Any Vegans on here?

Zombienosh

Hey all,

Just wondering if there are any vegans on here, I'm veggie myself but slowly making the move to vegan, Just wondering if there are any experienced vegan Gym goers here.

Been looking at supplements and wondering which way to go. I'm leaning towards wheat proteins as sun warrior seems expensive and too much soy protein doesn't seem too good.

flikflak

I am but dont do any sort of training programme just a bit of running, yoga and KB`s. If you are looking for some more detailed info then I have always found http://www.veganfitness.net/index.php to be a good resource.

WrigleysExtra

What would possess a human to be a vegan! Steak and eggs oh yes!

anbrutog

Zombienosh wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wondering if there are any vegans on here, I'm veggie myself but slowly making the move to vegan, Just wondering if there are any experienced vegan Gym goers here.

Been looking at supplements and wondering which way to go. I'm leaning towards wheat proteins as sun warrior seems expensive and too much soy protein doesn't seem too good.

Ive actually gone a step further and been raw vegan for almost 6 months now. Best thing Ive ever done. My energy levels are off the scale.
Re the protein Sunwarrior is all you need. Its an absolute myth anyways that you need to be stuffing yourself with 150g of protein a day to build muscle. Funnilly enough I can build muscle a lot easier now using sunwarrior and a raw vegan diet than I did chomping on lots of cooked meat and downing whey shakes.

anbrutog

WrigleysExtra wrote: »

What would possess a human to be a vegan! Steak and eggs oh yes!

I dunno , feeling better than you've ever been in your life? Those steak and eggs come at a cost.

Zombienosh

anbrutog wrote: »

Ive actually gone a step further and been raw vegan for almost 6 months now. Best thing Ive ever done. My energy levels are off the scale.
Re the protein Sunwarrior is all you need. Its an absolute myth anyways that you need to be stuffing yourself with 150g of protein a day to build muscle. Funnilly enough I can build muscle a lot easier now using sunwarrior and a raw vegan diet than I did chomping on lots of cooked meat and downing whey shakes.

Sounds good, I noticed sun warrior alright, seems to be decent.

WeeBushy

anbrutog wrote: »

I dunno , feeling better than you've ever been in your life? Those steak and eggs come at a cost.

Speaking as a vegetarian lifter; steak and eggs don't. Well they do in so much as anything does. A vegan/vegetarian diet can be far worse for you, and equally a diet containing meat can be bad for you. It all completely depends on your own diet.

As an aside, your thread will very quickly derail if you argue over steak and eggs with weightlifters!

Have you tried rice or hemp protein? Also quinoa (a grain like seed) is great as it is one of the few plant based complete proteins.

Zombienosh

WeeBushy wrote: »

Speaking as a vegetarian lifter; steak and eggs don't. Well they do in so much as anything does. A vegan/vegetarian diet can be far worse for you, and equally a diet containing meat can be bad for you. It all completely depends on your own diet.

As an aside, your thread will very quickly derail if you argue over steak and eggs with weightlifters!

Have you tried rice or hemp protein? Also quinoa (a grain like seed) is great as it is one of the few plant based complete proteins.

I haven't seen too many Rice or hemp proteins around, (apart from sunwarrior) I've heard of Pea protein aswell, Also didn't know Quinoa was so good, must increase intake of it.

Hanley

anbrutog wrote: »

Ive actually gone a step further and been raw vegan for almost 6 months now. Best thing Ive ever done. My energy levels are off the scale.
Re the protein Sunwarrior is all you need. Its an absolute myth anyways that you need to be stuffing yourself with 150g of protein a day to build muscle. Funnilly enough I can build muscle a lot easier now using sunwarrior and a raw vegan diet than I did chomping on lots of cooked meat and downing whey shakes.

Riiiight. Whatcha weigh? How tall are you? What % body fat are you?

hollypink

anbrutog wrote: »

Ive actually gone a step further and been raw vegan for almost 6 months now. Best thing Ive ever done. My energy levels are off the scale.
Re the protein Sunwarrior is all you need. Its an absolute myth anyways that you need to be stuffing yourself with 150g of protein a day to build muscle. Funnilly enough I can build muscle a lot easier now using sunwarrior and a raw vegan diet than I did chomping on lots of cooked meat and downing whey shakes.

