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The Cathars: A Sane Religion? Pope Had them All Killed BTW.

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  • 21-11-2012 4:00pm
    #1
    LivelineDipso
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 510 ✭✭✭


    I have been reading about this heretical sect in the middle ages called the cathars. These guys were amazing. The believed the bible was evil and the catholic church was a tool of the devil. They saw Jesus as just a decent guy with good ideas and who was not our saviour, as we did not need saving. They said the idea of Original Sin was a evil and malevolent lie invented by the Devil (who was the God of the Old Testement) to control people.

    They believed that there was no god as such - well God was an idea in the minds of humans, but a useful one if approached correctly. Thet said the material world was an illusion created by the mind and one's purpose in life is to be kind and do something useful. Where the cathars lived - moslems, jews and catholics live alongside them in peace and cooperation.

    Then they got popular and the Vatican invented the Inquisition to wipe them off the face of the earth. Which they did. They exterminated the population of large areas of France and Spain. The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

    All in all, as religions go they had a lot to offer sane people - especially considering the era in which they flourished.


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    #2
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    Oh look. Religion and sh1t


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    #3
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    LivelineDipso wrote: »
    I have been reading about this heretical sect in the middle ages called the cathars. These guys were amazing. The believed the bible was evil and the catholic church was a tool of the devil. They saw Jesus as just a decent guy with good ideas and who was not our saviour, as we did not need saving. They said the idea of Original Sin was a evil and malevolent lie invented by the Devil (who was the God of the Old Testement) to control people.

    They believed that there was no god as such - well God was an idea in the minds of humans, but a useful one if approached correctly. Thet said the material world was an illusion created by the mind and one's purpose in life is to be kind and do something useful. Where the cathars lived - moslems, jews and catholics live alongside them in peace and cooperation.

    Then they got popular and the Vatican invented the Inquisition to wipe them off the face of the earth. Which they did. They exterminated the population of large areas of France and Spain. The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

    All in all, as religions go they had a lot to offer sane people - especially considering the era in which they flourished.

    Cool story bro. Fo' reals an ****.

    Seriously though, thanks for the info, didn't know much about them.


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    #4
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    LivelineDipso wrote: »
    I have been reading about this heretical sect in the middle ages called the cathars. These guys were amazing. The believed the bible was evil and the catholic church was a tool of the devil. They saw Jesus as just a decent guy with good ideas and who was not our saviour, as we did not need saving. They said the idea of Original Sin was a evil and malevolent lie invented by the Devil (who was the God of the Old Testement) to control people.

    They believed that there was no god as such - well God was an idea in the minds of humans, but a useful one if approached correctly. Thet said the material world was an illusion created by the mind and one's purpose in life is to be kind and do something useful. Where the cathars lived - moslems, jews and catholics live alongside them in peace and cooperation.

    Then they got popular and the Vatican invented the Inquisition to wipe them off the face of the earth. Which they did. They exterminated the population of large areas of France and Spain. The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

    All in all, as religions go they had a lot to offer sane people - especially considering the era in which they flourished.

    I like the cut of their jib.


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    #5
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Labyrinth?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #6
    RainMaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭RainMaker


    Read about them a few years ago, interesting beliefs alright. I believe the term "Cathar" was given to them by the Catholic church as well, who tried to denounce them as "Cat worshippers"

    I think there was some political undertones to their extermination as well - land promised to kings of France and Spain if they got rid of them.

    Overall another dirty chapter in the history of the Catholic church.


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    #7
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    LivelineDipso wrote: »
    I have been reading about this heretical sect in the middle ages called the cathars. These guys were amazing. The believed the bible was evil and the catholic church was a tool of the devil. .

    How did they not believe in God, yet believe in the Devil?


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    #8
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Well this is an interesting group and i wish to learn more.

    To wikipedia i go.


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    #9
    BizzyC
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭BizzyC


    Does the Catholic Church have any "Clean" chapters in their history?


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    #10
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    The word 'catharsis' derives from the purge that was enacted on these people.

    Check out this episode, lovely chaps those Catholics
    When Bram fell in 1210, 100 prisoners had their noses cropped, their lips cut off and their eyes gauged out. One man was left with one eye so that he could guide the others away. With a hand on the shoulder of the one in front, and the one-eyed man at their head, a file of blind prisoners wound its way to Lastours (Cabaret), a visible demonstration of the ineffable mercy of God's Christian Army.


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    #11
    WhatNowForUs?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭WhatNowForUs?


    Im very suspicious of any religion that uses the terms devil or evil in it.


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    #12
    --Kaiser--
    Registered Users Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    WhatNowForUs? wrote: »
    Im very suspicious of any religion that uses the terms devil or evil in it.

    FYP


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    #13
    LivelineDipso
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 510 ✭✭✭LivelineDipso


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    How did they not believe in God, yet believe in the Devil?

    They saw them both as concepts, allegory more than actual beings. Similar to Carl Jung's archetypes. The terms represented the stuggle between good and evil inside the human condition before concepts such as psychology were invented.


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    #14
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    LivelineDipso wrote: »
    The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

    Was'nt the pope, it was one of the local lords types during the massacres.

    Cathars also took it up the jacksie, allegedly.


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    #15
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I'm sure if you read Wikipedia with an open heart, you'll realise that it was all just metaphorical torture.

