Grace - Is there a Deficiency?

doccbh

My own personal observation is that grace does appear to be lacking among Irish women, particularly in recent times, and specifically in the 20-35 year old demographic. While there is no grace quotient (GQ) from which to make any definitive statements or generalizations, how many of you agree there has been a decline, and growing shortage of grace. And why is this occurring?

username123

Yeah, Im particularly ungraceful. Ive had some knee surgeries so my movement is not as fluid as it might be. I cant wear heels and sometimes I walk badly in flats. And to see me playing a sport is like watching a 3 legged dog dance with a cat.

I am graceful in the swimming pool (i think), but thats about it.

my my my

you have obiously never benn to conemara

Morgase

What exactly do you mean by grace?

Links234

I think I'm very graceful in a mosh pit thank you very much!

Lyaiera

Links234 wrote: »

I think I'm very graceful in a mosh pit thank you very much!

Loads of pro moshers have had some ballet training actually. It helps you stay light and fleet of foot in your New Rocks.

Sorcha16

Morgase wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by grace?

Less loud, brash,in-your-face, garish clothed, foul-mouthed and more refined, elegant, mindful representation of oneself in an eloquent but poised manner

Stench Blossoms

Sorcha16 wrote: »

Less loud, brash,in-your-face, garish clothed, foul-mouthed and more refined, elegant, mindful representation of oneself in an eloquent but poised manner

You can rule me out. I'm all of those when I've drink on me.

Lyaiera

To be serious, female grace much like male stoicism are bygones of an old era and I'm glad for that. If someone chooses to be graceful or stoic as a personal philosophy that's wonderful but I don't think either should be expected as a defining element of anyone.

Call Me Jimmy

Lyaiera wrote: »

To be serious, female grace much like male stoicism are bygones of an old era and I'm glad for that. If someone chooses to be graceful or stoic as a personal philosophy that's wonderful but I don't think either should be expected as a defining element of anyone.

I don't know about female grace, but male stoicism hasn't gone anywhere! It's part and parcel still imo.

Lyaiera

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I don't know about female grace, but male stoicism hasn't gone anywhere! It's part and parcel still imo.

Yeah, that's probably wishful thinking. It has lessened though and I think that's a good thing.

Call Me Jimmy

Yea I think the whole binge-drinking imagery of women nowadays is the image that pops to mind for most people in terms of female grace. I'll be honest I don't fully understand 'grace' as it is written in the OP. But I think a lot of women might consider themselves graceful when sober and then not so graceful when drunk. Whereas the stoicism for males is something that is still much more embedded in male culture from young ages and continues to become more entrenched throughout their lives. Once girls get to teen-years they seem to realise the ridiculousness of being pressured to be graceful all the time.

The stoicism has lessened of course, but as a young guy, any signs of emotions still equals gay.

Emeraldy Pebbles

Unclear OP is unclear.

Stheno

Sorcha16 wrote: »

Less loud, brash,in-your-face, garish clothed, foul-mouthed and more refined, elegant, mindful representation of oneself in an eloquent but poised manner

Lyaiera wrote: »

To be serious, female grace much like male stoicism are bygones of an old era and I'm glad for that. If someone chooses to be graceful or stoic as a personal philosophy that's wonderful but I don't think either should be expected as a defining element of anyone.

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Yea I think the whole binge-drinking imagery of women nowadays is the image that pops to mind for most people in terms of female grace. I'll be honest I don't fully understand 'grace' as it is written in the OP. But I think a lot of women might consider themselves graceful when sober and then not so graceful when drunk. Whereas the stoicism for males is something that is still much more embedded in male culture from young ages and continues to become more entrenched throughout their lives. Once girls get to teen-years they seem to realise the ridiculousness of being pressured to be graceful all the time.

The stoicism has lessened of course, but as a young guy, any signs of emotions still equals gay.

I find all of the above very sad. I'd not class it as grace, but graciousness, which to me, means good manners and behaving well.

Now I'm out of the age bracket (I'm 39), but in my very early twenties, I learned to say please and thank you, and to smile at people (I'm one of those people who has a default axe murderer expression when I relax my face)

I learned that my interactions with people improved as a result of those small actions on my part.

Fast forward 15 years, and today i was meeting someone on a business matter in my local cafe bar as it was the most convenient place for us to meet.