Any chance you'd mind posting up a typical day's diet? I'm just curious because I tried being vegetarian for a couple of years and put on weight, probably because I used it as an excuse to eat lots of refined carbs (bread, pasta, cakes etc.) but in general I found it difficult to stick to.

Frank Bullitt

I would also be interested in seeing what sort of a "bulk" or "building" diet there is for a vegan.

anbrutog

Hanley wrote: »

Riiiight. Whatcha weigh? How tall are you? What % body fat are you?

6 2 - Weigh 13.5 stone. Body Fat...no idea to be honest , never measured it, but I'm damn lean. Why is what I've to say so unbelievable?

Plenty of vegan builders out there.

Frank Bullitt

anbrutog wrote: »

6 2 - Weigh 13.5 stone. Body Fat...no idea to be honest , never measured it, but I'm damn lean. Why is what I've to say so unbelievable?

Plenty of vegan builders out there.

I think the term "builders" might not be what you are looking for.

anbrutog

Gintonious wrote: »

I think the term "builders" might not be what you are looking for.

What term would you use, enlighten me ??

Hanley

anbrutog wrote: »

What term would you use, enlighten me ??

No matter what way you slice it, 85kg and 6 foor 2 isn't bodybuilder jacked.

It's probably "pretty good shape". But it's not "big".

Frank Bullitt

Hanley wrote: »

No matter what way you slice it, 85kg and 6 foor 2 isn't bodybuilder jacked.

It's probably "pretty good shape". But it's not "big".

This, the definition of a builder varies from person to person, but there is a clear difference between some who lifts weights and someone who body builds.

anbrutog

Hanley wrote: »

No matter what way you slice it, 85kg and 6 foor 2 isn't bodybuilder jacked.

It's probably "pretty good shape". But it's not "big".

Oh I agree. I never claimed to be anything else.
Im the size I want to be.
However , IF i wanted to go bigger ,I could. Its not beyond the realms of impossibility on the diet that I eat.

anbrutog

Gintonious wrote: »

This, the definition of a builder varies from person to person, but there is a clear difference between some who lifts weights and someone who body builds.

I think this thread is getting kind of muddy to be honest.
Ill return to hollypinks post later when I've time but the point I wanted to make is that you don't need to be stuffing yourself full of animal protein to put on lean muscle, and lots of it.

Frank Bullitt

anbrutog wrote: »

I think this thread is getting kind of muddy to be honest.
Ill return to hollypinks post later when I've time but the point I wanted to make is that you don't need to be stuffing yourself full of animal protein to put on lean muscle, and lots of it.

Well to a degree there is some truth, if you want to put on muscle all you have to do is lift and make sure there is a surplus of calories in your diet, so eating big in general will get you big, but how much of that is fat and how much is muscle would be the defining factor.

anbrutog

Gintonious wrote: »

Well to a degree there is some truth, if you want to put on muscle all you have to do is lift and make sure there is a surplus of calories in your diet, so eating big in general will get you big, but how much of that is fat and how much is muscle would be the defining factor.

Which can be done on a vegan diet, believe me.
And I would argue its far , far healthier for you overall.
Ive been on both sides of the fence , and I wouldnt go back.

Frank Bullitt

anbrutog wrote: »

Which can be done on a vegan diet, believe me.
And I would argue its far , far healthier for you overall.
Ive been on both sides of the fence , and I wouldnt go back.

Well you say that, and I'm not doubting you, but can you show me a sample diet perhaps? And how eating meat and other animal products is bad for you?

anbrutog

Gintonious wrote: »

Well you say that, and I'm not doubting you, but can you show me a sample diet perhaps? And how eating meat and other animal products is bad for you?

Ill post up the diet later when I've a chance, but c'mon.. eating large quantities of meat is somehow good for you??

Frank Bullitt

anbrutog wrote: »

Ill post up the diet later when I've a chance, but c'mon.. eating large quantities of meat good for you??

Eating large quantities of anything isn't good for you, weather it is meat or fruit or veg. Moderation is important, as is the quality of the meat and the origin of it, saying that a vegan diet is healthier for you overall without saying why meat is bad for you doesn't mean it is.

Like me, I eat a Vegan diet...with meat.

Hanley

anbrutog wrote: »

Ill post up the diet later when I've a chance, but c'mon.. eating large quantities of meat is somehow good for you??

