Grace - Is there a Deficiency?

doccbh

My own personal observation is that grace does appear to be lacking among Irish women, particularly in recent times, and specifically in the 20-35 year old demographic. While there is no grace quotient (GQ) from which to make any definitive statements or generalizations, how many of you agree there has been a decline, and growing shortage of grace. And why is this occurring?

username123

Yeah, Im particularly ungraceful. Ive had some knee surgeries so my movement is not as fluid as it might be. I cant wear heels and sometimes I walk badly in flats. And to see me playing a sport is like watching a 3 legged dog dance with a cat.

I am graceful in the swimming pool (i think), but thats about it.

my my my

you have obiously never benn to conemara

Morgase

What exactly do you mean by grace?

Links234

I think I'm very graceful in a mosh pit thank you very much!

Lyaiera

Links234 wrote: »

I think I'm very graceful in a mosh pit thank you very much!

Loads of pro moshers have had some ballet training actually. It helps you stay light and fleet of foot in your New Rocks.

Sorcha16

Morgase wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by grace?

Less loud, brash,in-your-face, garish clothed, foul-mouthed and more refined, elegant, mindful representation of oneself in an eloquent but poised manner

Stench Blossoms

Sorcha16 wrote: »

Less loud, brash,in-your-face, garish clothed, foul-mouthed and more refined, elegant, mindful representation of oneself in an eloquent but poised manner

You can rule me out. I'm all of those when I've drink on me.

Lyaiera

To be serious, female grace much like male stoicism are bygones of an old era and I'm glad for that. If someone chooses to be graceful or stoic as a personal philosophy that's wonderful but I don't think either should be expected as a defining element of anyone.

Call Me Jimmy

Lyaiera wrote: »

To be serious, female grace much like male stoicism are bygones of an old era and I'm glad for that. If someone chooses to be graceful or stoic as a personal philosophy that's wonderful but I don't think either should be expected as a defining element of anyone.

I don't know about female grace, but male stoicism hasn't gone anywhere! It's part and parcel still imo.

Lyaiera

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I don't know about female grace, but male stoicism hasn't gone anywhere! It's part and parcel still imo.

Yeah, that's probably wishful thinking. It has lessened though and I think that's a good thing.

Call Me Jimmy

Yea I think the whole binge-drinking imagery of women nowadays is the image that pops to mind for most people in terms of female grace. I'll be honest I don't fully understand 'grace' as it is written in the OP. But I think a lot of women might consider themselves graceful when sober and then not so graceful when drunk. Whereas the stoicism for males is something that is still much more embedded in male culture from young ages and continues to become more entrenched throughout their lives. Once girls get to teen-years they seem to realise the ridiculousness of being pressured to be graceful all the time.

The stoicism has lessened of course, but as a young guy, any signs of emotions still equals gay.

Emeraldy Pebbles

Unclear OP is unclear.

Stheno

Sorcha16 wrote: »

Less loud, brash,in-your-face, garish clothed, foul-mouthed and more refined, elegant, mindful representation of oneself in an eloquent but poised manner

Lyaiera wrote: »

To be serious, female grace much like male stoicism are bygones of an old era and I'm glad for that. If someone chooses to be graceful or stoic as a personal philosophy that's wonderful but I don't think either should be expected as a defining element of anyone.

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Yea I think the whole binge-drinking imagery of women nowadays is the image that pops to mind for most people in terms of female grace. I'll be honest I don't fully understand 'grace' as it is written in the OP. But I think a lot of women might consider themselves graceful when sober and then not so graceful when drunk. Whereas the stoicism for males is something that is still much more embedded in male culture from young ages and continues to become more entrenched throughout their lives. Once girls get to teen-years they seem to realise the ridiculousness of being pressured to be graceful all the time.

The stoicism has lessened of course, but as a young guy, any signs of emotions still equals gay.

I find all of the above very sad. I'd not class it as grace, but graciousness, which to me, means good manners and behaving well.

Now I'm out of the age bracket (I'm 39), but in my very early twenties, I learned to say please and thank you, and to smile at people (I'm one of those people who has a default axe murderer expression when I relax my face)

I learned that my interactions with people improved as a result of those small actions on my part.

Fast forward 15 years, and today i was meeting someone on a business matter in my local cafe bar as it was the most convenient place for us to meet.

