London - TFL to act on Buggy/wheelchair clashes

Conway635

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/buggies-on-buses-must-move-for-wheelchairs-8339677.html


I know this issue comes up in Dublin from time to time, and that drivers are left in a grey area.

Looks like TFL are being more proactive in informing passengers who has priority.

C635

AlekSmart

Conway635 wrote: »

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/buggies-on-buses-must-move-for-wheelchairs-8339677.html


I know this issue comes up in Dublin from time to time, and that drivers are left in a grey area.

Looks like TFL are being more proactive in informing passengers who has priority.

C635

All well and good,but it's still a bit short of stating whether there will be a compulsion on the buggy pusher to facilitate the disabled person.......if there is no legally enforcable method of facilitating the disabled person,then its more window dressing......The first mistake was in allowing Buggy Use of the disabled space to be even referred to,as many UK operators did,thereby digging their own hole.

Thankfully Dublin Bus always pushed the Disabled Access element rather than the greater Buggy Friendly message as in the UK.

Its all about Human Nature....not always the best of elements to be attempting to manipulate !!!

monument

AlekSmart wrote: »

All well and good,but it's still a bit short of stating whether there will be a compulsion on the buggy pusher to facilitate the disabled person.......if there is no legally enforcable method of facilitating the disabled person,then its more window dressing......The first mistake was in allowing Buggy Use of the disabled space to be even referred to,as many UK operators did,thereby digging their own hole.

Thankfully Dublin Bus always pushed the Disabled Access element rather than the greater Buggy Friendly message as in the UK.

Its all about Human Nature....not always the best of elements to be attempting to manipulate !!!

And some people wonder why many with children avoid Dublin Bus like the plague.

Yet another reason for Luas/LRT or BRT... Edit: Or just focus on building a larger culture of cycling: such freedom compared the bus or been stuck in traffic with a crying child.

LXFlyer

Monument, is it just me or are you really trying to find faults with Dublin Bus at ANY opportunity?

You seem to have an inherent dislike of the company or is it buses in general?

Frankly on this particular issue operators are damned if they do and damned if they don't!

KD345

monument wrote: »

And some people wonder why many with children avoid Dublin Bus like the plague.

Yet another reason for Luas/LRT or BRT... Edit: Or just focus on building a larger culture of cycling: such freedom compared the bus or been stuck in traffic with a crying child.

Are you saying Dublin Bus should prioritise parents with pushchairs over someone in a wheelchair?

Iwannahurl

If I recall correctly it is a legal requirement in Australia (or at least in Melbourne) for passengers to give up certain seats for disabled passengers. As is their practice in Oz, the penalty is a colossal fine and of course the rule is enforced, not just by officials but by other passengers.

In Stockholm the buses are teeming with buggies because (at the time I was there) adults with children in prams travelled free.

I never saw any buggy/wheelchair clashes, but there may be a number of reasons for that, eg very frequent buses, larger buses, a civilised society where people respect the rights of others etc.

AngryLips

It is so blindingly obvious that someone with a disability takes priority in occupying the wheelchair/buggy space over other users that I'm shocked TfL have bothered to issue any sort of guidance on the subject at all.

end of the road

monument wrote: »

And some people wonder why many with children avoid Dublin Bus like the plague.

ah diddims is it because one is asked to fold up their pram/buggy when asked to by a driver or inspector so a disabled person can use the disability space? is it so hard for you and others to do such a thing when asked?

monument wrote: »

Yet another reason for Luas/LRT or BRT... Edit: Or just focus on building a larger culture of cycling: such freedom compared the bus or been stuck in traffic with a crying child.

we don't need more nucence cyclists, set up a greenway network and banish them all to it.

Cookie_Monster

AngryLips wrote: »

It is so blindingly obvious that someone with a disability takes priority in occupying the wheelchair/buggy space over other users?

why is it so blindingly obvious?

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Monument, is it just me or are you really trying to find faults with Dublin Bus at ANY opportunity?

You seem to have an inherent dislike of the company or is it buses in general?

Frankly on this particular issue operators are damned if they do and damned if they don't!

I don't really see it as a company, not a normal one. It works more like a quango. But it's worth saying -- in fairness -- that the company itself isn't at fault for everything that is wrong with it. Long-term political interference, matched only by lack of political support at other times, has been deeply damaging to its chances of being a high quality operator.