See that computer you're typing on? And the way you form coherent thoughts? And the fact that you're wearing clothes, go to the bathroom on a flushable toilet and can walk outside and not fear attack from a larger, more able predator?

Well that's pretty much 100% because your ancestors ate meat.

So if you consider any of that stuff "good", then meat is good for you.

anbrutog

Gintonious wrote: »

Eating large quantities of anything isn't good for you, weather it is meat or fruit or veg. Moderation is important, as is the quality of the meat and the origin of it, saying that a vegan diet is healthier for you overall without saying why meat is bad for you doesn't mean it is.

Like me, I eat a Vegan diet...with meat.

For me , its all about two things , how much energy we need to invest to digest our foods , and what happens when they get broken down in our systems.
In my opinion , meat ( and most other animal products ) are just way too taxing on our digestive system for it to be considered a worthwhile source of energy for us as humans.
We dont have the digestive system that a tiger , a cat or a dog has , one that can break down meat far faster than we can as human beings.

Hence why we are knackered when we eat a big steak , or after our turkey and ham Christmas dinner.

The waste products of meats and other animal products are usually pretty mucus forming which will obviously bring its own problems.

So personally I eat lots of raw fruits, veg , nuts and seeds which are clean and easy to digest, rather than meat and animal products which rob me of vital energy via its digestive process.

Im sure theres plenty of people who will disagree with what I got to say. Fair enough. Do whatever works for you.
My main intention by posting here was to help those who wish to gain muscle or even build large amounts of muscle via a vegan diet.
As Ive said earlier , Ive been on both sides of the fence. This way works for me.
It works for lots of others also.

anbrutog

Hanley wrote: »

See that computer you're typing on? And the way you form coherent thoughts? And the fact that you're wearing clothes, go to the bathroom on a flushable toilet and can walk outside and not fear attack from a larger, more able predator?

Well that's pretty much 100% because your ancestors ate meat.

So if you consider any of that stuff "good", then meat is good for you.

Must. Not. Rise.To.Bait...

Hanley

anbrutog wrote: »

Must. Not. Rise.To.Bait...

Please do. I'd love to hear your response.

Hanley

anbrutog wrote: »

For me , its all about two things , how much energy we need to invest to digest our foods , and what happens when they get broken down in our systems.
In my opinion , meat ( and most other animal products ) are just way too taxing on our digestive system for it to be considered a worthwhile source of energy for us as humans.
We dont have the digestive system that a tiger , a cat or a dog has , one that can break down meat far faster than we can as human beings.

Hence why we are knackered when we eat a big steak , or after our turkey and ham Christmas dinner.

If you replaced "meat" with "wheat" you might be onto something.

The reason people feel knackered after xmas dinner is because of the 2,000kcals worth of carbs they eat, not the meat.

Anyone I know who's gone from a "traditional" sambo/wrap for lunch and potatos for dinner to a fat/protein based meal set up reports how shocked they are by improved energy levels and lack of fatigue.

anbrutog

Hanley wrote: »

If you replaced "meat" with "wheat" you might be onto something.

The reason people feel knackered after xmas dinner is because of the 2,000kcals worth of carbs they eat, not the meat.

Anyone I know who's gone from a "traditional" sambo/wrap for lunch and potatos for dinner to a fat/protein based meal set up reports how shocked they are by improved energy levels and lack of fatigue.

I disagree. I gave the xmas dinner example as its one that most people can relate to. I would argue that to break down tightly wound, tough strands of cooked animal protein is tough on our digestive system and that the energy has to come from somewhere.

Your first arguement about us progressing as human beings due to meat is a red herring , its irrelevant. Maybe its true. Maybe its not. Like commenting on anything our ancestors got up you'll find arguements to back up every claim imaginable.
Does our progression as a race due to our ancestors dietary habits mean its healthy for you overall?? In my opinion no, due to the reasons outlined.

Its heavy on your digestive system, energy sapping and its mucus forming. Thats reason enough in my book.

Meat may have been a necessary evil once upon a time, but there are better options now.

In my opinion.

As I said, Ive been on both sides. Maybe you should try it also?? You might be surprised.