My colleague observed my behaviour and would have commented on it were it not appropriate, it's not difficult to be gracious to people serving you and providing what for us was a very convenient and very comfortable environment for a meeting for a couple of hours.

In the OPs case I'd interpret it as manners, and acknowledging and being aware of others, and appreciating them.

I actually find that younger people are more gracious recently, and I've only started observing it recently.

Most folk go out and get drunk and make fools of themselves, that's exempt imo but I look at my OH's children in their early twenties and their behaviour and their friends behaviour, they may be awkward, but they are not graciousless ness.

I believe we live in a very very polite society for the most part. I'm on crutches at the moment, traffic stops when I need to cross the road, people try not to get in my way, shop staff have gone so far as to offer to take my bags to the car!

That is all graciousness imo, and by far the majority of people I'm talking about were under 35


As for stoicism in males, as I work in a primarily male environment, they are just as prones to aches and pains, I've had males bosses ring me on a deadline as they have to pick up their wives, not take calls as they have family time, take time off as their children are sick.

Time to stop believing the stereotypes sometimes?

Lyaiera

I wouldn't consider what you said grace. More just having good manners and being civil. To me grace conjures notions of deferring to your betters with class systems and knowing your place. And stoicism meaning having a stiff upper lip and not burdening people with your troubles. Of course there's a balance between all of this, someone should absolutely know which battles are worth fighting and when and whom to look for for help. It's the idea of defining a philosophy of life on a notion of having grace that's weird to me.

Ellsbells

I am a bit older and hate to see younger girls covered in slap, barely any clothes on them or else plastered into clothes that are way too small for them and falling around the streets drunk. For me that demonstrates a lack of grace.

I also hate when people swear continuosly and as every second word. I feel it makes people seem so crass and I cringe when I hear it.

Eve_Dublin

Would it not be better to look at a definition of grace first?

Definition of GRACE
1
a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b : a virtue coming from God
c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
2
a : approval, favor <stayed in his good graces>
b archaic : mercy, pardon
c : a special favor : privilege <each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage — Rudyard Kipling>
d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency
e : a temporary exemption : reprieve
3
a : a charming or attractive trait or characteristic
b : a pleasing appearance or effect : charm <all the grace of youth — John Buchan>
c : ease and suppleness of movement or bearing
4
—used as a title of address or reference for a duke, a duchess, or an archbishop
5
: a short prayer at a meal asking a blessing or giving thanks
6
plural capitalized : three sister goddesses in Greek mythology who are the givers of charm and beauty
7
: a musical trill, turn, or appoggiatura
8
a : sense of propriety or right <had the grace not to run for elective office — Calvin Trillin>
b : the quality or state of being considerate or thoughtful

I've highlighted the ones that can be applied to everyday life. Why do these traits only apply to women? Thoughtfulness (surely that depends on the individual and not on a demographic set), pleasing appearance (most women I see out and about make an effort to look "pleasing" as do the men), ease of movement (depends on the amount of exercise you get and how naturally bendy you are). They seem pretty multi-gender to me. And no, I haven't noticed a decline in any of these. It differs from person to person and that's how it's always been.

Ellsbells

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Why do these traits only apply to women?

Who said they do? The Op specifically asked about Irish women so people are responding to her original query.

Eve_Dublin

Ellsbells wrote: »

Who said they do? The Op specifically asked about Irish women so people are responding to her original query.

There's really no need to put that underlined AND in bold. It comes off unnecessarily aggressive. No need for it.

Fair enough. I suppose I presumed that because it was only asked of women in a women's forum about Irish women, that it was somehow only something women should possess....otherwise it'd be posted elsewhere I could be wrong though. It's often only associated with women in society and it's not a word applied to men....and I'm asking why that is.

username123

Ellsbells wrote: »

I am a bit older and hate to see younger girls covered in slap, barely any clothes on them or else plastered into clothes that are way too small for them and falling around the streets drunk. For me that demonstrates a lack of grace.

I totally agree on falling around the streets drunk but I totally disagree on fashion choices or make up (not sure why you refer to it as 'slap' unless trying to be deliberately inflammatory by using a term with a negative and aggressive connotation?).

Fashion choices/make up have nothing to do with being graceful. For a lot of women fashion means fitting in. You would hardly expect one young woman to go out make up free in a decorous outfit alongside her friends who are fully made up wearing bang on trend outfits?

