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HellFireClub wrote: »There's a very simple practical solution to all of this. Just don't get into any sexual activity that would have the potential to end in pregnancy or a termination thereof, with someone who clearly doesn't have the same view of you, whether you be for or against abortion.
Yeah, but people in casual situations aren't going to go, "Hold up, wait, what's your stance on abortion? Pro-choice? Forget it so, I'm not sleeping with you."
I agree with you that far too many "accidents" happen, but I think you're being extremely black & white in your view that "most abortions take place because the people involved were too stupid to use contraception". I'll reiterate what I said already on this - I'd imagine most women who find themselves in that position used contraception, but it was compromised in some way and they took a gamble on not needing the MAP, and lost. Now, yes, in my opinion, that's a fcuking massive (and stupid) gamble to take, but most people genuinely think it will never happen to them. But to suggest that people who find themselves pregnant due to contraceptive naivete should somehow be denied access to abortion as punishment? That just boggles my brain.
Extrapolate that out to people who find themselves with an STI due to engaging in risky/naive sexual behaviour - should they be denied access to treatment for this because "it's their own fault"???0 -
This is a load of BS and just another scare tactic used by the anti women brigade. Abortion on demand does not amount to people having an abortion as a method of contraception. If you knew women who are about to have an abortion or who have had one you would realise that almost NO woman goes through the process of an abortion lightly. Quite the opposite. And it is a nonsense to go around claiming that they do ro they will.
Your ignorance on contraception is equally unbounded. You clearly are ignorant of the number of teenagers who make mistakes, often because of a clueless lack of sex education by their parents and the education system. You are also ignorant to the number of women who become pregnant out of human error in their management of contraception or their partner's and in their human error in their consumption of alcohol.
To label them all as "too scabby or stupid to buy & use contraception" is offensive in the extreme and indicative of the kind of nasty and immoral tactics of the ant women brigade.
I said abortion on demand is a kind of retrospective contraception decision where it is available. If there is a problem with sexual education in schools or amongst teenagers, (I'd argue that there is no problem with education, the problem on most occasions is with too much drinking and people getting into sexual activity that can and will result in pregnancy, where they may not even know the name of the person they are having sex with). But if that is the problem, if I was to accept your view, (and I don't), that there is a problem in this country with basic sex education amongst young people you refer to, (teenagers who you claim make mistakes), how does providing for abortion on demand, solve that gap in education that you claim exists and generates a need for abortion on demand?
It's funny how pro-abortion people like yourself seem to go kind of quiet when asked how you may feel today if your mother decided to have an abortion after you were conceived and on that basis, deprived you of the ability to contribute to the debate in 2012. What would you have to say about such a turn of events, should it have happened???0 -
HellFireClub wrote: »It's funny how pro-abortion people like yourself seem to go kind of quiet when asked how you may feel today if your mother decided to have an abortion after you were conceived and on that basis, deprived you of the ability to contribute to the debate in 2012. What would you have to say about such a turn of events, should it have happened???
What a ridiculous question. He wouldn't feel anything/have anything to say because he never would have existed in the first place.
Are we seriously suggesting that we should consider what aborted embryos *might* have thought about the abortion debate now? In that case, I think I have to bow out.0 -
Yeah, but people in casual situations aren't going to go, "Hold up, wait, what's your stance on abortion? Pro-choice? Forget it so, I'm not sleeping with you."
I agree with you that far too many "accidents" happen, but I think you're being extremely black & white in your view that "most abortions take place because the people involved were too stupid to use contraception". I'll reiterate what I said already on this - I'd imagine most women who find themselves in that position used contraception, but it was compromised in some way and they took a gamble on not needing the MAP, and lost. Now, yes, in my opinion, that's a fcuking massive (and stupid) gamble to take, but most people genuinely think it will never happen to them. But to suggest that people who find themselves pregnant due to contraceptive naivete should somehow be denied access to abortion as punishment? That just boggles my brain.
Extrapolate that out to people who find themselves with an STI due to engaging in risky/naive sexual behaviour - should they be denied access to treatment for this because "it's their own fault"???
I'm coming at this from my own particular perspective, which is that I've never done the casual sleeping around thing, I've always been in a relationship when I was having sex and I didn't rush into having sex with a girl I was going out with. This seems to appear strange to you as a girl, a guy having these views and this outlook, which you probably have down as extremely conservative, but I've never been in a position where I wasn't aware of how my respective partner at the time felt, on the subject of abortion.