Frank Bullitt

anbrutog wrote: »

For me , its all about two things , how much energy we need to invest to digest our foods , and what happens when they get broken down in our systems.
In my opinion , meat ( and most other animal products ) are just way too taxing on our digestive system for it to be considered a worthwhile source of energy for us as humans.
We dont have the digestive system that a tiger , a cat or a dog has , one that can break down meat far faster than we can as human beings.

Hence why we are knackered when we eat a big steak , or after our turkey and ham Christmas dinner.

The waste products of meats and other animal products are usually pretty mucus forming which will obviously bring its own problems.

So personally I eat lots of raw fruits, veg , nuts and seeds which are clean and easy to digest, rather than meat and animal products which rob me of vital energy via its digestive process.

Im sure theres plenty of people who will disagree with what I got to say. Fair enough. Do whatever works for you.
My main intention by posting here was to help those who wish to gain muscle or even build large amounts of muscle via a vegan diet.
As Ive said earlier , Ive been on both sides of the fence. This way works for me.
It works for lots of others also.

We dont have the same digestion now, but that doesn't mean we can or shouldn't eat meat, again this gets down to moderation and how often and how much you eat meat.

You mention feeling tired after eating a large meal with meat, this again depends on the size. Also on that, I feel far worse after eating something like pasta or bread over meat, and I eat meat quite regularly, so again this point is not just based on meat.

I eat quite similar to you, but with the meat added to it. You talk about it robbing you of vital energy when it is digesting, but this again can come down to the quantity and quality, and also down to the persons metabolism.

Your way may work for you, I am not denying that, but eating meat works for a lot more.

anbrutog

Gintonious wrote: »

We dont have the same digestion now, but that doesn't mean we can or shouldn't eat meat, again this gets down to moderation and how often and how much you eat meat.

You mention feeling tired after eating a large meal with meat, this again depends on the size. Also on that, I feel far worse after eating something like pasta or bread over meat, and I eat meat quite regularly, so again this point is not just based on meat.

I eat quite similar to you, but with the meat added to it. You talk about it robbing you of vital energy when it is digesting, but this again can come down to the quantity and quality, and also down to the persons metabolism.

Your way may work for you, I am not denying that, but eating meat works for a lot more.

I just dont see how eating something like meat which is tough on your system to be a good idea. Sure , you could probably eat it once or twice a week and its not going to do any major harm, but personally I wouldnt even bother doing that , I just wouldnt see the point.

Aside from the energy issue , the main one really which made me stop was it being acidic/mucus forming on digestion. Its a concept which people either dont understand , ignore or simply dont believe in but for me it was a deciding factor. I just wish to eat as clean and as digestible as possible, I just dont see how meat or animal products enter into this realm at all.

As an aside , why does nearly every thread on veganism anywhere I've seen have to degenerate into meat eaters sticking their oar in, telling us that we're unhealthy , we're this or we're someother thing??

Note Im talking in general terms , and not specifically to this thread ( although it could arguably apply )

Frank Bullitt

anbrutog wrote: »

I just dont see how eating something like meat which is tough on your system to be a good idea. Sure , you could probably eat it once or twice a week and its not going to do any major harm, but personally I wouldnt even bother doing that , I just wouldnt see the point.

Aside from the energy issue , the main one really which made me stop was it being acidic/mucus forming on digestion. Its a concept which people either dont understand , ignore or simply dont believe in but for me it was a deciding factor. I just wish to eat as clean and as digestible as possible, I just dont see how meat or animal products enter into this realm at all.

Well, and I dont want this to sound condescending, but when you say "i just don't see how eating something like meat is good for you" I get the impression that you might not know about it fully. It's like saying that you can't see how getting an operation is good for you considering that they have to cut you open and you loose blood.

The other point you made about the stuff it forms for digestion, this can depend on the meat, the quality of it and the source. Digesting anything has an effect on your body, and meat is no different, but in terms of the stuff is produces it is not the worst, milk for instance is the top dog for that. But worse of them all is wheat, it can inflame your entire digestive system and cause serious issues in later life, no matter what the source.

Not seeing or not wanting to see how people can eat meat is up to them, if it is an animal cruelty thing then so be it, thats up to them, but meat is not bad for you, and as humans we have been eating it for quite a while, so much so that our appendix is now useless to us.

cormie

Given the forum, "Health and Fitness" (not building and bulking) and the OP's thread, "gym goers", nothing about body building and that the OP seems to be looking for some advice, pointers and probably a bit of moral support. I think the fact the thread has turned into debate on meat vs non meat eating is a bit off the line of what the OP was looking for. They are already vegetarian so have probably made up their mind regarding meat long ago.

