How would you handle this situation?

LegacyUser

ibarelycare wrote: »

OP what does your children's father have to say about this situation?

You said that your children said "I don't know" when you asked them why your sister's bf was in their bedroom. Did you leave it at that? Did you ask them if he was interacting with them in any way, if he just walked in and stood there? Or what? It seems strange that you would ask them why he was in their room, they would answer "I don't know" and you would not ask them any further questions.

My DH says 'that he would not have done this, if he were in this guys shoes', because of people needing to protect themselves and allowing parents protect their children. He is stumped on this issue also, we both secretly wish they would break up so that we could stop having to dwell on this issue.

Yes, I left it at that at that time, I did not want to make them think that there was any thing wrong by probing too much, as I was unsure myself. They are young and I don't think I would have got a better answer out of them, it was late and they were tired.

LegacyUser

I realise now what I should have done and it would have saved me a lot of stress and heartache. Firstly, my big worry about this, because of the lack of evidence, was labelling this guy or associating him in the wrong with any sort of bad conduct towards my kids, at the same time I was not about to stand around and gather more evidence for my case. I needed him to know I was not happy about him entering the kids room, but was not sure how to go about approaching this conversation without making him feel absolutely terrible if he acted in innocence. I feel the conversation I should have had with him, and will have is this: 'That I as a parent need to protect my children and though I know you entered the room in absolute innocence, you as an adult need to help me to protect my kids and you also need to protect yourself. I love the good relationship you and my sis have with my children and I don't want to damage that, but we need to have an understanding that there is a important need for me to make sure my kids are safe and for you to keep yourself safe too.'
I would hope he would understand my position and realise that I am verbalising this not out of any hysteria, but out of a need for practicality. Thanks for your posts, it has really helped me straighten things out in my head.

Neyite

OP, I read your thread shortly before bedtime. Initially, I admit I wrote you off as over-reacting, that its a terrible thing to think of someone and that you really had no proof as such to accuse anyone and told myself I'd write you a nicely post along those lines in the morning.

But, during the course of the night -feeding a baby, I thought some more about it and I wasn't so sure that was the right thing to say either. Its easy to tell you that you have no proof that this man is a pedophile, and that you cant say it out aloud. But, as parents, do we wait for proof? do we wait until our children are hurt in such a way it can have lifelong reprecussions? do we err on the side of politeness even when our instinct is howling at us due to social convention at the expense of our childrens' innocence? but then, if we dont wait, are we written off as hysterical mammies, and further alienating good male role models in our childrens lives because they also fear that even a benign interest in children will be seen as perverted?

Its a catch 22. Its a massively damaging accusation to brand someone without proof, but when the proof occurs, its already too late and children have been affected.

And you don't have proof here OP. What you have is a mother's instinct that something is, well, off. I believe in instinct when it comes to my child. If my instinct is telling me that my child is sicker than a GP thinks, I have no bones about going to A&E for another opinion. But your instinct could be wrong too, and you will have ripped this family apart if you say it to your sister - he potentially may be around in your sisters life for many years to come. An accusation like that simply does not get forgotten.

If you ask him what he was doing in the children's bedroom, he probably has a plausible explanation - either because he is entirely innocent or because he is a pedophile with a good cover story - you are none the wiser. If you voice your suspicions to your sister, she WILL tell him, maybe your parents and all hell will break loose. We don't want to believe that the people we love are like that. He may not be like that - he may be a man who is blissfully unaware that other men are careful to be seen as appropriate around children, and would be horrified if it happened to a child he knew.

Child abuse is a fear of mine OP, as I had a "funny uncle" situation (not really an uncle more a distant relative referred to as an uncle) as a child. My mother, acting on her instinct from an innocent remark from me (despite Dad thinking she was over-reacting) discovered it before anything sinister happened to me. So, I see where you are coming from. But I also see that you could severley affect this mans life if you are wrong and he is simply oblivious to child abuse dangers.

There are age-appropriate books that I remember my mother getting - they were colouring books where you coloured in good touches and bad touches, when its good for a child to keep a secret, when its not, etc. It explained to a child without explaining if you know what I mean. I dont know where you would get them - maybe ISPCC might be a starting point to obtain the right way to educate your girls without shattering their innocence.

Other than that, personally this is what I would do - you see this man rarely. Minimise but don't cut out the visits entirely. And when you do visit, you and your husband work it between the two of you to always have one of you with a watchful eye- one of you sober while the other has a drink. A baby monitor (one that makes a sound when its switched off in the bedroom eg. Angelcare is one that makes a crackling sound on the receiver when switched off) if you are in the sitting room. Maybe even you and your husband take a child each into your beds for the night.