Regardless, if we want a modal shift to public transport for all uses (not just commuting use), Dublin Bus -- with its current buses, lack of frequency, and lack of dependable -- is not fit for the job. As another poster recently said on another thread (and I'm paraphrasing): I'm not that interested in saving CIE, I'm interested in having a decent transport system.

end of the road wrote: »

ah diddims is it because one is asked to fold up their pram/buggy when asked to by a driver or inspector so a disabled person can use the disability space? is it so hard for you and others to do such a thing when asked?

Never had much of a problem myself -- biggest problem was the space being occupied by other prams when buses were too infrequent at weekends, and at other times when people randomly just would not move from the space.

But I know it is a problem with a newborn or young baby on your own with shopping or carrying anything else. It is even more so with a large pram -- they type owned by a huge percentage of people with babies.

Your "ah diddims" attitude is exactly what makes parents run away from using buses.... and when they get used to using a car, bicycles or Luas, why would they return to the bus?

KD345 wrote: »

Are you saying Dublin Bus should prioritise parents with pushchairs over someone in a wheelchair?

No, I'm saying parents should be invited with open arms to use the space when it is not in use by wheelchair users. It should be clearly marked as a wheelchair and buggy space.

end of the road wrote: »

we don't need more nucence cyclists

Oh, yes we do and numbers are already growing, so you'll have to get use to them.

end of the road

monument wrote: »

Your "ah diddims" attitude is exactly what makes parents run away from using buses....

no it isn't, if a driver asks you to fold up your buggy/pram you do it. end of story. if you think doing so to be a problem don't have children if you haven't all ready, if you have well put up until such times as bigger busses are here in ireland.

monument wrote: »

Oh, yes we do and numbers are already growing, so you'll have to get use to them.

no i won't, i don't see why i should have to put up with them their a nusance, they cause the busses to be slower where they use the bus lanes, they think they own the road, they break every rule in the book that a driver wouldn't get away with, they cycle on the footpaths making it difficult for the blind and others, their a nusance that should be banned from the cities and towns and banished to a greenway where they can do whatever they want.

Cookie_Monster

end of the road wrote: »

no i won't, i don't see why i should have to put up with them their a nusance, they cause the busses to be slower where they use the bus lanes, they think they own the road, they break every rule in the book that a driver wouldn't get away with, they cycle drive & park on the footpaths making it difficult for the blind and others, their a nusance that should be banned from the cities and towns and banished to a greenway where they can do whatever they want.

sounds like you are describing motorists there tbh.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why is it so blindingly obvious?

Perhaps because the people with a child in a pram can take the child out of the pram and fold it up relatively easily but the person in a wheelchair can't.

You really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about people with disabilities.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Perhaps because the people with a child in a pram can take the child out of the pram and fold it up relatively easily but the person in a wheelchair can't..

That's not always true, sometimes the person with the pram is equally not able to fold up the pram, and, even if there's a passenger willing to help, that person might gone by the time the parent needs to get off.

end of the road wrote: »

no it isn't, if a driver asks you to fold up your buggy/pram you do it. end of story. if you think doing so to be a problem don't have children if you haven't all ready, if you have well put up until such times as bigger busses are here in ireland.

You seem to be under the incorrect impression that somebody said never move when a driver says so. Nobody has said that.

And please drop the attitude.

end of the road wrote: »

no i won't, i don't see why i should have to put up with them their a nusance, they cause the busses to be slower where they use the bus lanes, they think they own the road, they break every rule in the book that a driver wouldn't get away with, they cycle on the footpaths making it difficult for the blind and others, their a nusance that should be banned from the cities and towns and banished to a greenway where they can do whatever they want.

And we'll banish motorists to motorways... how practical does that sound?

As CM says, your discription is a lot like motorists. I'm not defending misbehaving cyclists but your "that a driver wouldn't get away" comment is a sick joke give all that drivers get away with on a daily bases.

Cyclists are here to stay, so it'd be better for everbody if you just accepted that.

Conway635

To go back to the original article, I think TFL is to be commended for at least trying to get the message out there to customers about the usage of the wheelchair space.

There have been problems in Dublin where wheelchair passengers were denied boarding because a parent with a buggy would not move/fold, and judging from the article there is a similar issue in London also (so not a "Dublin Bus" issue, but a general "human nature" issue).