I did have a friend once who was seeing a girl who didn't want kids, she got pregnant, (they were locked one night and had unprotected sex), she proceeded to have an abortion in the UK and he was devastated because he only found out about it when she got home. It's probably strange for you to absorb this as you have stated that you do not want children, but some men do, and would have a major major problem on several levels, with knowing that they could be in a relationship and that they could have conceived a child with their partner, but the pregnancy could be terminated without them even knowing about it.
Personally as I've said, I don't rely on the constitution, the state, our legislation, the oireachtas, the minister, the HSE, or any other party to protect my interests, should I ever be told I was to become a father, I look to myself and my partner, and I am extremely careful about who I end up with, who I get into a relationship with, to the point where I exercise some prudence and maybe a degree of old fashioned cop on when it comes to these things, no more-so than were basic compatibility comes into it...0 -
What a ridiculous question. He wouldn't feel anything/have anything to say because he never would have existed in the first place.
Are we seriously suggesting that we should consider what aborted embryos *might* have thought about the abortion debate now? In that case, I think I have to bow out.
Exactly, he'd have been killed so on that basis, he wouldn't be around to have an opinion. The same applies to where we abort children in 2012 when we eventually legislate for abortion on demand, are we not allowed to ask the simple & fair question, are we not wrongfully and unethically interfering in the natural process of life, and terminating a viable life for any reason or for no real reason at all, which is exactly what you are advocating? And I ask, what are we displacing in terms of the probable potential for a life, when we allow for that?
You see that's a question that pro-abortion people like yourself just don't want to discuss. You won't discuss the viability of a third party in all of this, and when the views of a potential father come into it, you just scream back, "my body my choice"!0 -
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HellFireClub wrote: »I'm coming at this from my own particular perspective,
And that's fair enough. My own perspective is that I've never had so much as a pregnancy scare because I know full well I don't want children. But you also need to be able to see it from the other perspective - some people take risks and get caught out and no matter how alien that seems to you or I, it's not up to us to deny them the means to correct the situation.HellFireClub wrote: »It's probably strange for you to absorb this as you have stated that you do not want children, but some men do, and would have a major major problem on several levels, with knowing that they could be in a relationship and that they could have conceived a child with their partner, but the pregnancy could be terminated without them even knowing about it.
I've made no secret of the fact that my marriage ended because my husband changed his mind about wanting kids and knew he wasn't going to get them off me. I'm well aware that plenty of men want children. And, tbh, I knew that if I'd ended up pregant, I'd have wanted an abortion, he would have wanted to keep it, and that would have ended the relationship, so I went to great lengths to make sure we were never put in that position. Ironic, really...0 -
HellFireClub wrote: »Exactly, he'd have been killed so on that basis, he wouldn't be around to have an opinion. The same applies to where we abort children in 2012 when we eventually legislate for abortion on demand, are we not allowed to ask the simple & fair question, are we not wrongfully and unethically interfering in the natural process of life, and terminating a viable life for any reason or for no real reason at all, which is exactly what you are advocating? And I ask, what are we displacing in terms of the probable potential for a life, when we allow for that?
You see that's a question that pro-abortion people like yourself just don't want to discuss. You won't discuss the viability of a third party in all of this, and when the views of a potential father come into it, you just scream back, "my body my choice"!
You can't kill someone who wasn't alive and I think, fundamentally, that's where the two sides differ on this issue. I don't see an early-term embryo/foetus as a person, whereas you clearly do. You also seem to think that all these potential lives are gathered in the cosmos somewhere, sentient and with fully-formed opinions on the debate that they're just itching to give us, if someone would only listen to them.
And I'm not screaming at anyone.0 -
You can't kill someone who wasn't alive and I think, fundamentally, that's where the two sides differ on this issue. I don't see an early-term embryo/foetus as a person, whereas you clearly do. You also seem to think that all these potential lives are gathered in the cosmos somewhere, sentient and with fully-formed opinions on the debate that they're just itching to give us, if someone would only listen to them.
And I'm not screaming at anyone.
Well I know one thing, I was once an embryo/foetus and I'm now a 36 year old healthy guy. As far as I was aware, an abortion involves removing what appears to be a pre-mature baby, in bits and pieces, from the womb. So I think when we discuss abortion, we are taking about this, not just a little tic-tac sized collection of living cells. On the most fundamental level, I would not have wanted my mother to have had an option to casually terminate my potential for who I am today, on the basis that she was having a bad hair day or maybe she was just in a pisser the day she found out she was pregnant with me. But this is the kind of conversation that seems to be completely beyond people who are advocating for abortion. All they appear to see is an immediate problem with an immediate solution.