Are you female OP?
What age bracket do you fall into?

Eve_Dublin

Are some people equating grace with being ladylike?

ashers22

I assumed Op was male and that the question was asked in the manner of an implication, apologize if I've misread that though.

Am I graceful? like a horse.

username123

ashers22 wrote: »

Am I graceful? like a horse.

Horses are very graceful! Im more, graceful like a 3 legged donkey.

Morgase

Ellsbells wrote: »

I am a bit older and hate to see younger girls covered in slap, barely any clothes on them or else plastered into clothes that are way too small for them and falling around the streets drunk. For me that demonstrates a lack of grace.

I also hate when people swear continuosly and as every second word. I feel it makes people seem so crass and I cringe when I hear it.

I agree with you on the continuously swearing. I want to shake such people and tell them to expand their vocabulary!

But when it comes to young ones putting on too much makeup and scraps of clothes and falling around the place, well, every generation does that. Not all of them, but a good few. I sure did, and then I copped on a bit, like most of them will too.

Sorcha16

Stheno wrote: »

I find all of the above very sad. I'd not class it as grace, but graciousness, which to me, means good manners and behaving well.
Time to stop believing the stereotypes sometimes?

Can you please explain what you find sad about being refined, elegant, eloquent, mindful or poised? Those things aren't "behaving well" and implicit of manners too, no? Also, where did I stereotype anyone?

baby and crumble

In all seriousness though, I am one of those people who had manners and civility bet into me when I was younger- my parents would correct my grammar, my manners, the way I sat at a table, the way I ate my dinner. So I am a bit of a stickler when it comes to acting properly in public. I don't know if that's what the OP meant.

However it's not just women, it's everyone. Manners in many ways have gone completely downhill. I'm not talking about the slightly 'stuffy' etiquette of years gone by, but people who don't have (or use) their basic manners. It baffles me how people will comment on my manners- I don't make a conscious effort to be polite, I think I just am. Maybe parents aren't teaching their children manners as much these days?

On a related note, there is something I have observed which is 'reverse' snobbery. As in, many people now look down on anyone who has the trappings of what would have been 'upper' or 'middle class' manners and mannerisms. I get labelled posh a lot of the time, and it's said in a scathing way tbh.

eviltwin

I have no idea if I am graceful or not, I would probably tick the boxes in the definition Eve put up a few posts back but I wouldn't hold myself in a traditionally graceful way, I can be quite ungainly at times. I don't conduct myself like I went to a finishing school or anything.

But does it really matter? Its hard to be graceful when you are running around after a child or a dog or trying to get your work done to a deadline. I think most of us are just too busy living to really care

cantdecide

username123 wrote: »

You would hardly expect one young woman to go out make up free in a decorous outfit alongside her friends who are fully made up wearing bang on trend outfits?

Why not? There's too much of a pack mentality these days IMO. What's wrong with a little individualism?

baby and crumble wrote: »

On a related note, there is something I have observed which is 'reverse' snobbery.

Sigh....true.

As a male, I think I try to hold a level of dignity as much as possible. It doesn't make me old fashioned or stuffy. It doesn't limit my experience a jot. I just can't understand the need for the masses to actively demonstrate how mad they are all the time. It just seems pointless.

GreeBo

I dont think its grace thats missing, I think its class.

Far too many ladies (and men) have zero class these days, coupled with zero respect for themselves. They dont seem to be embarrassed about their behaviour at all, I guess because they are "all" at it, so no reason to feel any embarrassment.

I think its sad.

Eve_Dublin

Ironically enough, if we look at that photo of Audrey Hepburn up there, she has a far amount of "slap" on herself. Many people consider a woman without makeup on as unladylike (or lacking "grace" using the secret code of this thread) and many professions, although they don't strictly state it, expect it as part of a woman's grooming. Another case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Manners are one thing but acting as a lot of people acted when they were young is another. It's fair to say I made a holy show of myself (usually drunk) in my late teens, early twenties but on the whole, I still had manners and treated people with respect when I went about my business. Isn't that the most important thing? I'm 32 now and don't drink to that extent. It was a period of my life. I moved on like most people do. Not a big deal.