Clear information for passengers about the priorities for usage of such spaces is a good starting point. Backing it up with action of some form is also useful - you will note that the London article suggests that the driver will ask the passenger to move via the PA, and will not carry on with the journey if this is not complied with.

Similar clarity to both drivers and passengers in Dublin would be useful.

The problem in Dublin was made worse by the fact that until now, the fleet has been mixed between lowfloor and non-accessible, so a user denied space (be they wheelchair or buggy) could not be sure that if they waited for the next bus, that it would be accessible.

However the final non-accessible buses are coming out of regular service within the next four weeks, so this aspect at least will cease to be a problem.

C635

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

That's not always true, sometimes the person with the pram is equally not able to fold up the pram, and, even if there's a passenger willing to help, that person might gone by the time the parent needs to get off.

You make a fair point, but I'd argue that in the majority of situations it does tend to be easier for someone to fold a buggy/pram up.

You also make a valid point on able bodied people refusing to move when someone with a buggy boards. However i don't think it's necessarily the fault of DB. There are clear signs indicating that the area is prioritised for buggies/wheelchairs, so this should not be an issue. This is down to sheer ignorance and rudeness, and a general lack of courtesy in society at large that I am noticing more and more as I travel around Dublin.

As to frequency being too low - I don't think you can simply provide extra frequency for the one or two users with prams? Frequency was higher before Network Direct started, but you cannot tell me that there was not a serious amount of overcapacity in the service. Buses were going around half empty at times, and I'd argue that the service now is far closer to matching the demand that exists for it.

We simply do not have the money to provide buses at high frequencies for relatively low usage and that financial pill (however bitter) needs to be swallowed.

The company needs to be monitoring usage levels and responding to them on an ongoing basis moving forward so that it can respond to changes in demand relatively quickly. As I've posted elsewhere, the reality is that the bus will remain the dominant form of public transport in Dublin for the foreseeable future even with LUAS BXD and the two BRT routes. That is not going to change, and ideas need to be built around that premise.

monument

Conway635 wrote: »

...and judging from the article there is a similar issue in London also (so not a "Dublin Bus" issue, but a general "human nature" issue).

So, Dublin Bus can't share problems with London?

Other places do it differently as Iwannahurl said:

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In Stockholm the buses are teeming with buggies because (at the time I was there) adults with children in prams travelled free.

I never saw any buggy/wheelchair clashes, but there may be a number of reasons for that, eg very frequent buses, larger buses, a civilised society where people respect the rights of others etc.

LXFlyer

Other places such as Stockholm presumably have governments that are prepared to subsidise public transport to a far greater degree than our government is, to allow for those sort of measures to be put in place.

Someone has to pay for it and our governments have never had any significant interest in providing cheap public transport. Current policy is most definitely in my view to shift the burden of paying for the service onto end users and away from the State.

Conway635

monument wrote: »

So, Dublin Bus can't share problems with London?

:

What I mean is: this is not a problem specific to Dublin Bus, and unseen on other large bus operator's networks.

Nor is it an issue specific to "Irish" public transport users - as seemingly London bus users can react in the same way.

Where the difference is, in my opinion, is that TFL are addressing the issue with customer information and guidelines, whereas in Dublin it is being left to individual drivers to cope as best they can.

Now, I would *love* to believe that we lived in a society where we didn't have to nanny people with rules and guidelines like this. But sadly it just isn't so.

C635

Losty Dublin

On my bus home last night there was no less than 3 buggies on board. As the lower deck was standing room only it was getting exceptionally hard for passengers to move on and off; the friend and buggy pusher of onedidn't help by standing in the passage and staircase respectively. Another night last week saw a double buggy take up the wheelchair space much to the chagrin of a woman and her oversized buggy full of shopping.

While there is obviously a concern that passengers can't get onto buses at times, the core issue is less about denying people access to the body and more about asking some passengers to engage a little more common sense on a daily basis.

corktina

i recall my late Mother when she became less able on her feet,had a lot of trouble negotiating the buggies to get on and off the bus. Some of these things are huge, and to have one with the shopping in it is taking the michael somewhat!

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

i recall my late Mother when she became less able on her feet,had a lot of trouble negotiating the buggies to get on and off the bus. Some of these things are huge, and to have one with the shopping in it is taking the michael somewhat!

Now that I think of it, I saw a woman take a snot on a bus a while ago as there was a large buggy taking the spot where she expected her buggy full of paint pots was to go.

