London - TFL to act on Buggy/wheelchair clashes

monument

AlekSmart wrote: »

Sadly monument,perhaps unwittingly,has failed to notice that the company is adhering strictly to the requirements of the Equal Status Act 2000.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/index.html

The company and it's staff cannot exceed or fail to observe thoseLegal requirements.

The TfL article merely shows that other Public Transport entities have similar problems,with similar lack of response.

The TfL article stops short of stating whether or not the NON-Disabled can be directed to vacate the relevant space/s or merely requested.,as there is a VAST difference.

I suspect that the UK situation is the same as our own,ie based upon the concept of "Disabled Equality" rather than "Disabled Priority".

This means that in their quest for equality,the disability rights advocates may have opened a Pandora's box in terms of human nature and individual priorities on public transport.

I can state that "situations" between Buggy Pushers and Wheelchair bound people are a dialiy occurance in Dublin,with the Bus Driver being in a totally no-win situation.

It is also one very pertinent reason for the single occupied buggy rule,as it makes it far more safely managable if a fold& stow situation needs to occur.

However,for the Busdriver,it can be a fraught experience,particularly if they have,in a desire to be cooperative and friendly,dug a hole for themselves by allowing more than a single occupied buggy on board.

I adhere strictly to Company Practice in this regard and generally avoid kerbside debate.

I tend to rationalize it in my mind as never having met a person who voluntarily decided to use a wheelchair as opposed to a person who has options as to how an infant/toddler may be transported.

I also believe that the Public Transport providers needed to engage early on with the Buggy manufacturers to arrive at an acceptable design of buggy to be accepted on board vehicles,perhaps even subsidising or rewarding the use of an approved simple and safe smaller buggy ?

The trend,mirroring motor car development,of ever larger and more complex buggies is not compatible with mass-transit in any way,shape or form,and needs to be arrested and reversed before a major tragedy occurs.

Just to reiterate the situation and policy on Dublin Bus.

In the event of a Wheelchair bound passenger presenting for carriage when an occupied buggy is on board.

The Busdriver must be heard to request the person to fold and stow the buggy,however should that person decline,then the Busdriver cannot require them to.

In this case the Busdriver must advise the wheelchair passenger that no space is available and also contract central-control in order to advise of the situation.

There are various different attitudes which can be described in relation to the scenario,however the LAW governs what Dublin Bus and its staff can do.

Essentially,the company meets its requirements by providing a) A suitably equipped vehicle and b) a suitably trained staff-member.

With Dublin Bus moving to a 100% disabled accessible fleet by early 2013 this is an ideal opportunity for Minister Varadakar and the Cabinet to make the small statutory change necessary in order to regularize the situation.

What is of greater importance however,is given the ESA 2000 is now almost 13 years in existance,how statutory bodies such as the NTA can draft Public Transport Service Contracts which carry NO requirement to utilize Accessible Vehicles at all.

This was first apparent in the Swords Express situation and now,incredibly,restated in the M&A Coaches Urlingford-Portlaoise tendered route.

It would appear that the NTA,at some level,have reservations about other statutory requirements,such as the ESA 2000,in relation to Public Transport.

Where did I say or otherwise imply that DB should not adhere strictly to the requirements of the Equal Status Act?

foggy_lad wrote: »

These days buggies are more like luxury 4x4 SUVs(Chelsea tractors), they are built for off-road but never leave the footpath.

I've went buggy shopping less than two years ago, we to shops all around Dublin.

I did not see many buggies built for off-road.

AlekSmart

monument wrote: »

Where did I say or otherwise imply that DB should not adhere strictly to the requirements of the Equal Status Act?

I've went buggy shopping less than two years ago, we to shops all around Dublin.

I did not see many buggies built for off-road.

Well you did imply here that Dublin Bus was discriminating against those with children...

Monument: And some people wonder why many with children avoid Dublin Bus like the plague

So,perhaps again unwittingly,you fail to appreciate that any percieved discrimination is fully in line with the legislative obligations of the ESA 2000.

That policy can be completely reversed to cater for your issue,at the stroke of a Ministerial pen,but that is for you to raise with the relevant Minister rather than dogging Dublin Bus about it.

If my employer and the Law allow me to accept 100 buggies simultaneously on my bus,then I shall unflinchingly do so.

Originally Posted by AlekSmart View Post

Sadly monument,perhaps unwittingly,has failed to notice that the company is adhering strictly to the requirements of the Equal Status Act 2000.

