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The Cathars: A Sane Religion? Pope Had them All Killed BTW.

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    #32
    Shryke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,199 ✭✭✭Shryke


    Auldloon wrote: »
    Carcassonne in south of France is a walled cathar city. It's really well preserved and a huge tourist attraction. Done the tour a few times years ago but can't remember much except that they were veggies and were besieged by the popes army until starvation and disease got them. If you are ever in the south of France I highly recommend a visit.

    Is the castle building game Carcasonne in anyway related to this period of history?


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    #33
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    "A sane religion" ??? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Pity there isn't a Nobel Oxymoron Prize.

    If there was, you'd be on a plane to Stockholm pretty soon. Maybe Enda would give you a lift on the government jet when he goes there for the Peace Prize. :):)


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    #34
    BBDBB
    Registered Users Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    LivelineDipso wrote: »
    I have been reading about this heretical sect in the middle ages called the cathars.

    Then they got popular and the Vatican invented the Inquisition to wipe them off the face of the earth. Which they did. They exterminated the population of large areas of France and Spain. The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

    .


    No one expected that


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    #35
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,022 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Sarky wrote: »
    I'm sure if you read Wikipedia with an open heart, you'll realise that it was all just metaphorical torture.

    Can we just assume philologos has already flown in, posted stuff, and buggered off once questions get tough for him? He seems to be ignoring me lately so if someone else could mention it to him, that'd be great.

    At least Philologos doesn't get personal.


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    #36
    RaRaRasputin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 394 ✭✭RaRaRasputin


    Yeah they seem alright like this, but the church had their reasons to have them eliminated. You will find chapters on the Cathars in every anthology on medieval heresy because they originally just deviated from the allowed norm. However, they weren't as golden as you might think and also had their fair share of corruption and greed...
    Though I surely don't condone such a persecution/killing spree I can see where the stupid church was coming from and had to control their power.


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    #37
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    At least Philologos doesn't get personal.

    Neither does he get specific, or get to the point, or get around to reading any counter-argument that challenges his shaky attempts at logic. I'm just kind of a prude like that.


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    #38
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Sarky wrote: »
    Can we just assume philologos has already flown in, posted stuff, and buggered off once questions get tough for him? He seems to be ignoring me lately so if someone else could mention it to him, that'd be great.


    Jesus, does attack the post not the poster not apply if the person being attack hasn't even posted in the thread?

    :rolleyes:


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    #39
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Sorry, I'll f*ck off back to my own country, will I?


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    #40
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Not from what I recall. IIRC they avoided sex as they were quite ascetic in outlook. Didn't eat any meat etc. They were an update of Arianism type thinking.

    A couple of herertical sects had the same notion, that the god of the old testament was the devil/evil force and that the clues were there to be found. Makes as much sense as the other viewpoint. the OT god is a murderous, inconsistent, nutbag who is only to happy to slaughter millions.

    Well worth a read if ye haven't already. From inquisition records
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Montaillou-Cathars-Catholics-Village-1294-1324/dp/0140137009/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353520378&sr=8-1#_


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    #41
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    LivelineDipso wrote: »
    left many important text out such as the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Mary Magdelene.



    I think you will find that those "Gospels" (of which most are not even Gnostic in nature) were left out of the bible for a variety of reasons, such as the earliest versions not appearing until the late 3rd century, their emergence hundreds of miles of Palestine, the fact that they do not align with any other Christian documents and the fact that they were so isolated and contradictory to even themselves that there could be no other sane conclusion to reach than their being a 3rd century fraud.

    But hey, that won't sound as good in a Dan Browne style nonsensical fiction thriller.


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    #42
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Sarky wrote: »
    Sorry, I'll f*ck off back to my own country, will I?

    Try to stay on topic here Sarky, and don't be so precious.

    :rolleyes:


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    #43
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,022 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Sarky wrote: »
    Neither does he get specific, or get to the point, or get around to reading any counter-argument that challenges his shaky attempts at logic. I'm just kind of a prude like that.

    ... as I already said, at least he doesn't get personal :o


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    #44
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Seaneh wrote: »
    I think you will find that those "Gospels" (of which most are not even Gnostic in nature) were left out of the bible for a variety of reasons, such as the earliest versions not appearing until the late 3rd century, their emergence hundreds of miles of Palestine, the fact that they do not align with any other Christian documents and the fact that they were so isolated and contradictory to even themselves that there could be no other sane conclusion to reach than their being a 3rd century fraud.

    But hey, that won't sound as good in a Dan Browne style nonsensical fiction thriller.

    It also seems highly unlikely that the Cathars would have been aware of the existence of these texts.


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    #45
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    It's interesting that this thread has popped up because I'm reading a novel that has a resurrected Cathar sect in its plot. I never heard about them until I read the book.

    From what I gather, the Cathars lived a fairly ascetic life not unlike Buddhism and had an inner circle of devoted called the Perfecti - who could be either men or women.