And just from my own experience, one thing I notice when I go home to Ireland is how mannerly people are....of all ages. In stark contrast to people here.

havetoquit

I guess we all define grace in a different way.

To me being graceful is simply a part of the way we present ourselves to others; Graceful is the opposite of uncouth, loud and dressed in a provocative manner. I would not consider a woman who was grossly overweight, wearing the tightest leggings/shortest mini, greasy/untidy hair, the lowest top that shows all her bulges, badly applied coarse make up, walking like a man or wobbling from side to side a graceful person.

I would likewise not consider loutish behavior in a woman, whether drunk or sober to be graceful. Drink is often used as an excuse, but hey, nobody ties us down and holds our noses feeding us alcohol until we no longer know or care where we are or who we are with.

However, it is her choice and just because she may be so ungracefully presented, would not give me the right to judge or stereotype her in any way. Most people would agree that it is the personality and character that matters, but it is just a shame that people who are not graceful often give off the wrong vibes and send alarm bells wringing.

On the other hand there are people who present themselves gracefully, but can have other faults which are not saved by their gracefullness.

None of us are perfect I guess and those who think they are are deluded!

Eve_Dublin

havetoquit wrote: »

I guess we all define grace in a different way.

To me being graceful is simply a part of the way we present ourselves to others; Graceful is the opposite of uncouth, loud and dressed in a provocative manner. I would not consider a woman who was grossly overweight, wearing the tightest leggings/shortest mini, greasy/untidy hair, the lowest top that shows all her bulges, badly applied coarse make up, walking like a man or wobbling from side to side a graceful person.

I would likewise not consider loutish behavior in a woman, whether drunk or sober to be graceful. Drink is often used as an excuse, but hey, nobody ties us down and holds our noses feeding us alcohol until we no longer know or care where we are or who we are with.

However, it is her choice and just because she may be so ungracefully presented, would not give me the right to judge or stereotype her in any way. Most people would agree that it is the personality and character that matters, but it is just a shame that people who are not graceful often give off the wrong vibes and send alarm bells wringing.

On the other hand there are people who present themselves gracefully, but can have other faults which are not saved by their gracefullness.

None of us are perfect I guess and those who think they are are deluded!

Not judgemental? Right. Your post comes across quite judgemental.

Sorcha16

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Not judgemental? Right. Your post comes across quite judgemental.

A fine example of how not to be graceful

jaffacakesyum

I always find it amusing that people care so much about how others dress, act, carry themselves etc. when it has no bearing on their lives whatsoever.

Who cares if some women wear short/tight dresses, slap on way too much makeup and drink a lot and make some noise? If it's not for you, fair enough. But life is too short to be expecting other people to act how YOU want them to, at the expense of their own enjoyment.

cantdecide

havetoquit wrote: »

I guess we all define grace in a different way. To me being graceful is simply a part of the way we present ourselves...

havetoquit wrote: »

On the other hand there are people who present themselves gracefully, but can have other faults which are not saved by their gracefullness. None of us are perfect I guess and those who think they are are deluded!

havetoquit wrote: »

However, it is her choice and just because she may be so ungracefully presented, would not give me the right to judge or stereotype her in any way.

IMO, gracefullness, or as I would define it for both genders, behaving in a dignified manner, is all about approach. Pursuing it is virtually the same as achieving it. It's that easy!

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I always find it amusing that people care so much about how others dress, act, carry themselves etc. when it has no bearing on their lives whatsoever.

I think the OP may be alluding to the current trend of trashiness. It's appears to be fashionable to be trashy and wouldn't it be preferable to be able to hold your head up and be proud of the society you belong to? I've seen tourists literally photograph hoards of trashy dressed teenagers queueing outside a venue in Cork for a teenage disco on a Thursday evening. Welcome to Ireland.

Stheno

Sorcha16 wrote: »

Can you please explain what you find sad about being refined, elegant, eloquent, mindful or poised? Those things aren't "behaving well" and implicit of manners too, no? Also, where did I stereotype anyone?

I think you misinterpreted my post, I found the examples of behaviour I posted sad, not being graceful or gracious

If you read my post, you'll see I posted three quotes of types of behaviour, and my first sentence was that I found them sad.

jaffacakesyum

cantdecide wrote: »

IMO, gracefullness, or as I would define it for both genders, behaving in a dignified manner, is all about approach. Pursuing it is virtually the same as achieving it. It's that easy!



