Holistic Vets in Ireland

Lizard_Moon

DBB wrote: »

For goodness' sake LM, will you lose the attitude? I asked you a perfectly valid question based on your post, but you haven't answered it, instead you grind your teeth and throw out a silly accusation about being off-topic, with that age-old chestnut "you're a mod so you should know better". Sigh.
Yes, the blurb says treatment may have to be stopped: I asked what happens then? Can you not answer this, no?
There's nothing off-topic about the way the conversation was flowing until your post, but if you have a problem with it being off-topic, you need to report it, as per the forum charter. Commenting on a post being off-topic is back-seat moderation, which is against the forum charter.
You posted a link to a product the OP has already done a lot of research on, which gives her no more information than she already has, and certainly goes no way to allay her fears.
OP has discussed this with her vet, as stated. But how many vets have had to actually live with the treatments they prescribe? I offered the OP some advice on how to make giving that treatment somewhat easier and more effective, given that I've had to administer Atopica to, and had to live with, dozens and dozens of atopic dogs. I have not told anyone not to do what their vet says, quite the contrary in fact: just offering some real life experience to the mix.

Enjoyed that

I didn't just post to the OP. The 'blurb' you talk about is the drug company datasheet. This is not just a thread on food this is on what can be a serious medical condition which has a treatment which can have side effects but these side effects may be temporary and may be better than the disease process. I know the OP situation is being very well handled but other people may just stumble on this thread via a google search. Hence I wanted some verified information in the thread.

Read the datasheet- the digestive symptoms can be transitory but the neurological symptoms may require cessation of treatment.

The other treatments we had before Atopica were very severe with side effects in nearly all cases.

Grandstanding on a food thread is fine but not on one involving a medical condition.

DBB

So, what exactly is your complaint? All I did was ask you a question. A perfectly valid, genuine question. I offered to help the op based on my rather broad experience with using the drug she's worried about, you did nothing only tell her what she already knows.
So, what's your problem with me helping her? I haven't told her to do anything that a person with non-vet training shouldn't... So, what's your problem?

Lizard_Moon

DBB wrote: »

So, what exactly is your complaint? All I did was ask you a question. A perfectly valid, genuine question. I offered to help the op based on my rather broad experience with using the drug she's worried about, you did nothing only tell her what she already knows.
So, what's your problem with me helping her? I haven't told her to do anything that a person with non-vet training shouldn't... So, what's your problem?

?

Lizard_Moon

DBB wrote: »

So, if you have to stop the treamtnet to resolve the vomiting issue, how does the dog get the treament?

As I said above, I never said you had to stop treatment to overcome vomiting. You misread my post twice. Neurological signs yes but I never said vomiting controlled by cessation. I asked you to read the data sheet.

Yes there are many non prescription ways of helping vomiting but drug related vomiting should be discussed primarily with the vet. All good vets will work with their client to get to an outcome that suits both the patient and their owner.

DBB

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

As I said above, I never said you had to stop treatment to overcome vomiting. You misread my post twice. Neurological signs yes but I never said vomiting controlled by cessation. I asked you to read the data sheet.

Fair enough, you said treatment might have to be stopped if "side effects" occur, as opposed to vomiting specifically. A little misleading, I have to say, but maybe that's my bad.
So, let me re-phrase my question then. Now, before I ask, let me make it clear that I am asking a genuine, salient question.
What would you recommend an owner does if the dog shows side-effects, which require that the treatment is stopped? What's next?
For what it's worth, I have treated several dozen dogs with Atopica, and until I slightly manipulated the way I gave it (with veterinary approval, I might add), the vomiting never resolved.
Instead, I watched hundreds of euros worth of drugs being vomited back up within minutes of ingestion. I can only imagine what owner compliance is like when they see this happening too.

There is a list of side-effects which resolve upon cessation of treatment: Could you enlighten me, are these potential side-effects (including gingival hyperplasia, verruciform lesions of skin or change in coat, red or swollen pinnae, muscle weakness or cramps) considered to be neurological signs, as you describe them? Another side-effect, anorexia, can be of neurological origin, but there are many other potential causes for this condition.

Yes there are many non prescription ways of helping vomiting but drug related vomiting should be discussed primarily with the vet.

What has this got to do with me? The OP in this case has discussed this primarily with her vet. Can you see something I can't in what I posted in relation to her dog vomiting that was in contravention of... anything? Something a non-vet shouldn't do? I can't... maybe I'm missing something?