Even your own language, not to overly personalise it, but from reading your views on this thead, you seem to equate pregnancy at any stage of your life, with late stage cancer, as in both would be the end of you? I don't think that that is a rational position to hold, and I don't think we should legislate for irrational positions on pregnancy, at least not where the remedy to the "crisis" is killing the potential for a full and wholesome life, albeit that the intervention to kill is at the very earliest stage.0 -
Because those who campaign under the Anti Women Choice banner also, like the Catholic Church, oppose more comprehensive sex education and Catholics also oppose using contraception across the board. This leads inevitably to more abortions.HellFireClub wrote: »I said abortion on demand is a kind of retrospective contraception decision where it is available. If there is a problem with sexual education in schools or amongst teenagers, (I'd argue that there is no problem with education, the problem on most occasions is with too much drinking and people getting into sexual activity that can and will result in pregnancy, where they may not even know the name of the person they are having sex with). But if that is the problem, if I was to accept your view, (and I don't), that there is a problem in this country with basic sex education amongst young people you refer to, (teenagers who you claim make mistakes), how does providing for abortion on demand, solve that gap in education that you claim exists and generates a need for abortion on demand?
Pro Choice people want a women to have control over her own body. But they also want comprehensive access to sex education, comprehensive access to contraception for all ages and a society where the need for an abortion only arises in the fewest possible situations. That is the view of almost everyone who supports Freedom of Choice.
You are being wholly disingenuous ... where was this question posed that Pro Choice people went 'quiet' ? Please offer references if this claim is to be believed.It's funny how pro-abortion people like yourself seem to go kind of quiet when asked how you may feel today if your mother decided to have an abortion after you were conceived and on that basis, deprived you of the ability to contribute to the debate in 2012. What would you have to say about such a turn of events, should it have happened???
Your question reflects the moral and emotional confusion you suffer from, and most Anti Women campaigners suffer from imho.
Firstly Pro Choice people, like me, do not want more abortions - we want less, as few as possible. If my daughter or my sister or aunt or good friend asked me about the prospect of her having an abortion, I would do everything I could possibly do to persuade her not to have an abortion. I would do everything in my power, including moral and financial and personal support to enable her not to have an abortion. I believe that this would be the view of the vast majority of Pro Choice people. Pro Choice people do not want women to have abortions. However they recognise that in the end, if a women chooses, then it is her right.
Pro Choice people would support fully the implementation of a raft of measures to support women who can be persuaded to continue their pregnancies and adopt, measures to financially support pregnant women and mothers of small children with childcare etc. Pro Choice people are not campaigning for more abortions. Quite the opposite.
If my mother had found herself in a ghastly situation where she felt unable to go through with my pregnancy for reasons that she could not overcome, then I would 100% want her to abort me if that was the only solution available to her. I can imagine no other view, if we really loved our mothers.
Like most Anti Women's Choice people, you continually confuse how you feel about your own morality, with how you want to force other people to adhere to your morality.0 -
I suggest that this is the single most misogynist comment I have encountered in this forum for many a year.HellFireClub wrote: »I would not have wanted my mother to have had an option to casually terminate my potential for who I am today, on the basis that she was having a bad hair day or maybe she was just in a pisser the day she found out she was pregnant with me.
The suggestion that women go through the horror of having an abortion on these bases ... is really an appalling one. It is said that women are other women's worst enemy ... well this just proves it.
Astonishing.0 -
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HellFireClub wrote: »I would not have wanted my mother to have had an option to casually terminate my potential for who I am today, on the basis that she was having a bad hair day or maybe she was just in a pisser the day she found out she was pregnant with me.
That is the single most belittling and insulting thing I have ever heard levelled at women who choose abortion, EVER.HellFireClub wrote: »Even your own language, not to overly personalise it, but from reading your views on this thead, you seem to equate pregnancy at any stage of your life, with late stage cancer, as in both would be the end of you? I don't think that that is a rational position to hold, and I don't think we should legislate for irrational positions on pregnancy, at least not where the remedy to the "crisis" is killing the potential for a full and wholesome life, albeit that the intervention to kill is at the very earliest stage.