I think the OP may be alluding to the current trend of trashiness. It's appears to be fashionable to be trashy and wouldn't it be preferable to be able to hold your head up and be proud of the society you belong to? I've seen tourists literally photograph hoards of trashy dressed teenagers queueing outside a venue in Cork for a teenage disco on a Thursday evening. Welcome to Ireland.

Haven't seen tourists do that in Dublin anyway. I don't think Ireland is some zoo full of freaks of nature Yeah, on your Saturday night you will have a lot of women dressed/acting trashy. Equally you will have a lot of people not dressed trashy or being loud. You will get that anywhere, not just Ireland.

Personally, I don't surround myself with people who hold traits I do not approve of. So if people don't like women who dress in tight clothing and get drunk and loudmouth, then don't associate with those people.

Sorcha16

Stheno wrote: »

If you read my post, you'll see I posted three quotes of types of behaviour, and my first sentence was that I found them sad.

I don't mean to be pedantic but I assume then you're referring to the behaviour I described in the first part of my post as being sad rather than the latter?

Stheno

Sorcha16 wrote: »

I don't mean to be pedantic but I assume then you're referring to the behaviour I described in the first part of my post as being sad rather than the latter?

Yes.

meeeeh

[Quote/]

I think the OP may be alluding to the current trend of trashiness. It's appears to be fashionable to be trashy and wouldn't it be preferable to be able to hold your head up and be proud of the society you belong to? I've seen tourists literally photograph hoards of trashy dressed teenagers queueing outside a venue in Cork for a teenage disco on a Thursday evening. Welcome to Ireland.[/Quote]

I'm not graceful, I never was. However I blame cheap disposable fashion for a lot you listed there. I don't overly mind trashy dresses if they fit and flatter the figure but orange tan and clothes that don't fit your body type have more to do with the lack of taste than grace. Some people would benefit from buying one pair of decent shoes instead of six pairs of plastic horrors in Penny's and from buying a few less clothing items but the ones they do, should be well made and from decent materials. Plus it's hard to look graceful if you are wearing shoes you can't walk in. And this is not limited just to teenagers, older people can be just as bad. Especially when they think they have the same figure at 35 as they had at 16.

And yes I am judgemental.

Giselle

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not graceful, I never was. However I blame cheap disposable fashion for a lot you listed there. I don't overly mind trashy dresses if they fit and flatter the figure but orange tan and clothes that don't fit your body type have more to do with the lack of taste than grace. Some people would benefit from buying one pair of decent shoes instead of six pairs of plastic horrors in Penny's and from buying a few less clothing items but the ones they do, should be well made and from decent materials. Plus it's hard to look graceful if you are wearing shoes you can't walk in. And this is not limited just to teenagers, older people can be just as bad. Especially when they think they have the same figure at 35 as they had at 16.

And yes I am judgemental.

Clothes help, but they aren't the whole picture. You can wear cheap clothes and still carry yourself with dignity. Conversely you can be dressed expensively but if you don't carry yourself well it won't enhance how you're perceived.

I also think that you can be drunk as a drunken skunk and still deserve respect, BUT its much more difficult to command it.

I think its important to take into account how we're perceived during MOST of our lives, but we can't live ALL of our lives worrying about the opinions of others. Balance is everything.

ashers22

hmm. I'm trying to think of a woman that represents grace to me. I'm not thinking movie stars but agree that's probably where you'd find a lot of elegant and poised imagery of 'sleek and graceful' beautiful women.
That's different though.

I remember the ops last post questioned the male ideal as based on Mitt Romney and I'm just wondering if this is not just another quest to try and define the 'ideal' woman.

I get that some people have greater appreciation for more traditional values but where it might suggest archaic gender conforming principles I feel they would have little value to me.

Grace however is in my mind a timeless quality, it has more to do with treating people with respect and possessing traits that bring out the best in us.

I'm currently sporting a semi shorn head. When casual I wear trainers/combats/jumpers/jeans, I probably don't look very elegant but the concept of grace is not lost on me either.
(I do get to suit up for work though and I do actually clean up well )

edit; am in my thirties btw and my figure is perfectly fine thanks

meeeeh

Giselle wrote: »

Clothes help, but they aren't the whole picture. You can wear cheap clothes and still carry yourself with dignity. Conversely you can be dressed expensively but if you don't carry yourself well it won't enhance how you're perceived.