    The Cathars flourished for a while in the 12th to the 14th centuries in the South of France and in pockets in Northern Italy, but were denounced as heretics by the Vatican and brutally eradicated.

    There was also the Lollards of England who came along a bit later, they criticised the Vatican for corruption, opulence, decadence and idolatry and losing the real word of God. IMO Lollards were essentially pre-Reformation Protestants. Like the Cathars, the Lollards of the 1380s to the 1420s were brutally crushed.

    It was inevitable that the Reformation would happen eventually. You can't have a monolithic power based on so called religion without someone disagreeing and breaking away at some point.


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    #46
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Seaneh wrote: »


    Jesus, does attack the post not the poster not apply if the person being attack hasn't even posted in the thread?

    :rolleyes:

    People like me were slaughtered in the Inquisition and in the counter-reformation. I find it disturbing that people think I would glorify that in the name of Jesus. Particularly when the apostles evangelised peacefully and were martyred. The RCC went nuts with power.


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    #47
    Winty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Winty


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    It's interesting that this thread has popped up because I'm reading a novel that has a resurrected Cathar sect in its plot. I never heard about them until I read the book.
    .

    Hi what's the novel called? It's an interesting subject


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    #48
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Winty wrote: »

    Hi what's the novel called? It's an interesting subject


    The Colour of a Dog Running Away by Richard Gwyn.


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    #49
    Custardpi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    Anyone know of a good documentary on these guys? From what I've read it's a fascinating story.


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    #50
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Custardpi wrote: »
    Anyone know of a good documentary on these guys? From what I've read it's a fascinating story.


    Seconded. Ive read a fair bit about them and them seemed like a rather interesting people. Would love to see more.


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    #51
    LivelineDipso
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 510 ✭✭✭LivelineDipso


    The restrictive diet thing is used by cults to control their members. Usually they are low protein as the neural plasticity of the human brain needs animal fat to build itself. It's been long known that keeping people on the same diet affects people's critical thinking.

    They probably were defeated in battle because of the veggie diets too. The Iquisition would of given their troops loads of meat leading up to the attacks.

    The more I read about the cathars they seemed like a typical cult. Walled up in compounds, restrictive diets, told the rest of the world is evil, constant music, dancing and working. Sexual denial. Even the idea of having no secrets among the sect is a classic cult mind control technique to get into people's minds to manipulate and blackmail them.

    Their ending even reminds me of how it went at Waco. Sad in both cases.


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    #52
    LittleBook
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭LittleBook


    Shryke wrote: »
    Is the castle building game Carcasonne in anyway related to this period of history?

    It's named after the city of Carcassonne which (along with Montségur) is at the heart of "Cathar country" (pays cathare) in the South of France. It was designed by a German guy and is based in medieval times.

    I used to live near the area and spent many a happy weekend exploring the castles, fortresses, hill/cliff-top and medieval towns in the region. A truly beautiful place with a fascinating history.

    Some of my favourites:

    Saint Cirq Lapopie

    Saint Bertrand de Comminge

    Albi

    Lauzerte

    Lautrec

    Cordes-sur-Ciel


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    #53
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

    How did they not believe in God, yet believe in the Devil?

    Well they did in a way. Their version of evil was "rex mundi" which meant king of the world.


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    #54
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Yeah, it seems like they were a decent crowd! :) Kate Moss's book 'Labrynth' is about the story of the Cathars.


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    #55
    LiamMc
    Registered Users Posts: 906 ✭✭✭LiamMc


    Gorgeous photos.

    The Albigensian Crusade (1209) was raised against Christian heretics including the Cathars, by Pope Innocent III. It was a little bit of a land-grab by returning Knights Templars from the Eastern Mediterranean.
    http://home.eckerd.edu/~oberhot/cathar.htm
    http://www.halexandria.org/dward220.htm

    The "God will know his own" quote is attributed to a Papal legate, Arnaud Armaury (Cistercian, Abbot of monastery in Catalan and later Tarn-et-Garonne area).

    A less fortunate Papal Inquisitor was Peter of Verona who was murdered in 1252, believed to be by Cathar sympathisers. Within a month, Pope Innocent IV, issued the Papal Bull Ad extirpanda, that allowed the getting of information by duress.
    (PDF document from the 13thC.)
    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/1252-05-15,_SS_Innocentius_IV,_Bulla_'Ad_Extirpanda',_EN.pdf

    "The Podestà or Rector has the authority to oblige all heretics that he may have in his power, without breaking limbs or endangering their lives, to confess their errors and to accuse other heretics whom they may know, as true assassins of souls and thieves of the Sacraments of God and of the Christian faith, and their worldly goods, and believers in their doctrines, those who receive them and defend them, just as robbers and thieves of temporal goods are obliged to accuse their accomplices and confess the evil that they have done."

    Other photos:
    cahors.jpg

    Further reading:
    Thomas Aquinas on Torture
    http://catholicsensibility.wordpress.com/2006/04/29/114633381931140970/


    Albigensian Crusade
    http://www.the-orb.net/textbooks/crusade/albig.html


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