I'm not even going to respond to that. My reasons for not wanting children are my own and I don't need to justify them to anyone.0 -
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HellFireClub wrote: »Well I know one thing, I was once an embryo/foetus and I'm now a 36 year old healthy guy. As far as I was aware, an abortion involves removing what appears to be a pre-mature baby, in bits and pieces, from the womb. So I think when we discuss abortion, we are taking about this, not just a little tic-tac sized collection of living cells. On the most fundamental level, I would not have wanted my mother to have had an option to casually terminate my potential for who I am today, on the basis that she was having a bad hair day or maybe she was just in a pisser the day she found out she was pregnant with me. But this is the kind of conversation that seems to be completely beyond people who are advocating for abortion. All they appear to see is an immediate problem with an immediate solution.
Even your own language, not to overly personalise it, but from reading your views on this thead, you seem to equate pregnancy at any stage of your life, with late stage cancer, as in both would be the end of you? I don't think that that is a rational position to hold, and I don't think we should legislate for irrational positions on pregnancy, at least not where the remedy to the "crisis" is killing the potential for a full and wholesome life, albeit that the intervention to kill is at the very earliest stage.
Wow - the complete ignorance you have displayed in the above comment is frankly disgusting.0 -
So why can't this apply to men? Is it that people think a woman's life is more important than a man's?
I'm speaking specifically about the current "concerns" about legislating specifically for the X case, under the auspices of which, it wouldn't really matter if the man is suicidal, because he's not the one seeking and potentially being denied an abortion that could save his life. Basically, taking the X case on its own, the man's life doesn't even come into it.
Moving away from X, in general terms, I've no doubt that a man could feel suicidal at the thoughts of becoming a father. But I have absolutely no idea how you could legislate for that. Allowing him to legally abdicate all legal responsibility for the child seems like the obvious answer, but how would it work in practice? How long does he have to decide? 25 weeks, same as the cut-off for abortion? Can he change his mind at a later date? And how would the situation work in reverse? What if he's threatening suicide because his partner wants a termination and he wants to have the baby? How do you legislate for that? Force her to carry the baby to term and then hand it over to him? Because then we're back to forcing women to act as incubators for babies that they don't want, and frankly, the thought of that frightens the living sh*t out of me.0 -
That is the single most belittling and insulting thing I have ever heard levelled at women who choose abortion, EVER.
I'm not even going to respond to that. My reasons for not wanting children are my own and I don't need to justify them to anyone.
But you're pro abortion, to the point where you appear to be anti-children in any form. If you are going to get into a public discussion on that, then it's fair enough that inferences are going to be drawn from what you say in terms of commentary. You've already stated on thread that you believe that it is sufficient for a woman to mutter the words, "I'm suicidal", for the purposes of being able to procure an abortion. You've clearly stated on thread that you don't even think an explanation should be sought nor provided in relation to a woman having to explain why she might require an abortion.
That would all be fine by me if the process being sought was not the termination of a human life, with arms, legs, fingers and a head. As I previously stated, and as you are in denial about, if that same decision was made in relation to your conception, your lifetime on this planet and all that you enjoyed in it, would have been coldly snuffed out, for any reason, or for no reason at all, pursuant to the demands for abortion that you are making.
It's the potential for human life that I believe we need to have more respect for, not as you try to claim, the life in itself which I accept has not started out fully on its journey. Your view would appear to be that you just don't want kids, you have stated that you have some kind of a problem with children, I've no problem with you having that view, but I think it is just too much of an ask of society to demand that we legislate for abortion on demand for people with those kind of completely irrational views of children.0 -
I suggest that this is the single most misogynist comment I have encountered in this forum for many a year.
The suggestion that women go through the horror of having an abortion on these bases ... is really an appalling one. It is said that women are other women's worst enemy ... well this just proves it.
Astonishing.
I personally know of three women who had their respective abortions for the following reasons:
(1) She didn't like the father and was afraid the child would look like him. Funny how it didn't stop her sleeping with him at the time.
(2) The second girl was afraid what her mother would think as it was the result of a casual encounter. This girl nearly caused the suicide of the father (who was a close friend of mine), after he learned he could have been a father only that she went for an abortion without telling him and only told him afterward she had the abortion, these two were a couple at the time.
(3) The third girl was told she was lined up for a promotion at work and felt an unplanned pregnancy would undermine her career position. This girl ended up hugely regretting her decision to have an abortion.