My colleague observed my behaviour and would have commented on it were it not appropriate, it's not difficult to be gracious to people serving you and providing what for us was a very convenient and very comfortable environment for a meeting for a couple of hours.

In the OPs case I'd interpret it as manners, and acknowledging and being aware of others, and appreciating them.

I actually find that younger people are more gracious recently, and I've only started observing it recently.

Most folk go out and get drunk and make fools of themselves, that's exempt imo but I look at my OH's children in their early twenties and their behaviour and their friends behaviour, they may be awkward, but they are not graciousless ness.

I believe we live in a very very polite society for the most part. I'm on crutches at the moment, traffic stops when I need to cross the road, people try not to get in my way, shop staff have gone so far as to offer to take my bags to the car!

That is all graciousness imo, and by far the majority of people I'm talking about were under 35


As for stoicism in males, as I work in a primarily male environment, they are just as prones to aches and pains, I've had males bosses ring me on a deadline as they have to pick up their wives, not take calls as they have family time, take time off as their children are sick.

Time to stop believing the stereotypes sometimes?

Lyaiera

I wouldn't consider what you said grace. More just having good manners and being civil. To me grace conjures notions of deferring to your betters with class systems and knowing your place. And stoicism meaning having a stiff upper lip and not burdening people with your troubles. Of course there's a balance between all of this, someone should absolutely know which battles are worth fighting and when and whom to look for for help. It's the idea of defining a philosophy of life on a notion of having grace that's weird to me.

Ellsbells

I am a bit older and hate to see younger girls covered in slap, barely any clothes on them or else plastered into clothes that are way too small for them and falling around the streets drunk. For me that demonstrates a lack of grace.

I also hate when people swear continuosly and as every second word. I feel it makes people seem so crass and I cringe when I hear it.

Eve_Dublin

Would it not be better to look at a definition of grace first?

Definition of GRACE
1
a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b : a virtue coming from God
c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
2
a : approval, favor <stayed in his good graces>
b archaic : mercy, pardon
c : a special favor : privilege <each in his place, by right, not grace, shall rule his heritage — Rudyard Kipling>
d : disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency
e : a temporary exemption : reprieve
3
a : a charming or attractive trait or characteristic
b : a pleasing appearance or effect : charm <all the grace of youth — John Buchan>
c : ease and suppleness of movement or bearing
4
—used as a title of address or reference for a duke, a duchess, or an archbishop
5
: a short prayer at a meal asking a blessing or giving thanks
6
plural capitalized : three sister goddesses in Greek mythology who are the givers of charm and beauty
7
: a musical trill, turn, or appoggiatura
8
a : sense of propriety or right <had the grace not to run for elective office — Calvin Trillin>
b : the quality or state of being considerate or thoughtful

I've highlighted the ones that can be applied to everyday life. Why do these traits only apply to women? Thoughtfulness (surely that depends on the individual and not on a demographic set), pleasing appearance (most women I see out and about make an effort to look "pleasing" as do the men), ease of movement (depends on the amount of exercise you get and how naturally bendy you are). They seem pretty multi-gender to me. And no, I haven't noticed a decline in any of these. It differs from person to person and that's how it's always been.

Ellsbells

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Why do these traits only apply to women?

Who said they do? The Op specifically asked about Irish women so people are responding to her original query.

Eve_Dublin

Ellsbells wrote: »

Who said they do? The Op specifically asked about Irish women so people are responding to her original query.

There's really no need to put that underlined AND in bold. It comes off unnecessarily aggressive. No need for it.

Fair enough. I suppose I presumed that because it was only asked of women in a women's forum about Irish women, that it was somehow only something women should possess....otherwise it'd be posted elsewhere I could be wrong though. It's often only associated with women in society and it's not a word applied to men....and I'm asking why that is.

username123

Ellsbells wrote: »

I am a bit older and hate to see younger girls covered in slap, barely any clothes on them or else plastered into clothes that are way too small for them and falling around the streets drunk. For me that demonstrates a lack of grace.

I totally agree on falling around the streets drunk but I totally disagree on fashion choices or make up (not sure why you refer to it as 'slap' unless trying to be deliberately inflammatory by using a term with a negative and aggressive connotation?).

Fashion choices/make up have nothing to do with being graceful. For a lot of women fashion means fitting in. You would hardly expect one young woman to go out make up free in a decorous outfit alongside her friends who are fully made up wearing bang on trend outfits?