I would contact the ISPCC if I were you OP. They will have resources that can help you, and offer advice - I guarantee that you are not the first to approach them with nothing more than instinct about someone in the family.

username123

What Im failing to compute on this whole thread is why you did not, when you saw him coming out of the childrens room, ask him what he was doing in there and make it extremely clear that he is not welcome to go into your childrens bedrooms.

Although I would not be assuming that he is a sexual predator just based on what you have posted.

Big Bag of Chips

OP, at the end of the day you have to do what you feel is right. But if you honestly feel that this man is a threat to your children then you need to speak up. Have you other nieces and nephews? Does he have contact with them?

I'm not saying that he is a danger to anyone, but if you feel strongly enough that you are considering cutting off all contact with your sister until your children are adults then you really should tell other members of your family your fears. And allow them to make their own decisions too.

They may agree with you, and all tackle it as a family. Or they may be able to allay your fears a bit and help you to relax more about him.

Either way you can't bury your head and hope it goes away (or that they break up).

Edit: By the way - my 5 year old daughter has her future husband picked out since she was 3! And my very shy, very introvert 6 year old arrived home from school last week asking me how do you know when you're 'in-love' (it seems he is!) I would have thought 4 and 6 much too young for crushes, apparently not!

LegacyUser

Neyite wrote: »

OP, I read your thread shortly before bedtime. Initially, I admit I wrote you off as over-reacting, that its a terrible thing to think of someone and that you really had no proof as such to accuse anyone and told myself I'd write you a nicely post along those lines in the morning.

But, during the course of the night -feeding a baby, I thought some more about it and I wasn't so sure that was the right thing to say either. Its easy to tell you that you have no proof that this man is a pedophile, and that you cant say it out aloud. But, as parents, do we wait for proof? do we wait until our children are hurt in such a way it can have lifelong reprecussions? do we err on the side of politeness even when our instinct is howling at us due to social convention at the expense of our childrens' innocence? but then, if we dont wait, are we written off as hysterical mammies, and further alienating good male role models in our childrens lives because they also fear that even a benign interest in children will be seen as perverted?

Its a catch 22. Its a massively damaging accusation to brand someone without proof, but when the proof occurs, its already too late and children have been affected.

And you don't have proof here OP. What you have is a mother's instinct that something is, well, off. I believe in instinct when it comes to my child. If my instinct is telling me that my child is sicker than a GP thinks, I have no bones about going to A&E for another opinion. But your instinct could be wrong too, and you will have ripped this family apart if you say it to your sister - he potentially may be around in your sisters life for many years to come. An accusation like that simply does not get forgotten.

If you ask him what he was doing in the children's bedroom, he probably has a plausible explanation - either because he is entirely innocent or because he is a pedophile with a good cover story - you are none the wiser. If you voice your suspicions to your sister, she WILL tell him, maybe your parents and all hell will break loose. We don't want to believe that the people we love are like that. He may not be like that - he may be a man who is blissfully unaware that other men are careful to be seen as appropriate around children, and would be horrified if it happened to a child he knew.

Child abuse is a fear of mine OP, as I had a "funny uncle" situation (not really an uncle more a distant relative referred to as an uncle) as a child. My mother, acting on her instinct from an innocent remark from me (despite Dad thinking she was over-reacting) discovered it before anything sinister happened to me. So, I see where you are coming from. But I also see that you could severley affect this mans life if you are wrong and he is simply oblivious to child abuse dangers.

There are age-appropriate books that I remember my mother getting - they were colouring books where you coloured in good touches and bad touches, when its good for a child to keep a secret, when its not, etc. It explained to a child without explaining if you know what I mean. I dont know where you would get them - maybe ISPCC might be a starting point to obtain the right way to educate your girls without shattering their innocence.

Other than that, personally this is what I would do - you see this man rarely. Minimise but don't cut out the visits entirely. And when you do visit, you and your husband work it between the two of you to always have one of you with a watchful eye- one of you sober while the other has a drink. A baby monitor (one that makes a sound when its switched off in the bedroom eg. Angelcare is one that makes a crackling sound on the receiver when switched off) if you are in the sitting room. Maybe even you and your husband take a child each into your beds for the night.