I also think that you can be drunk as a drunken skunk and still deserve respect, BUT its much more difficult to command it.

I think its important to take into account how we're perceived during MOST of our lives, but we can't live ALL of our lives worrying about the opinions of others. Balance is everything.

Completely agree. As I said I think a lot of what was listed there has more to do with lack of taste than grace. As fore grace itself, I think it is a bit oldfashioned concept. Yes certain etiquette is welcome but I prefer interesting and entertaining people to the ones that can always behave perfectly.

Regarding some other comments I realy don't know what has the opinion on abortion to do with grace. Unless grace defines women smiling politely, doing and thinking what they are told to and be good little ladies. If that is grace then I'll be really happy when it's completely gone.

doctorwhogirl

There's the stereotypical, old-school view on grace but I think your interpretation of it changes with the years. I think it has to change.

For me, grace is about how a woman holds herself. It's about self-respect and dignity. It's moved past the classic carrying books on your head, crossing your ankles when you sit stuff! I feel it's about those women that you see that have an inner confidence, they carry themselves well in both body and conversation. Not in a cocky way, but a self-assured way.

when you bring alcohol into it, of course the notion of "grace" changes because people change when they have alcohol! All people- men and women. Gracefulness does get somewhat fuzzy when mixed with spirits... Alcohol releases inhibitions and makes it more difficult to exhibit self control, so being "graceful" is a challenge!

I don't feel I'm graceful in by body language; I'm clumsy as hell and messy too. My posture isn't the may-west and I'm a bit shy in new company. But I like to think that when people get to know me I have grace in my own way...

havetoquit

Ok, my comments were not meant to come across as judgemental guys ok, but can see how they could be perceived that way.The problem with virtual discussions is that it is very difficult, if not impossible to always convey exactly what one means to, but then most fellow members on a forum such as this realizes that anyway and do not take things too literally.

Whilst I may perceive those I described to be not 'Graceful' or dignified, that is only my perception of them outwardly at first glance and which does not equate to being judgemental, as I could not possibly judge a person based on how they look, or dress, but would need to know them, their character and personality traits before forming any such opinion.

We have all heard the saying 'She accepted the compliment with grace/gracefully' Just another way of saying she was polite and neither overly pleased in an obvious way or dismissive as in 'What? This old thing. You must be joking I've had it years and am sending it off to the charity shop next week'

Get my point here? We are basically only trying to convey our own interpretation of the word Graceful and we will all have a different definition won't we guys?

Yet, we all know unfortunately that how we dress, behave in public and carry ourselves is definitely judged by others in interview situations for example. We can argue that it shouldn't be and that the girl with the shaved head and safety pin in her ear, piercing in her lip or any non con-formative type of dress is equally entitled to work behind the counter at the bank, sit in the Dail, become President of Ireland or what ever....but why is it still very much the case that yes, we are still judged in this way? And the difference here is that when you are refused that much needed job just because of how you have presented yourself, manner you used, whatever, we are then talking Judgement and not just perception.

Who invented dress codes for the work place and why? Does how one is dressed or presents themselves make that much difference? It seems that it does and I for one am making this my final contribution to the topic, as I initially took it to be just a casual matter of one's own opinion and not to be taken quite so literally ok...end of the saga for moi!

Perhaps we could start a discussion on the subject of why are dress codes so important for any given profession.

Mod

Off topic rants deleted. Take it to feedback.

Sorcha16 don't post in this thread again.

PM for clarification if required

Eve_Dublin

Let's call a spade a spade here; people are talking about being ladylike which is a whole different kettle of fish. I suppose I have a different idea of what grace is.

havetoquit

Yes, of course, agree. We all have our own personal definition of gracefullness, but it was a lively discussion while it lasted eh?

Eve_Dublin

Yep.



I do find it interesting though how it's an adjective only applied to women. What's the male equivalent?

havetoquit

Yes me too. I can only guess that it would possibly be men who are uncouth, rough edged, personal appearance neglected and who probably uses foul language etc etc.

I'm already waiting for some outburst in response to this, but am not referring to anyone at all, just making a guess regarding the adjective in question and hey, sure it is just a bit of fun.