Are you female OP?
What age bracket do you fall into?

Eve_Dublin

Are some people equating grace with being ladylike?

ashers22

I assumed Op was male and that the question was asked in the manner of an implication, apologize if I've misread that though.

Am I graceful? like a horse.

username123

ashers22 wrote: »

Am I graceful? like a horse.

Horses are very graceful! Im more, graceful like a 3 legged donkey.

Morgase

Ellsbells wrote: »

I am a bit older and hate to see younger girls covered in slap, barely any clothes on them or else plastered into clothes that are way too small for them and falling around the streets drunk. For me that demonstrates a lack of grace.

I also hate when people swear continuosly and as every second word. I feel it makes people seem so crass and I cringe when I hear it.

I agree with you on the continuously swearing. I want to shake such people and tell them to expand their vocabulary!

But when it comes to young ones putting on too much makeup and scraps of clothes and falling around the place, well, every generation does that. Not all of them, but a good few. I sure did, and then I copped on a bit, like most of them will too.

Sorcha16

Stheno wrote: »

I find all of the above very sad. I'd not class it as grace, but graciousness, which to me, means good manners and behaving well.
Time to stop believing the stereotypes sometimes?

Can you please explain what you find sad about being refined, elegant, eloquent, mindful or poised? Those things aren't "behaving well" and implicit of manners too, no? Also, where did I stereotype anyone?

baby and crumble

In all seriousness though, I am one of those people who had manners and civility bet into me when I was younger- my parents would correct my grammar, my manners, the way I sat at a table, the way I ate my dinner. So I am a bit of a stickler when it comes to acting properly in public. I don't know if that's what the OP meant.

However it's not just women, it's everyone. Manners in many ways have gone completely downhill. I'm not talking about the slightly 'stuffy' etiquette of years gone by, but people who don't have (or use) their basic manners. It baffles me how people will comment on my manners- I don't make a conscious effort to be polite, I think I just am. Maybe parents aren't teaching their children manners as much these days?

On a related note, there is something I have observed which is 'reverse' snobbery. As in, many people now look down on anyone who has the trappings of what would have been 'upper' or 'middle class' manners and mannerisms. I get labelled posh a lot of the time, and it's said in a scathing way tbh.

eviltwin

I have no idea if I am graceful or not, I would probably tick the boxes in the definition Eve put up a few posts back but I wouldn't hold myself in a traditionally graceful way, I can be quite ungainly at times. I don't conduct myself like I went to a finishing school or anything.

But does it really matter? Its hard to be graceful when you are running around after a child or a dog or trying to get your work done to a deadline. I think most of us are just too busy living to really care

cantdecide

username123 wrote: »

You would hardly expect one young woman to go out make up free in a decorous outfit alongside her friends who are fully made up wearing bang on trend outfits?

Why not? There's too much of a pack mentality these days IMO. What's wrong with a little individualism?

baby and crumble wrote: »

On a related note, there is something I have observed which is 'reverse' snobbery.

Sigh....true.

As a male, I think I try to hold a level of dignity as much as possible. It doesn't make me old fashioned or stuffy. It doesn't limit my experience a jot. I just can't understand the need for the masses to actively demonstrate how mad they are all the time. It just seems pointless.

GreeBo

I dont think its grace thats missing, I think its class.

Far too many ladies (and men) have zero class these days, coupled with zero respect for themselves. They dont seem to be embarrassed about their behaviour at all, I guess because they are "all" at it, so no reason to feel any embarrassment.

I think its sad.

Eve_Dublin

Ironically enough, if we look at that photo of Audrey Hepburn up there, she has a far amount of "slap" on herself. Many people consider a woman without makeup on as unladylike (or lacking "grace" using the secret code of this thread) and many professions, although they don't strictly state it, expect it as part of a woman's grooming. Another case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Manners are one thing but acting as a lot of people acted when they were young is another. It's fair to say I made a holy show of myself (usually drunk) in my late teens, early twenties but on the whole, I still had manners and treated people with respect when I went about my business. Isn't that the most important thing? I'm 32 now and don't drink to that extent. It was a period of my life. I moved on like most people do. Not a big deal.

And just from my own experience, one thing I notice when I go home to Ireland is how mannerly people are....of all ages. In stark contrast to people here.