    Can we just assume philologos has already flown in, posted stuff, and buggered off once questions get tough for him? He seems to be ignoring me lately so if someone else could mention it to him, that'd be great.


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    #16
    LivelineDipso
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 510 ✭✭✭LivelineDipso


    Bambi wrote: »
    Was'nt the pope, it was one of the local lords types during the massacres.

    Cathars also took it up the jacksie, allegedly.


    Yes it was a birth control method. They beleived that sex for love and pleasure was perfectly fine.

    They also had some interesting ideas about sin. They beleived the God of the world was evil - so blasphmey was considered closer to human nature.


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    #17
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Unfortunately, most of what we know about the Cathars was written by the same people responsible for trying to wipe them out. Some of which is dubious and far fetched, such as the claim that they engaged in exotic sex practices with cats. For anyone interested there is an excellent book about them "The Perfect Heresy" by Stephen O'Shea.


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    #18
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    The Purrrrrfect Heresy?


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    #19
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,919 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    LivelineDipso wrote: »
    The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

    I imagined Jeremy Irons saying that


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    #20
    Red Pepper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭Red Pepper


    BizzyC wrote: »
    Does the Catholic Church have any "Clean" chapters in their history?

    Of course they do!

    My favourite pope is Formosus. Top guy. Read about his trial here...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Formosus


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    #21
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    LivelineDipso wrote: »
    YThey beleived that sex for love and pleasure was perfectly fine.
    Not from what I recall. IIRC they avoided sex as they were quite ascetic in outlook. Didn't eat any meat etc. They were an update of Arianism type thinking.
    They beleived the God of the world was evil
    A couple of herertical sects had the same notion, that the god of the old testament was the devil/evil force and that the clues were there to be found. Makes as much sense as the other viewpoint. the OT god is a murderous, inconsistent, nutbag who is only to happy to slaughter millions.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #22
    joydivision
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 735 ✭✭✭joydivision


    Could these cathars not just have kept their beliefs to themselves and pretending to be catholic .
    Why did they die for this . Id be all yeah priest god and stuff . Mad isnt it . Dont chop me nose off .
    Then go back to buggering cats when he left .
    Never understood it .


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    #23
    LivelineDipso
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 510 ✭✭✭LivelineDipso


    The best records on the Cathars are derived from Islamic accounts.

    The Vatican hatred spawned from their Gnostic origins which rejected the idea that Jesus died on the cross or he was the son of God. That the entire Biblical canon (post Nicea) was a propaganda distortion and devious mind trick which left many important text out such as the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Mary Magdelene.

    The discovery the Nag Hamadi Library in 1945 more or less aligned the Cathar beliefs with Egyptian Gnoticism in that the 'reality' in terms of how humans experience it was created by an psychotic entity called the Demerigu who was also Yahweh the God of the Old Testement. The Cathars coming much later than the Gnostics incorported some extra Jewish and Arabic mysticism into their code. But essentially at its core was the same as the Gnostic.

    Whom the catholic church also exterminated with vicious, murderous brutality. Funny that.


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    #24
    LivelineDipso
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 510 ✭✭✭LivelineDipso


    joydivision wrote: »
    Could these cathars not just have kept their beliefs to themselves and pretending to be catholic .
    Why did they die for this . Id be all yeah priest god and stuff . Mad isnt it . Dont chop me nose off .
    Then go back to buggering cats when he left .
    Never understood it .

    They made the mistake of assuming that all religions were as easy going and humane as they were.

    Like the natives who ran to the beaches to greet the Pinta, Nina and Santa Maria.


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    #25
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Not from what I recall. IIRC they avoided sex as they were quite ascetic in outlook. Didn't eat any meat etc. They were an update of Arianism type thinking.

    A couple of herertical sects had the same notion, that the god of the old testament was the devil/evil force and that the clues were there to be found. Makes as much sense as the other viewpoint. the OT god is a murderous, inconsistent, nutbag who is only to happy to slaughter millions.

    that was his acting out phase, everyone calms down once the first kid comes along.


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    #26
    Conall Cernach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Conall Cernach


    Bambi wrote: »
    Cathars also took it up the jacksie, allegedly.
    That was one of the "sins" that the Templars were accused of too. The Catholic Church really has some sort of weird anal fixation going on.


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    #27
    LivelineDipso
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 510 ✭✭✭LivelineDipso


    The Cathars were respected for their goodness, even by their opponents. The Catholic Bernard of Clairveaux writes:

    "If you interrogate them, no one could be more Christian. As to their conversation, nothing can be less reprehensible, and what they speak they prove by deeds. As for the morals of the heretics, they cheat no one, they oppress no one, they strike no one."


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    #28
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Labyrinth?

    Emeli Sandé?


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    #29
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    see a bit more on them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

    they used to live here

    here

    and here

    pretty backs to the wall places to live


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    #30
    Jezek
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Jezek


    --Kaiser-- wrote: »
    The word 'catharsis' derives from the purge that was enacted on these people.

    Check out this episode, lovely chaps those Catholics

    sorry but as a pedant, I feel I have to point out that Catharsis is a much older word than these boys, and comes from Greek. That is all!


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    #31
    Auldloon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭Auldloon


    Carcassonne in south of France is a walled cathar city. It's really well preserved and a huge tourist attraction. Done the tour a few times years ago but can't remember much except that they were veggies and were besieged by the popes army until starvation and disease got them. If you are ever in the south of France I highly recommend a visit.


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