Now let's get real here and stop codding ourselves that in all instances, there are a set of really important life altering decisions behind why a lot of Irish women seek out an abortion, because in a lot of cases, these are the kind of flaky reasons that some (not all) women want an abortion. As I said above, I wouldn't have a problem with any of it if the process did not involve taking a perfectly healthy human form with arms, legs and a head and a pulse, apart bit by bit and snuffing out the potential for human life.0 -
HellFireClub wrote: »I personally know of three women who had their respective abortions for the following reasons:
(1) She didn't like the father and was afraid the child would look like him. Funny how it didn't stop her sleeping with him at the time.
(2) The second girl was afraid what her mother would think as it was the result of a casual encounter. This girl nearly caused the suicide of the father after he learned he could have been a father only that she went for an abortion without telling him and only told him afterward she had the abortion, these two were a couple at the time.
(3) The third girl was told she was lined up for a promotion at work and felt an unplanned pregnancy would undermine her career position. This girl ended up hugely regretting her decision to have an abortion.
Did you hear these reasons from the women themselves? Or that one of them regretted it? If not, I'd take them with a pinch of salt, especially if the people you heard them from are biased for some reason.
The third one doesn't even seem that bad. It wasn't the right time in her life, in her own eyes.0 -
Emeraldy Pebbles wrote: »Did you hear these reasons from the women themselves? Or that one of them regretted it? If not, I'd take them with a pinch of salt, especially if the people you heard them from are biased for some reason.
The third one doesn't even seem that bad. It wasn't the right time in her life, in her own eyes.
The cases at (1) and (3) I heard from the horses mouth. The case at (2) I was aware of because the guy involved, who was heartbroken over the decision to terminate, was a close friend of mine.0 -
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HellFireClub wrote: »But you're pro abortion, to the point where you appear to be anti-children in any form.
Find me where she's said in this thread anything remotely anti-children.
Not wanting children yourself for whatever reason doesn't make you "anti-children". So should we force people who don't want children to have babies they don't want?That would all be fine by me if the process being sought was not the termination of a human life, with arms, legs, fingers and a head. As I previously stated, and as you are in denial about, if that same decision was made in relation to your conception, your lifetime on this planet and all that you enjoyed in it, would have been coldly snuffed out, for any reason, or for no reason at all, pursuant to the demands for abortion that you are making.
Oh come on. No, her lifetime on this planet wouldn't have happened. She wouldn't have existed. There is no point in the whole "how would you feel if you were aborted?" argument. You wouldn't have existed to have an opinion on it.
I'm still not sure how I feel about abortion, but honestly reading your posts would push me closer to pro-choice.0 -
KamiKazeKitten wrote: »Find me where she's said in this thread anything remotely anti-children.
Not wanting children yourself for whatever reason doesn't make you "anti-children".
Oh come on. No, her lifetime on this planet wouldn't have happened. She wouldn't have existed. There is no point in the whole "how would you feel if you were aborted?" argument. You wouldn't have existed to have an opinion on it.
I'm still not sure how I feel about abortion, but honestly reading your posts would push me closer to pro-choice.
It couldn't be clearer from her posts that she has some kind of a serious issue with children, maybe a fairer description of her previous posts would be that she has a serious issue with her having children herself. The vast majority of women (that I know), are not going around harbouring these fairly unusual views on motherhood, yet we are being told that this is what we have to legislate for now.
Her extreme views on abortion, I have to completely disagree with, because she conveniently avoids acknowledging that in all of this, there is always a father figure involved in the conception, who in my own experience, I have seen in one case, a man (a close friend of mine), suicidal after finding out that his partner had traveled for an abortion without even telling him she was pregnant. This was done as she was afraid she would be talked into having the baby and that if that happened, her mother would judge her harshly because the mother was not aware that there was an early stage relationship going on, as far as the mother was aware, her daughter was single. Seriously, in 2012, are these the kind of reasons that we want to allow access to abortion for?
There is also the convenient dismissal of the potential to recognise in any way, a full and wholesome human life to emerge from a foteus with arms, legs, a head and a heartbeat. As I said before, often just before a termination, we are not talking about a tic-tac sized collection of human cells here, we are talking about a living human form with all the recognisable features of a new born baby. Killing that, for what in my experience have been seriously questionable reasons, is just not right.
If people don't ever want to get pregnant, for whatever reasons of their own, there are simple surgical procedures to achieve that without having to provide access to abortion.