I've heard some great things about the Sun Warrior protein, that it's raw, organic and the proteins are derived from much better methods than a lot of the protein powder on the market which is made via a chemical process and has some pretty bad things in it. This is just what I've heard.

The idea of eating fresh fruit, veg, nuts and seeds certainly sounds a lot cleaner than eating dead animal meat and other animal products. In terms of being healthy, I think it definitely sounds like the way to go. Whether or not you can bulk up to become a muscle machine I don't know, but we all have our different agendas. Some want to be huge and will sacrifice their health to accomplish this for whatever reasons, others are happy to be lean, strong and healthy and I believe this can certainly be achieved on a vegan diet.

Frank Bullitt

cormie wrote: »

Given the forum, "Health and Fitness" (not building and bulking) and the OP's thread, "gym goers", nothing about body building and that the OP seems to be looking for some advice, pointers and probably a bit of moral support. I think the fact the thread has turned into debate on meat vs non meat eating is a bit off the line of what the OP was looking for. They are already vegetarian so have probably made up their mind regarding meat long ago.

I've heard some great things about the Sun Warrior protein, that it's raw, organic and the proteins are derived from much better methods than a lot of the protein powder on the market which is made via a chemical process and has some pretty bad things in it. This is just what I've heard.

The idea of eating fresh fruit, veg, nuts and seeds certainly sounds a lot cleaner than eating dead animal meat and other animal products. In terms of being healthy, I think it definitely sounds like the way to go. Whether or not you can bulk up to become a muscle machine I don't know, but we all have our different agendas. Some want to be huge and will sacrifice their health to accomplish this for whatever reasons, others are happy to be lean, strong and healthy and I believe this can certainly be achieved on a vegan diet.

Well we never said tat you had to either pick mean or the fruit veg etc, which is what this seems to be about now, maybe our own thread? although it has probably been done to death at this stage.

The "healthier" argument is also an interesting one, as nutrient and vitamin deficiencies in vegans and vegetarians are higher, they can be low in the likes of iron, zinc, omega-3 fats, and B12, all of which are found in meat, this is more of an every day thing, so for those who are training, meat provides things like creatine and glutamine, which aids muscle repair.

As in relation to the OP's original question, supplementation is going to be a big help for you, weather it is protein or essential oils. If it is weight training then a vegan friendly glutamine would really help, and a suitable oil for your joints or indeed any of the ones I have mentioned above.

If bulking is your thing, then beans are a large help, along with lentils and avocado, oils and nuts, but increasing intake of nuts can lead to intolerance's and eventually you could develop an allergy to it.

anbrutog

Gintonious wrote: »

Well, and I dont want this to sound condescending, but when you say "i just don't see how eating something like meat is good for you" I get the impression that you might not know about it fully. It's like saying that you can't see how getting an operation is good for you considering that they have to cut you open and you loose blood.

Believe me , Ive done more than enough research on the effect that meat has on the body. Its my firm opinion thats worldwide increase in consumption is the main reason behind the explosion in cancer rates ( colon in particular ) and other degenerative diseases. Why is that we're even debating this issue ?? Surely the doubt alone is enough for people to question its worth?? I dont ever hear people debating whether broccoli is good for you or not...

Gintonious wrote: »

The other point you made about the stuff it forms for digestion, this can depend on the meat, the quality of it and the source. Digesting anything has an effect on your body, and meat is no different,

Really ?? You honestly think that eating a spinach and tomato salad will be as easy on your stomach ( and even compare in the mucus production stakes ) as a prime piece of grass fed beef?? The quality wont make any difference , only how well equipped your digestive system is break down each part of the food into its constituent parts. Which ours sadly isnt as we lack the machinery that a true carnivore posseses, prime cut or not, its irrelevant. Go eat a piece of roadkill WHOLE ( like a tiger would ) and that will answer your question as to how much of a carnivore you are. Not much of one.

Gintonious wrote: »

but in terms of the stuff is produces it is not the worst, milk for instance is the top dog for that. But worse of them all is wheat, it can inflame your entire digestive system and cause serious issues in later life, no matter what the source.