Foggy_Lads "Off-Road" description,may be a tad colourful for some,but it is accurate to a fault.

Buggy development and design continues to mirror the motor industry as the various new designs simply become larger and larger,at a rate far outstripping the actual infants they cater for.

Take an original 1980's Opel Corsa,Ford Fiesta,Toyota Starlet or virtually any motor car and compare it to its 2012 equivalent,often of the same name,and one will see how the equation goes.

Longer,Wider,Taller,Heavier but yet occupying the same market segment.

Try driving past any National School and observe the Santa Fé's,Land Rover Discoveries,Range Rovers and assorted other substantial vehicles parked outside....

It is interesting indeed to compare the attitudes of parents from back then,who may not have been Car owners at all,but who recognized that attempting to get a Silver Cross suspension pram on to a bus was going to be problematic,and who addressed this by buying a Go-Car...basic,light,and transportable !

It is,at the end of the day,all about reality and being forced to accept that space on a Bus is limited...get ones head around that and half the battle is won.....:)

monument

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well you did imply here that Dublin Bus was discriminating against those with children...

You -- wrongly -- inferred that.

AlekSmart wrote: »

So,perhaps again unwittingly,you fail to appreciate that any percieved discrimination is fully in line with the legislative obligations of the ESA 2000.

That policy can be completely reversed to cater for your issue,at the stroke of a Ministerial pen,but that is for you to raise with the relevant Minister rather than dogging Dublin Bus about it.

If my employer and the Law allow me to accept 100 buggies simultaneously on my bus,then I shall unflinchingly do so.

Again, you have inferred something I had no intent on saying.

You can have the greater buggy friendly message from the UK, and still kick people out of the space for passengers who use wheelchairs.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Foggy_Lads "Off-Road" description,may be a tad colourful for some,but it is accurate to a fault.

Buggy development and design continues to mirror the motor industry as the various new designs simply become larger and larger,at a rate far outstripping the actual infants they cater for.

Take an original 1980's Opel Corsa,Ford Fiesta,Toyota Starlet or virtually any motor car and compare it to its 2012 equivalent,often of the same name,and one will see how the equation goes.

Longer,Wider,Taller,Heavier but yet occupying the same market segment.

Try driving past any National School and observe the Santa Fé's,Land Rover Discoveries,Range Rovers and assorted other substantial vehicles parked outside....

It is interesting indeed to compare the attitudes of parents from back then,who may not have been Car owners at all,but who recognized that attempting to get a Silver Cross suspension pram on to a bus was going to be problematic,and who addressed this by buying a Go-Car...basic,light,and transportable !

It is,at the end of the day,all about reality and being forced to accept that space on a Bus is limited...get ones head around that and half the battle is won.....:)

Prams are getting larger? :rolleyes: ...

https://www.google.ie/search?q=vintage+pram&hl=en&qscrl=1&cr=countryIE&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bpcl=38897761&biw=1366&bih=655&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=fXeyUOfgA5CWhQfK3IHwBQ

Large prams with a carry cot are a must have for anybody who cares about spin damage and wants to leave their house for any amount of time in the child's first six months. If you care about modal change from cars then you should care about transporting these people. For public transport to really work it needs to be made inviting to people at all stages of their life.

foggy_lad

This is the type of thing we used to have on buses which could be folded and picked up in a single movement while holding the child and shopping in your other arm,



These days we see things like this monstrosity at bus stops and a degree is needed to fold them but why bother because they are almost the same size folded

monument

foggy_lad wrote: »

This is the type of thing we used to have on buses which could be folded and picked up in a single movement while holding the child and shopping in your other arm,

We have one like that for use now that he's a bit older, we see a good few with our model never mind others of the same size, and Argos have about 10-15 of them listed (some with hoods which make them look slightly larger). They are marked "Suitable for ages 6 months to..." -- so are not suitable for children younger than that.

There use to be -- as there is now -- loads of different sizes of prams.

From Argos:



In any case, service provides should adapt to customers, not the other way around.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

These days we see things like this monstrosity at bus stops and a degree is needed to fold them but why bother because they are almost the same size folded

which is why they should be banned from public transport full stop, you want to have a monstrosity of a buggy/pram like it then buy a car.

monument

end of the road wrote: »

which is why they should be banned from public transport full stop, you want to have a monstrosity of a buggy/pram like it then buy a car.

Great idea! Ban new born babies unless they are carried!

And people wonder why Dublin Bus lost so much passengers to cars up to 2006 or so and keep losing passangers.