Lizard_Moon

Sorry the discussion of side effects must be done between the owner and the veterinary surgeon and not in a public forum where people may take it as advice and implement it with their dog.
One of the times where being a vet means I am not n a position to post.

Neurological side effects we have seen have been seizures which resolved upon cessation. I believe you were deliberately misunderstanding me like previously!

This drug may not suit all dogs and so owners then have decisions to make with their vet.

DBB

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Sorry the discussion of side effects must be done between the owner and the veterinary surgeon and not in a public forum where people may take it as advice and implement it with their dog.
One of the times where being a vet means I am not n a position to post.

What a cop out. I don't want to know about discussion of side-effects, I wanted to know what does a vet advise if an atopic dog cannot take Atopica due to side effects? I'm asking out of genuine interest.

Neurological side effects we have seen have been seizures which resolved upon cessation. I believe you were deliberately misunderstanding me like previously!

More fudging.
There is NOTHING in the blurb about seizures, or neurological signs as a side-effect. As you've been at pains to point out before, your experience is anecdotal, with a tiny sample size. Howe many dogs, precisely, have you seen getting seizures from the Atopica? I've never seen a dog getting seizures from Atopica... so which of us is right? The manufacturers don't seem to be aware of what you've experienced.
According to the manufacturers, Atopica can cause nephrotoxicity or CNS toxiticy if given with other medications it shouldn't be given with.
I am really confused as to why you referred to conditions such as gingival hyperplasia, verruciform lesions, red ears, muscle cramps etc as neurological? Or did you not read the blurb?! It seems to me that it's not me that has done the misunderstanding here, deliberate or otherwise!

You still have not addressed the fact that you suggested I was giving out veterinary-only advice. Where is that? Can you point it out please?

As I didn't, and because you can't show that I did (don't make me have to squeeze another apology out of you for misrepresenting me!), and because I can no longer take you seriously because you, as a vet, mislabel non-neurological conditions and then try to fudge that you did this, and because this thread has turned into a pissing-against-a-wall competition, which I have to apologise to readers for, I'm out.

Lizard_Moon

DBB wrote: »

What a cop out. I don't want to know about discussion of side-effects, I wanted to know what does a vet advise if an atopic dog cannot take Atopica due to side effects? I'm asking out of genuine interest.



More fudging.
There is NOTHING in the blurb about seizures, or neurological signs as a side-effect. As you've been at pains to point out before, your experience is anecdotal, with a tiny sample size. Howe many dogs, precisely, have you seen getting seizures from the Atopica? I've never seen a dog getting seizures from Atopica... so which of us is right? The manufacturers don't seem to be aware of what you've experienced.
According to the manufacturers, Atopica can cause nephrotoxicity or CNS toxiticy if given with other medications it shouldn't be given with.
I am really confused as to why you referred to conditions such as gingival hyperplasia, verruciform lesions, red ears, muscle cramps etc as neurological? Or did you not read the blurb?! It seems to me that it's not me that has done the misunderstanding here, deliberate or otherwise!

You still have not addressed the fact that you suggested I was giving out veterinary-only advice. Where is that? Can you point it out please?

As I didn't, and because you can't show that I did (don't make me have to squeeze another apology out of you for misrepresenting me!), and because I can no longer take you seriously because you, as a vet, mislabel non-neurological conditions and then try to fudge that you did this, and because this thread has turned into a pissing-against-a-wall competition, which I have to apologise to readers for, I'm out.

? Again what???
Never mislabeled non neurological conditions. Yes have seen dog with seizures and not on any medication. I don't piss against the wall, I leave that to you. Never have felt the need to get into a contest with someone on the Internet. Never accused you of giving veterinary advice on here..... If missed anything only because cannot be bothered to read your rants.

I already said I WASN'T giving out advice on an open forum about prescription drugs and side effects so not a cop out.

kassie

just want to update this thread in case it is of any use to someone in the future....

i decided not to go down the meds route and opted to exhaust all possible avenues first and use the Atopica as a last resort. And i'm so glad i did!!!

My gut was right, the supplementing of salmon oil in his diet has done the trick, he is now 100% back to normal and has been since before Christmas. I washed him with malaseb once a week in the beginning to help and speed the healing process until they skin was healed, it took a while for the hair to regrow but it has and he is once again a happy and completely itch and scratch free pooch!!! And we haven't had to visit the vets with him since

Thanks to DBB for all your help and advice