Cant argue with that. The greatest lie we've been sold health wise is the absolute myth that milk is somehow a health food , when its probably the most mucus forming food there is.

Gintonious wrote: »

Not seeing or not wanting to see how people can eat meat is up to them, if it is an animal cruelty thing then so be it, thats up to them, but meat is not bad for you, and as humans we have been eating it for quite a while, so much so that our appendix is now useless to us.

To say meat is harmless is absurd, really it is. Theres just acres upon acres of information which says otherwise, study after countless study which tells a different story. In small , neglible quantities its probably not going to make a whole lot of difference, say the same way the odd couple of pints will , but start drinking every day and you'll know all about it. Ditto if you eat meat every day. For me , I couldnt care less about animal rights. I view this simply the same way as what fuel to put in my car. I drive a diesel , so it gets diesel fuel. For a human to eat meat is the same as fuelling a diesel car with petrol. I wish to burn the cleanest , most efficient fuel for my body. Like I've said a few times at this stage , Ive done both ways , and I know which works. You'll find very very few people in my position who've experienced both and returned to a full on meat eating diet.

I think if those on a meat eating diet could experience what Ive ( and countless other vegans ) experience , they would switch. No question. This is simply an issue of practicality, consuming the best fuel for your body and getting the best return.

So with that, what I eat at the moment...

Pre workout
2 Bananas, glass of water. ( 200 cals )

Post work out shake -
Almond milk ( from approx 150g of soaked almonds )
40g of Sunwarrior protein
Ground chia seeds
Overall ..approx 1200-1300cals

Four glasses of green juice ( approx 300 cals overall, 50 each )
Pineapple ( 300 cals )

Lunch
Salad of some variety. This would obviously vary but todays consisted of ..
Sprouted quinoa
Spinach
Raw tomato sauce
Alfalfa
Overall about 300-400 cals.

Snack
2 Avocados ( approx 500 cals ) or a couple of bananas.

Second post workout shake
Sunwarrior protein
Nuts
Chia seeds
Usually about 900 cals , this one would smaller than the morning one consisting of less nuts, same for the workout as a whole which would be lighter.

Dinner
A melon 250 cals.

Overall number of cals , in and around 3,500 to 4000.
Obviously this would vary from day to day but its a fair approximation as to what I eat. Its very feasible ( and a lot healthier ) to build muscle this way , trust me guys. The issues I had with a high meat/animal products diet ( gas , bloating , heartburn , constipation, poor skin amongst others ) simply dont exist with this one.

anbrutog

Gintonious wrote: »

Well we never said tat you had to either pick mean or the fruit veg etc, which is what this seems to be about now, maybe our own thread? although it has probably been done to death at this stage.

The "healthier" argument is also an interesting one, as nutrient and vitamin deficiencies in vegans and vegetarians are higher, they can be low in the likes of iron, zinc, omega-3 fats, and B12, all of which are found in meat, this is more of an every day thing, so for those who are training, meat provides things like creatine and glutamine, which aids muscle repair.

As in relation to the OP's original question, supplementation is going to be a big help for you, weather it is protein or essential oils. If it is weight training then a vegan friendly glutamine would really help, and a suitable oil for your joints or indeed any of the ones I have mentioned above.

If bulking is your thing, then beans are a large help, along with lentils and avocado, oils and nuts, but increasing intake of nuts can lead to intolerance's and eventually you could develop an allergy to it.

The deficiences arguement doesnt necesarily mean that a vegan diet is unhealthy , simply that the person has neglected to eat a balanced vegan or vegetarian diet. You can get all the nutrients you need without ever going near meat ( B12 included , as my doctor will confirm )
I think its important though to mention that there definitely are benefits to eating meat , but overall I think the negatives far outweigh the positives.

Ive never come across anyone who eats a lot of nuts becoming intolerant however. If they are going that way, Id argue that its due to them not soaking before hand, or usually them having another underlying issue like candida perhaps.

Frank Bullitt

anbrutog wrote: »

Believe me , Ive done more than enough research on the effect that meat has on the body. Its my firm opinion thats worldwide increase in consumption is the main reason behind the explosion in cancer rates ( colon in particular ) and other degenerative diseases. Why is that we're even debating this issue ?? Surely the doubt alone is enough for people to question its worth?? I dont ever hear people debating whether broccoli is good for you or not...