I would contact the ISPCC if I were you OP. They will have resources that can help you, and offer advice - I guarantee that you are not the first to approach them with nothing more than instinct about someone in the family.

Very helpful post. Thanks.

iusedtoknow

You know...my favourite guy in the whole world when I was growing up was my much older sisters boyfriend. (there was 20 years between us, and her boyfriend was another 3 years older on top that that.

Whenever he was over at our place he would alway nip into my room for a "goodnight champ". My sister would babysit us every so often, we'd sleep over and Mike would watch us if the sister had to go out for whatever reason. He'd be the one that would take us down to the park and push a little higher than needed on the swings, a little faster than needed on the roundabout.
I was a nervous kid growing up, and sometimes i would sit awkwardly in the room when I was first getting to know him.

There was never a sniff of anything funny about it, even though he was an only child and didn't have a lot of experience with kids. I read this topic and actually spoke to my mum about it, and asked if she ever felt anything like you feel. She said that if she went through life raising 6 kids thinking that everyone wanted to harm us, she'd never have accomplished anything with her days.

He is still one of my favourite guys in the world and the father of my nephews and nieces.

The only child-molester that has ever been involved in my life is my 4th class teacher, who did 4 years in Kildare for what he did (not to me).

Your kids could be awkward around him because they only see him every so often and you could be depriving them of a very positive role model.
Tread carefully, unless you have proof - you could very possibly ruin this guys life (personally with your sister and in the community, (mud like this sticks) and be perpetuating the idea that every guy that is nice to kids is a potential molester.

LegacyUser

iusedtoknow wrote: »

You know...my favourite guy in the whole world when I was growing up was my much older sisters boyfriend. (there was 20 years between us, and her boyfriend was another 3 years older on top that that.

Whenever he was over at our place he would alway nip into my room for a "goodnight champ". My sister would babysit us every so often, we'd sleep over and Mike would watch us if the sister had to go out for whatever reason. He'd be the one that would take us down to the park and push a little higher than needed on the swings, a little faster than needed on the roundabout.
I was a nervous kid growing up, and sometimes i would sit awkwardly in the room when I was first getting to know him.

There was never a sniff of anything funny about it, even though he was an only child and didn't have a lot of experience with kids. I read this topic and actually spoke to my mum about it, and asked if she ever felt anything like you feel. She said that if she went through life raising 6 kids thinking that everyone wanted to harm us, she'd never have accomplished anything with her days.

He is still one of my favourite guys in the world and the father of my nephews and nieces.

The only child-molester that has ever been involved in my life is my 4th class teacher, who did 4 years in Kildare for what he did (not to me).

Your kids could be awkward around him because they only see him every so often and you could be depriving them of a very positive role model.
Tread carefully, unless you have proof - you could very possibly ruin this guys life (personally with your sister and in the community, (mud like this sticks) and be perpetuating the idea that every guy that is nice to kids is a potential molester.

You are an individual and one of the lucky ones and so was I and there was 9 of us, but I remember my Dad wouldn't let me go swimming with a guy who offered to take me and my friend to the public swimming pool and her Mom had said it was OK, she wouldn't go without me, I was mad with my Dad at the time.
Have you heard of the Savy Report, one of the authors on the Vincent Browne show a few years ago describe child sexual abuse as been epidemic in this country and in light of that I am not about to take changes with my children's lives. I want to take precautions and nobody has to get hurt.

LegacyUser

guest123456789 wrote: »

and in light of that I am not about to take changes with my children's lives. I want to take precautions and nobody has to get hurt.

Fine, don't take chances. Take precautions. BUT, approached in the wrong manner, someone will get hurt here. Either you, your husband, your sister, or your sisters' boyfriend. Of course your childrens' safety must take priority over other peoples' feelings, but equally you don't need a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
What does need to happen, in the current absence of concrete evidence, is that you approach this guy with your husband, explain that you like him from what you know of him, however you are uncomfortable with him entering your childrens' room- or indeed ANY room of the house (so as not to directly infer that he is a child abuser) at nighttime with neither your knowledge or consent. These are the ground rules for someone being in your home. There needs to be an OPEN AND HONEST conversation between you, your husband, and this guy. Who knows, there may be a- strange!- explanation behind it all. If not, well then you've marked his cards. Get on with it.

CaraMay

I think op the best course of action for you going forward is to be straight up and if you dont like something then say it out. I cant understand why you didnt question him when he was coming out of the kids room or afterwards. Likewise, why did you not ask your kids for more detail.