AngryLips

Conway635 wrote: »

What I mean is: this is not a problem specific to Dublin Bus, and unseen on other large bus operator's networks.

Nor is it an issue specific to "Irish" public transport users - as seemingly London bus users can react in the same way.

Where the difference is, in my opinion, is that TFL are addressing the issue with customer information and guidelines, whereas in Dublin it is being left to individual drivers to cope as best they can.

Now, I would *love* to believe that we lived in a society where we didn't have to nanny people with rules and guidelines like this. But sadly it just isn't so.

C635

I have never observed this to be an issue in all the time I've travelled on the bus, have you?

AlekSmart

monument wrote: »

So, Dublin Bus can't share problems with London?

Other places do it differently as Iwannahurl said:

Sadly monument,perhaps unwittingly,has failed to notice that the company is adhering strictly to the requirements of the Equal Status Act 2000.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/index.html

The company and it's staff cannot exceed or fail to observe thoseLegal requirements.

The TfL article merely shows that other Public Transport entities have similar problems,with similar lack of response.

The TfL article stops short of stating whether or not the NON-Disabled can be directed to vacate the relevant space/s or merely requested.,as there is a VAST difference.

I suspect that the UK situation is the same as our own,ie based upon the concept of "Disabled Equality" rather than "Disabled Priority".

This means that in their quest for equality,the disability rights advocates may have opened a Pandora's box in terms of human nature and individual priorities on public transport.

I can state that "situations" between Buggy Pushers and Wheelchair bound people are a dialiy occurance in Dublin,with the Bus Driver being in a totally no-win situation.

It is also one very pertinent reason for the single occupied buggy rule,as it makes it far more safely managable if a fold& stow situation needs to occur.

However,for the Busdriver,it can be a fraught experience,particularly if they have,in a desire to be cooperative and friendly,dug a hole for themselves by allowing more than a single occupied buggy on board.

I adhere strictly to Company Practice in this regard and generally avoid kerbside debate.

I tend to rationalize it in my mind as never having met a person who voluntarily decided to use a wheelchair as opposed to a person who has options as to how an infant/toddler may be transported.

I also believe that the Public Transport providers needed to engage early on with the Buggy manufacturers to arrive at an acceptable design of buggy to be accepted on board vehicles,perhaps even subsidising or rewarding the use of an approved simple and safe smaller buggy ?

The trend,mirroring motor car development,of ever larger and more complex buggies is not compatible with mass-transit in any way,shape or form,and needs to be arrested and reversed before a major tragedy occurs.

Just to reiterate the situation and policy on Dublin Bus.

In the event of a Wheelchair bound passenger presenting for carriage when an occupied buggy is on board.

The Busdriver must be heard to request the person to fold and stow the buggy,however should that person decline,then the Busdriver cannot require them to.

In this case the Busdriver must advise the wheelchair passenger that no space is available and also contract central-control in order to advise of the situation.

There are various different attitudes which can be described in relation to the scenario,however the LAW governs what Dublin Bus and its staff can do.

Essentially,the company meets its requirements by providing a) A suitably equipped vehicle and b) a suitably trained staff-member.

With Dublin Bus moving to a 100% disabled accessible fleet by early 2013 this is an ideal opportunity for Minister Varadakar and the Cabinet to make the small statutory change necessary in order to regularize the situation.

What is of greater importance however,is given the ESA 2000 is now almost 13 years in existance,how statutory bodies such as the NTA can draft Public Transport Service Contracts which carry NO requirement to utilize Accessible Vehicles at all.

This was first apparent in the Swords Express situation and now,incredibly,restated in the M&A Coaches Urlingford-Portlaoise tendered route.

It would appear that the NTA,at some level,have reservations about other statutory requirements,such as the ESA 2000,in relation to Public Transport.

AlekSmart

AngryLips wrote: »

I have never observed this to be an issue in all the time I've travelled on the bus, have you?

Just to clarify,I as a Busdriver regularly have buggy-wheelchair situations often,in my case twice a day.

In addition the Single Occupied Buggy rule would cause virtually constant confrontation,depending upon the route-time-of-day.

I would suggest this space-utilization issue is now in the top-three of "Issues" relating to Bus Services.

mitosis

So, what did people with children in buggies do before the disabled person space was integrated? They folded the buggy and put it in the luggage rack is what they did.

It's the stamp the feet, me me me attitude of some people that presents a problem. If passengers, with or without buggies, behaved with respect and consideration for others there'd be no problem.