Well would you say that eating broccoli that has been sprayed in pesticide is good for you?

Your opinion on meat increasing cancer rates probably has some truth to it, but again, this has to do with what the animals are fed, so if they are feed stuff with chemicals, you will also get some of them, in the same way that if fruit or veg is sprayed, you will ingest it. This is not exclusive to meat but to food.

If we are going to get into a cancer debate related to meat, grass fed beef has been shown to be very high in CLA, which is a very potent anti-carcinogen.

Really ?? You honestly think that eating a spinach and tomato salad will be as easy on your stomach ( and even compare in the mucus production stakes ) as a prime piece of grass fed beef?? The quality wont make any difference , only how well equipped your digestive system is break down each part of the food into its constituent parts. Which ours sadly isnt as we lack the machinery that a true carnivore posseses, prime cut or not, its irrelevant. Go eat a piece of roadkill WHOLE ( like a tiger would ) and that will answer your question as to how much of a carnivore you are. Not much of one.

Show you how much of a carnivore I am? Only after you go out and pick and grow your own vegetables and fruit.

I never said that meat would be easy on your stomach, but it's benefits on the body outweigh the cons.

Cant argue with that. The greatest lie we've been sold health wise is the absolute myth that milk is somehow a health food , when its probably the most mucus forming food there is.

Dairy is not a great idea, I'll agree on that one to a degree.

To say meat is harmless is absurd, really it is. Theres just acres upon acres of information which says otherwise, study after countless study which tells a different story. In small , neglible quantities its probably not going to make a whole lot of difference, say the same way the odd couple of pints will , but start drinking every day and you'll know all about it. Ditto if you eat meat every day. For me , I couldnt care less about animal rights. I view this simply the same way as what fuel to put in my car. I drive a diesel , so it gets diesel fuel. For a human to eat meat is the same as fuelling a diesel car with petrol. I wish to burn the cleanest , most efficient fuel for my body. Like I've said a few times at this stage , Ive done both ways , and I know which works. You'll find very very few people in my position who've experienced both and returned to a full on meat eating diet.

I think if those on a meat eating diet could experience what Ive ( and countless other vegans ) experience , they would switch. No question. This is simply an issue of practicality, consuming the best fuel for your body and getting the best return.

There are also studies that show the benefits of eating meat, full of iron, zinc and selenium, which breaks down chemicals and others in your body.

Obviously it's main benefit is it is high in protein, essential for recovery.

Frank Bullitt

anbrutog wrote: »

The deficiences arguement doesnt necesarily mean that a vegan diet is unhealthy , simply that the person has neglected to eat a balanced vegan or vegetarian diet. You can get all the nutrients you need without ever going near meat ( B12 included , as my doctor will confirm )
I think its important though to mention that there definitely are benefits to eating meat , but overall I think the negatives far outweigh the positives.

Ive never come across anyone who eats a lot of nuts becoming intolerant however. If they are going that way, Id argue that its due to them not soaking before hand, or usually them having another underlying issue like candida perhaps.

Well there is another good point, to get the full range of vitamins and nutrients, you have to be very planned and strict, this is where supplementation comes in but also where the cost goes up as well, although can you put a price on your health?

I think we can agree on the moderation front, also on the variety one as well. For me I eat a very varied diet that includes lots of fruit and veg, nuts and meat, I don't over eat anything mainly because I like variety in my food.

anbrutog

Gintonious wrote: »

Well would you say that eating broccoli that has been sprayed in pesticide is good for you?

Most definitely not. I try to eat organic whenever possible. Its not always easy , but fundementally what Im talking about is not how the food has been grown or farmed , but the food itself and how it affects us.
Thats not to belittle the importance of being conscientious towards spraying fruit and veg, but I think thats for another argument.

Gintonious wrote: »

Your opinion on meat increasing cancer rates probably has some truth to it, but again, this has to do with what the animals are fed, so if they are feed stuff with chemicals, you will also get some of them, in the same way that if fruit or veg is sprayed, you will ingest it. This is not exclusive to meat but to food.

I disagree. Again , it all boils down to how your body's equippped to break down those tough strands of animal protein. Your digestive system is gonna have to work hard.
Real hard. It pulls out all the stops. This WILL tire you to some degree.Then theres the acid by-products which require your body to produce mucus to negate its harmful effects.
For these reasons , meat aint a good idea. Simple as that really.
If its full of hormones , antibiotics or other such crap then yes, thats gonna make the whole process worse.
But its the digestive process that the body undergoes when consuming meat , in and of itself , regardless of how its been farmed, is the reason why we as humans , should really moderate its consumption.