There is no point letting your thoughts run off days or weeks after the event. you need to strike while the iron is hot in future.

LegacyUser

there is a man at my sons school who i dont feel right about either. he is a little too familer with the kids (just a little) and like that i just have a 'feeling' i have seen him touch my sons face when he thought he was alone and he also was sitting extremly close to an uncomfortable looking child at a party.
i am not sure if he is just a little odd but not a peodophile, and sadly it means i dont encourage a friendship between his son and my son but i am not taking any chances.
finally i agree with your husband (and my husband), because of the currant cilmate men are unfortunatly having to be very careful the way they interact with children so they should be more careful about touching/being alone with children who are not family etc. (why would a man at school need to touch my sons face, and your sis boyfriend has only met the kids a few times)
GO WITH YOUR GUT always.

LegacyUser

I would like to make an important conclusion from all the replies I have read a number of times and because this is such an important issue.

Since I posted this thread, I have been called irrational and hysterical. But, I would like to point out that hysteria can lean on the other side too, where people are so fearful of someone being called a paedophile in the wrong, the suggestion is 'to give him the benefit of the doubt', or you don't have enough evidence, you need more evidence (gathering evidence is not an option).

So on one side you have the danger of somebody being labelled a paedophile in the wrong (which is a terrible thing and should never happen to anybody) and because of that, parents are at a loss to dealing with behaviour that make them feel uneasy.

So the guidelines for dealing with suspicious behaviour as outlined in above posts:
Let people who enter your house know without drama, that all bedrooms are out of bounds, especially when children are in bed to sleep, it's their quite time.

If a person does something that you are not comfortable with, question them immediately 'while the iron is hot'. Nobody has time to think, so should get a honest response.

If your children are being invited somewhere for a play date and you don't know the people, but the kids are friends. You can say they won't go without you.

It is important to build up trust with people you are trusting your children to.

The guidelines for adults (men and women) dealing with children:

You have to allow the parents to keep the children safe and help them in doing so.

Be natural, have a laugh with kids, they love that and nobody wants to damage that.

But don't be alone with them unless this is OK with the parents.

Can anyone improve on this?

Neyite

guest123456789 wrote: »

So the guidelines for dealing with suspicious behaviour as outlined in above posts:
Let people who enter your house know without drama, that all bedrooms are out of bounds, especially when children are in bed to sleep, it's their quite time.

If a person does something that you are not comfortable with, question them immediately 'while the iron is hot'. Nobody has time to think, so should get a honest response.

If your children are being invited somewhere for a play date and you don't know the people, but the kids are friends. You can say they won't go without you.

It is important to build up trust with people you are trusting your children to.

The guidelines for adults (men and women) dealing with children:

You have to allow the parents to keep the children safe and help them in doing so.

Be natural, have a laugh with kids, they love that and nobody wants to damage that.

But don't be alone with them unless this is OK with the parents.

Can anyone improve on this?

I would add that a parent research age-appropriate material that educates children without shattering their innocence that if an adult makes them feel uneasy, or wants them to keep secrets etc how to verbalise that to their parents,. Children dont have the vocabulary at their age to explain what grooming or abuse is, but they do get vibes the same as the rest of us from overly-interested adults.

P. Breathnach

guest123456789 wrote: »

...
So the guidelines for dealing with suspicious behaviour as outlined in above posts:
Let people who enter your house know without drama, that all bedrooms are out of bounds, especially when children are in bed to sleep, it's their quite time.

If a person does something that you are not comfortable with, question them immediately 'while the iron is hot'. Nobody has time to think, so should get a honest response.
...

I'm not convinced that an immediate challenge would flush out an honest response if you are dealing with a real predator. From what I have read (I'm fortunate not to have experience of the problem) people who prey on children are often very accomplished liars.

And how do you win back the ground if you have missed taking those steps? That's the position you find yourself in. I suggest that you do not deal with it, because your position has already been weakened by not reacting immediately. Get your husband to speak to him along the lines of "My wife told me that you popped into the children's bedroom to talk to them. We would prefer that you didn't do that sort of thing because we want them to have boundaries, and we want them to see their bedroom as a space that only they and their parents enter.". Of course he should be attentive to the reaction he gets.

LegacyUser

OP, if it was a woman coming out of your kids room, would you have thought any differently of the situation?

LegacyUser

etsrpons particles wrote: »

OP, if it was a woman coming out of your kids room, would you have thought any differently of the situation?

