I never got crisis pregnancy counselling ( because of the waiting list ) I didn't know that and when I came home there was no post abortion counselling that told me that either. In the end I got it but had to go abroad.

Its taken me a long time to get to a place where I don't feel like a bad person. I was very ill, I tried to take my own life, it wasn't a good place to be but through it all I never once thought "I should have kept the baby". I know now as I did then I made the right choice. I just wish we had been able to have the abortion here, we might have not rushed into it and saved ourselves a lot of mental trauma.

Piliger

blacklilly wrote: »

It struck me looking at the pro choice marches just how many men were present and got me thinking. These men obviously believe that if a woman was carrying their child they would be in complete support of her choice, thus excluding any of their own choice on the matter.

Then your interpretation is deeply flawed. I have marched for Pro Choice. But your point is way off the mark. Men who march for and support Pro Choice are simply supporting the principle of Pro Choice against the Anti Women Laws we have. They are not attaching conditions or removing conditions.

The issues surrounding any implementation of Pro Choice legislation are for another day and not being deal with in a Pro Choice march.

Now as a woman I'm all for equality but this doesnt seem equal and totally ignores any rights of the father.

It may be inconsiderate and selfish and outrageous. But people, like me, who believe in the right of a women over her own body recognise that in the final analysis a women gets to chose. It's not about ignoring a man's rights. It's about Biology. Of course a couple should make decisions together. Of course a women should consult her boy friend or husband. Of course he should get a say. But in the end it is her body and her body alone and she should not have to carry anything inside it that she does not want.

Piliger

blacklilly wrote: »

Many women don't consider the impact their choices may have on the father and on wider society in general and indeed only take their own feelings into consideration.

I am sure many do that indeed. But what does that mean ? That there are some selfish women around ? Hardly a surprise. I think we have to admit, as men, that there are a lot of selfish men around too.

As I said before the majority of my friends are pro choice and a number of them have had abortions, these abortions have not had a positive impact on these women and I would say the abortions have generally had a negative impact on their mental health, why is the impact on mental health after abortion not discussed?

Your points here would be quite fascinating if you turned them around and applied them to pregnancy. What about the negative affect of pregnancy on women's mental health ? what about post natal depression ? and the many many other negative physical health results ?

None of these are grounds for denying a women the basic right of control over her own body.