When it comes to pro-abortion people, all I ever hear is the very same argument, "it's all about me me me me me"...0 -
HellFireClub wrote: »It couldn't be clearer from her posts that she has some kind of a serious issue with children, maybe a fairer description of her previous posts would be that she has a serious issue with her having children herself. The vast majority of women (that I know), are not going around harbouring these fairly unusual views on motherhood, yet we are being told that this is what we have to legislate for now.
What does that have to do with the debate though? Maybe she doesn't want to spend 18+ years minding them, maybe she prefers the personal freedom without them, maybe she just doesn't like kids. Hell, maybe she thinks they'd ruin her figure or something. It's irrelevant, people should not have to have children they don't want.Her extreme views on abortion, I have to completely disagree with, because she conveniently avoids acknowledging that in all of this, there is always a father figure involved in the conception, who in my own experience, I have seen in one case, a man (a close friend of mine), suicidal after finding out that his partner had traveled for an abortion without even telling him she was pregnant. This was done as she was afraid she would be talked into having the baby and that if that happened, her mother would judge her harshly because the mother was not aware that there was an early stage relationship going on, as far as the mother was aware, her daughter was single. Seriously, in 2012, are these the kind of reasons that we want to allow access to abortion for?
And it is tough on the men, I agree, and I have a lot of sympathy for your friend.
But how do you realistically legislate for that? The 92 referendum has been and gone, women have free travel. Should we line them up at the airports, make them take a lie detector test for their reasons why they want an abortion and then say "oh you can go...and you....not you, that's much too shallow."
You can't hold someone prisoner in the country to give birth to a baby they don't want, no matter what you think of their reason for aborting.
I think unfortunately it's not something you can fairly legislate for, biology gets in the way and until we can remove the foetus and incubate it, there's no way around that.There is also the convenient dismissal of the potential to recognise in any way, a full and wholesome human life to emerge from a foteus with arms, legs, a head and a heartbeat. As I said before, often just before a termination, we are not talking about a tic-tac sized collection of human cells here, we are talking about a living human form with all the recognisable features of a new born baby. Killing that, for what in my experience have been seriously questionable reasons, is just not right.
And yes this is where my issues with abortion lie - what stage is too developed to abort? It's a big grey area imo.If people don't ever want to get pregnant, for whatever reasons of their own, there are simple surgical procedures to achieve that without having to provide access to abortion.
Hysterectomies? IIRC there are not many doctors in Ireland keen to give them to women, in case they change their minds.
So what does that leave us with, contraception? Not 100% effective even when it's used properly.When it comes to pro-abortion people, all I ever hear is the very same argument, "it's all about me me me me me"...
Yes, being able to control your own body.
Terrible, that.0 -
KamiKazeKitten wrote: »What does that have to do with the debate though? Maybe she doesn't want to spend 18+ years minding them, maybe she prefers the personal freedom without them, maybe she just doesn't like kids. Hell, maybe she thinks they'd ruin her figure or something. It's irrelevant, people should not have to have children they don't want.
Because there are other methods of dealing with not wanting to, or a clear determination not to get pregnant, than having to legislate for abortion on demand. I know one woman who got this done:
http://thinkcontraception.ie/Contraception-Choices/Female-Sterilisation.112.1.aspx
In any event, the vast majority of women I know, do not have these strange views on childbearing or pregnancy or having children in general.
If you don't want children, then maybe try not getting pregnant, and if you do, maybe be mature enough and have enough courage to stand by the consequences of your actions, when the alternative is to intervene in what sounds to me to be an absolutely horrific and barbaric way of "resolving" a problem.
I don't see the solution as being a checkpoint in the airport with a lie detector station as you suggest, as I've previously said on thread, and I refer to my friend who went through the heartbreak of his child aborted without his knowledge, the only way a guy can really protect himself from this kind of modern day "I'll do whatever the fúck I want/my body my choice" mentality, is to use some old fashioned common sense and before you get into a relationship with someone, be sure you are on some kind of solid ground (insofar as someone can be sure about anything these days), with regard to how your partner feels on the subject of abortion, because I've personally seen someone get this tragically wrong and he really struggled to cope with it on every possible level when a woman did exercise her choice to do whatever she wanted, (and I do agree that women today have this absolute right to choose).