It truly is a sad indictment that we have to legislate what is basic good manners.

Conway635

AngryLips wrote: »

I have never observed this to be an issue in all the time I've travelled on the bus, have you?

I've seen this a few times recently (within last two years) in both Dublin and London (I'm a daily bus user in Dublin and several times a year in London).

I've actually seen it probably as many times in London as I have in Dublin, which given I'm in Dublin a lot more, indicates that it is a bigger problem in London. Or maybe I've noticed it more in London because there are more single-deck routes there, and I only observe these confrontations when I'm sitting downstairs.

I have witnessed:

* Wheelchair v Buggy conflicts (a couple of times)

* Buggy v Buggy conflicts (several times)

* Buggy v Standee conflicts (a couple of times)

Sometimes the driver denies boarding to the second buggy, and the ire is aimed at him.

But the loudest and most confrontational scenes have been directly between buggy owners jostling for space on a bus (when the driver has just let more than one board), or between buggy owners and standing passengers on a heavily loaded bus.

As I've said, I'd love to think that rules were not necessary because everyone would be helpful and considerate, but I see a lot of inconsiderate bus users day after day . .

C635

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

i recall my late Mother when she became less able on her feet,had a lot of trouble negotiating the buggies to get on and off the bus. Some of these things are huge, and to have one with the shopping in it is taking the michael somewhat!

Buggies used to be lightweight city strollers which could be folded in two seconds and thrown one-handed into the under-stair luggage space on the bus or left in the centre door stairwell, also no buggy was brought on board unless it was folded because at that time there were no low floor buses and no wheelchair spaces.
These days buggies are more like luxury 4x4 SUVs(Chelsea tractors), they are built for off-road but never leave the footpath.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Just to clarify,I as a Bus-driver regularly have buggy-wheelchair situations often,in my case twice a day.

In addition the Single Occupied Buggy rule would cause virtually constant confrontation,depending upon the route-time-of-day.

I would suggest this space-utilization issue is now in the top-three of "Issues" relating to Bus Services.

Maybe it is time to ban unfolded buggies from the bus except for those who are used by disabled children?

end of the road

monument wrote: »

You seem to be under the incorrect impression that somebody said never move when a driver says so. Nobody has said that.

not at all, some people think its a human right to do as they see fit including not folding up their buggy/pram when asked, time the drivers were allowed not to continue the journey until asked person folds their buggy/pram, if it inconveniences passengers and they get annoyed and start ranting at such person requested to fold their buggy/pram then they might do it or even better leave the bus so the journey can continue or else as foggy lad suggested ban non-folded buggys accept for disabled children all though their will be some who will abuse such rule by saying their child has a disability when they don't

monument wrote: »

And please drop the attitude.

i've no attitude at all, to me its very simple and its to anyone who has a pram/buggy, if a driver requests you to fold it up fold it up, its not hard, if you can't fold the buggy/pram because it can't be folded or your carying shopping then wait for a less crowded bus, if for whatever reason the driver has to ask one to leave the bus because they won't fold the buggy/pram then they go.

monument wrote: »

And we'll banish motorists to motorways... how practical does that sound?

cars are a vital an important mode of transport, really they should be used for long distance transport or if their in a job which requires one. cycling on the other hand is a nusance in the cities and towns and if one wishes to not take the car around town or the city then get the bus or walk.

monument wrote: »

As CM says, your discription is a lot like motorists. I'm not defending misbehaving cyclists but your "that a driver wouldn't get away" comment is a sick joke give all that drivers get away with on a daily bases.

and cyclists get away with a lot more.

monument wrote: »

Cyclists are here to stay, so it'd be better for everbody if you just accepted that.

unfortunately, if they weren't there the majority would be able to get round a little quicker and easier

KD345

I was on a 123 last year when a lady in a wheelchair tried to board in St. James' hospital. A girl with a pushchair refused to fold the buggy and caused a scene.

It was eye opening to witness the attitude of the girl with the buggy who made it clear how she wasn't prepared to move. It was when the bus driver refused leave the stop the passenger folded the buggy and the wheelchair boarded.

Conway635

Not directly related, but a good example of how little regard passengers have for each other these days:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236841/Heavily-pregnant-woman-crutches-forced-stand-tram-passengers-refused-seat.html

I don't think we have quite reached this stage in Dublin . . yet.

C635.