I wasn't sure whether I should answer this question, because my post was not about whether the person is a man or a women. My post is about how to keep my children safe, when people do things perhaps in innocence that don't allow me that confidence.

But since you asked I did some research that you may be interested in:
Characteristics of Perpetrators and Context of Sexual Violence
• Most perpetrators of child sexual abuse (89 per cent) were men acting alone. Seven per cent of children were abused by one female perpetrator. In 4 per cent of cases more than one abuser was involved in the same incident(s). - Savi Report page xxxv of the Executive Summary. http://www.drcc.ie/about/savi.pdf

Neyite

etsrpons particles & OP, PI is not for discussing hypothetical scenarios - that's taking it off topic. Stick to the issue presented please.

ahnow

Op, alarm bells are ringing. No one, man or woman in this day and age would be caught dead on their own in a childs bedroom in that situation. LISTEN TO YOUR GUT on this. I was abused by someone in the family as a child, it happens much more than you think, I believe its something along the lines of one in three girls and one in four boys. Why is this man putting himself in a childs bedroom? Why is he sitting so close to your child in the sitting room and seeking them out? Do not for the sake of politeness let this go OP, I cannot CANNOT stress this enough. If you have to even just get it out in the open. Tell him straight out that you do not like his behaviour, and tell him in front of others that you would feel more comfortable if he kept an appropriate distance from your children. Then you need to speak to your children. There are ways to tell young children about abuse so as to prevent it, books like "It's OK to say no" etc. do everything possible to prevent this from happening. And yes perhaps he is innocent in all of this. But look at the cost if hes not.

LegacyUser

ahnow wrote: »

Op, alarm bells are ringing. No one, man or woman in this day and age would be caught dead on their own in a childs bedroom in that situation. LISTEN TO YOUR GUT on this. I was abused by someone in the family as a child, it happens much more than you think, I believe its something along the lines of one in three girls and one in four boys. Why is this man putting himself in a childs bedroom? Why is he sitting so close to your child in the sitting room and seeking them out? Do not for the sake of politeness let this go OP, I cannot CANNOT stress this enough. If you have to even just get it out in the open. Tell him straight out that you do not like his behaviour, and tell him in front of others that you would feel more comfortable if he kept an appropriate distance from your children. Then you need to speak to your children. There are ways to tell young children about abuse so as to prevent it, books like "It's OK to say no" etc. do everything possible to prevent this from happening. And yes perhaps he is innocent in all of this. But look at the cost if hes not.

I really appreciate your post. I cannot imagine what you have been through and I am so sorry that, that happened to you. I will do everything in my power to keep my children safe.

I needed to highlight the predicament I found myself in, in hindsight, I think I did not address the bedroom incident out of shock and politeness. I was stopping every urge in me to cry 'what the hell are you doing in there' (this is my gut reaction), because I did not want to seem hysterical(this is my head at work).

I needed to ask myself some questions before I blow this whole thing open. Like, did the kids ask him to pick something up. I asked them 'why he was in there?' and they said 'they did not know', they were old enough to tell me if they had asked him to pick up a teddy or something, but their answer was'I don't know'. Which made me think he went in for no reason and there was no reason to go in as he was as close to them standing in the hallway as going to the effort of entering the room which was not easy to do for a big, tall guy, because of the orientation of the beds. He did not offer an explanation, but felt compelled to exit the room when he heard me coming, he did not speak to me and went back to sitting room. This all could be innocent, but what if it is not?

I remember my sister telling me how a scientist discovered the way electrons worked; he observed people getting onto a bus, they filled up the empty spaces first, before filling the seats next to each other. He was sitting in my child's personal space and she was uncomfortable and as her mother I could read this, I know she did not sit there. She would have been fine with him, if it was her sitting in his space, but not the other way round. My kids jump up on their uncles, granddad etc. but that is usually on their terms and they look comfortable and happy when they do this.

I am not about to call this guy a paedophile, I have no evidence for that, but I want him to know that I am not happy about him being alone with my kids without me knowing and now I don't think I am happy about him being alone with my kids even if I do know. I missed my opportunity to handle this and I wondered if the second incident happened because he thinks I am a stupid or weak mother. Even if the first incident had not occurred I would have thought the second strange anyway, but I am joining the dots, so to speak.

So now how to manage the situation so that nobody gets hurt? I think I will do what one of the posters suggested, asking my husband to speak to him, man to man. That will have a two pronged effect; this is a man telling him that he thinks it was not appropriate, and he will be attentive in future about how he behaves around my kids and any other kids.