As I said before, the answer isn't always in the constitution or the law or some medical regulation, it's often in your own head and the choices you make in your life.0 -
The topic of this thread is: should prospective fathers be allowed to abdicate parental rights and responsibilities if abortion becomes legal in Ireland? It´s not about whether women should have abortions or not. I think this has gone off topic and it´s getting altogether too personal and offensive0
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The whole 'don't have sex if you're not prepared to deal with the consequences' line is extremely unhelpful as no contraception is 100% effective. You can be acting responsibly AND still fall pregnant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods
Also, for those who believe life begins at conception - what is your stance then on contraceptives that may also be abortifacients? Are you of the belief that we should ban the morning after pill, IUD, etc.?0 -
LeeHoffmann wrote: »The topic of this thread is: should prospective fathers be allowed to abdicate parental rights and responsibilities if abortion becomes legal in Ireland? It´s not about whether women should have abortions or not. I think this has gone off topic and it´s getting altogether too personal and offensive
It's not really gone off topic and the subject is clearly one that people have personal views on. Rather than coming up with a process whereby a father can completely and permanently abdicate his responsibilities as a father, I don't think there are any problems here that cannot be resolved by people exercising some common sense and personal responsibility for their actions.
It seems to be something that we have completely lost as a nation, the simple notion that sometimes difficult or at times, less than ideal consequences can often follow our actions. Maybe because technology now allows us to in some way reverse decisions in an apparently sanitised and "harmless" way, no matter how odd, unsavory or downright sick the method, I think we have become nearly fully numbed to even discussing the smallest or simplest ethical question that might dare get in the way of us being able to undo the consequences of actions that we take and doing whatever the fúck we want with our lives.
But instead of giving fathers the right to walk away from their actions on paper, I'd suggest maybe looking at how people can start being a bit more conservative, or even wise, with regard to their sexual activity, insofar as the birds and the bees as we currently understand them, which is that a woman will get pregnant at some stage if sex is unprotected, and that we will soon have abortion on demand in Ireland, probably within 12 months and the industry will follow the legislation, so all I'm saying is that with all that in mind, maybe it's time for guys anyway, to start thinking a bit more about what they are doing, how they are doing it, and who they are doing it with, instead of giving guys a right to sign away their responsibilities as suggested in the OP.0 -
Indeed. Me me me me sums up what Human Rights are all about, and why we need to give Women their Human Rights in Ireland.KamiKazeKitten wrote: »Yes, being able to control your own body.
Terrible, that.
On the other hand the Anti Choice only want THEIR morality adhered to, only THEIR values adhered to ....... it's all about them them them ....... ironic really.0 -
The whole 'don't have sex if you're not prepared to deal with the consequences' line is extremely unhelpful as no contraception is 100% effective. You can be acting responsibly AND still fall pregnant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods
Also, for those who believe life begins at conception - what is your stance then on contraceptives that may also be abortifacients? Are you of the belief that we should ban the morning after pill, IUD, etc.?
Surprise surprise, if you have sex you "could" get pregnant. Maybe that "acting responsibility" phrase you are borrowing there, could actually be interpreted by some people, to into the realm of "Jasus I might be having a baby"... Just because we "can" do something, (like provide abortion on demand services), it doesn't automatically follow, in my opinion, that it is therefore the right thing to automatically provide.
I keep saying it, the solution is not in law or in the constitution, the answer to all of this is for people who do not want children and who are open to having an abortion or who are open and accepting of the provision for abortion for any reason or no reason at all, to make sure that they avoid the possibility of pregnancy or conception with those who have a substantially different view on the same subject.
I don't care if we have abortion on demand in this country, even though I completely disagree with it, I will only care if it ever were to directly affect me, in terms of how I could get left with having an emotional shít hemorrhage to deal with if a girl I was with, decided to abort a child I had conceived.
The avoidance of that scenario for me, to my mind, rests with me & the choices I make in life, particularly with regard to who I have a relationship with, not with someone else.0 -
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Indeed. Me me me me sums up what Human Rights are all about, and why we need to give Women their Human Rights in Ireland.
On the other hand the Anti Choice only want THEIR morality adhered to, only THEIR values adhered to ....... it's all about them them them ....... ironic really.
Yet again, the complete aversion to the fact that it is not just as simple or straightforward as accommodating one person, not where someone else has conceived a child, someone who could be left suicidal by an abortion, and another completely innocent third party is now introduced into the equation.
Yet again, the avoidance of any ethical eye contact on the subject of cutting a child like human form/foetus with arms, legs, head and a pulse, out of another human being.0
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