LXFlyer

Exactly how are Dublin bus making it any more difficult for people with prams than any other bus operator on these islands?

There is an area clearly indicated as being available for buggy use, what more do you want?

AlekSmart

monument wrote: »

Large prams with a carry cot are a must have for anybody who cares about spin damage and wants to leave their house for any amount of time in the child's first six months. If you care about modal change from cars then you should care about transporting these people. For public transport to really work it needs to be made inviting to people at all stages of their life.

You are indeed correct in noting the link between car and buggy,but it goes far deeper than multi-modality.

With true low-floor easy-access on Buses only dating back to the beginning of the 21st century,we need to ask how indeed did our parents,grandparents and perhaps even further removed ancestors manage to get us this far as a species ?

As it currently stands each bus can carry ONE occupied buggy safely,thats approximately 900 at any one time in Dublin Peak.

There are actual limitations and restrictions imposed by the decision to have children,and access to mainstream Public Transport is but one of them.

Most who decide to start a family do so with the foreknowledge of these limitations but decide that the procreation of the species is worth it.

Some,however,proceed ahead with the full expectation that the rest of non-childbearing society will adapt or suspend it's norms to cater for that individuals demands.

Sadly,perhaps,that's not how it works,and unless Bus designers decide to remove all seating and impedimenta from their vehicles in favour of maximizing buggy stowage it's going to remain an unfair world for this grouping,whose individual needs are perhaps best served by their private car ?

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Exactly how are Dublin bus making it any more difficult for people with prams than any other bus operator on these islands?

There is an area clearly indicated as being available for buggy use, what more do you want?

I'm more concerned with the position of some avid bus supporters / bus staff than Dublin Bus it self -- but it all feeds into the problem.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Sadly,perhaps,that's not how it works,and unless Bus designers decide to remove all seating and impedimenta from their vehicles in favour of maximizing buggy stowage it's going to remain an unfair world for this grouping,whose individual needs are perhaps best served by their private car ?

More buses like this then:

AlekSmart wrote: »

for this grouping,whose individual needs are perhaps best served by their private car ?

The grouping in this case is parents who want to carry their children? That's quite a large group for public transport to turn their back on. The problem here is many posters favour what's best for one form of public transport (or indeed, often just one company) rather than what's best for developing public transport.

foggy_lad wrote: »

I was trying to recall where I'd seen that and then on a second look I spotted the bicycle-like break -- It's a pram designed to be running friendly, it's by no means a typical pram.

Also, a few points I did not have the time to reply to before...

lxflyer wrote: »

As to frequency being too low - I don't think you can simply provide extra frequency for the one or two users with prams?...

We simply do not have the money to provide buses at high frequencies for relatively low usage and that financial pill (however bitter) needs to be swallowed.

High frequencies for a better transport system overall -- many routes can support higher frequencies as shown by the BRT report (fair enough that BRT frequencies can't be done without the extra investment but there is current bus lane capacity on at least some routes).

lxflyer wrote: »

...As I've posted elsewhere, the reality is that the bus will remain the dominant form of public transport in Dublin for the foreseeable future even with LUAS BXD and the two BRT routes. That is not going to change, and ideas need to be built around that premise.

That's worth its own thread at this stage...

end of the road wrote: »

i've no attitude at all, to me its very simple and its to anyone who has a pram/buggy, if a driver requests you to fold it up fold it up, its not hard, if you can't fold the buggy/pram because it can't be folded or your carying shopping then wait for a less crowded bus, if for whatever reason the driver has to ask one to leave the bus because they won't fold the buggy/pram then they go.

You clearly have an attitude (ie "ah diddims", comments that people should not decide to have children etc).

The point here isn't saying that you're right or wrong, it's that you're being needlessly condescending while making your point.

end of the road wrote: »

and cyclists get away with a lot more.

That'd be hard: http://cyclingindublin.com/myths-law-breaking/

end of the road wrote: »

unfortunately, if they weren't there the majority would be able to get round a little quicker and easier

Not likely given many cyclists would switch to their cars way before switching to a bus or train. If those cyclists stopped cycling, there'd be more congestion and it'd be even harder people to find seats on buses and trains.

Conway635

I've found the article about how this is being addressed in London:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/buggies-on-buses-must-move-for-wheelchairs-8339677.html

At least there the powers that be are putting thought into getting the message to passengers, whereas here the poor busdriver is left to make up the rules on his own.

C635

Conway635

To the mods: sorry - resurrected this zombie thread by accident.

I thought I was posting this into the other, more recent, one.

C635