Gintonious wrote: »

If we are going to get into a cancer debate related to meat, grass fed beef has been shown to be very high in CLA, which is a very potent anti-carcinogen.

Possibly this is true, Ill take you on your word. But again , do the benefits outweight the downsides ??
I would suggest not, theres plenty of other ways of staving off cancer without going near meat.

Gintonious wrote: »

Show you how much of a carnivore I am? Only after you go out and pick and grow your own vegetables and fruit.

My point had nothing to do with catching and killing your own meat. More to do with eating meat in its raw natural state, like any carnivore does. Which I do with fruit and veg.
For this reason , humans are really fake meat eaters.

Gintonious wrote: »

I never said that meat would be easy on your stomach, but it's benefits on the body outweigh the cons.

I disagree. To be honest, in your case , I think in your case it just doesnt that make that much of a difference.
Id say if you eat meat once or twice a week , its in such neglible quantities that its just not going to cause any major harm. Similar to the odd few pints here and there.
Its not going to kill you. But drink every day , well..

Its the guys who are bodybuilding eating 12+ eggs a day , gobbling chicken breasts downed down with gallons of milk and whey that have the problem. That aint healthy in my book.

This debate started off really as the best way to get your protein, and to gain lean muscle ( of whatever size )
I merely wish to demonstrate two things, namely...

1.You dont need meat to do this, this can be done via a raw vegan diet.
2.Overall, its a far healthier way of doing it than the traditional meat eating way. I've described why I think this is a bad idea , namely the effect this has on your digestion , amongst other reasons.

Gintonious wrote: »

Dairy is not a great idea, I'll agree on that one to a degree.

Most definitely. Theres an arguement for the health benefits of raw milk, but the homegenised , pasteurised crap that passes for milk these days is nothing but junk.

Gintonious wrote: »

There are also studies that show the benefits of eating meat, full of iron, zinc and selenium, which breaks down chemicals and others in your body.
Obviously it's main benefit is it is high in protein, essential for recovery.

All them nutrients can be obtained from a vegan diet. Again , no need to go near meat if you so wish.

anbrutog

Gintonious wrote: »

Well there is another good point, to get the full range of vitamins and nutrients, you have to be very planned and strict, this is where supplementation comes in but also where the cost goes up as well, although can you put a price on your health?

I think we can agree on the moderation front, also on the variety one as well. For me I eat a very varied diet that includes lots of fruit and veg, nuts and meat, I don't over eat anything mainly because I like variety in my food.

Re being strict, ah I dont think so. Just eat plenty of varied fresh fruit , veg , nuts and seeds and you'll get everything you need, and then some...
I think most, if not all supplements are garbage to be honest. Expensive urine.

Zombienosh

De-railed thread is De-railed.

I wasn't asking about meat vs veg or if vegans can become as someone said "Muscle Machines" because they can, there are plenty of vegan weight lifters, bodybuilders & athletes.

I was asking for info or experience with supplements, reviews etc. I've come across some awful tasting stuff, also are there any supplements that are especially essential being vegan/veg.

Frank Bullitt

I disagree. Again , it all boils down to how your body's equippped to break down those tough strands of animal protein. Your digestive system is gonna have to work hard.
Real hard. It pulls out all the stops. This WILL tire you to some degree.Then theres the acid by-products which require your body to produce mucus to negate its harmful effects.
For these reasons , meat aint a good idea. Simple as that really.
If its full of hormones , antibiotics or other such crap then yes, thats gonna make the whole process worse.
But its the digestive process that the body undergoes when consuming meat , in and of itself , regardless of how its been farmed, is the reason why we as humans , should really moderate its consumption.

The concept of meat tiring you out etc, this I has more to do with quantity I believe, also, when we say meat, its a varied batch. If it is red meat then yes that requires more time to digest, but it also provides lots of Iron, zinc and protein, which again are vital for good health, so I would put these pros outweighing the cons.

Another point is from an article I read by Glenn King

Red meat is proportionally more digestible than many other food sources, such as flour and certain vegetables; however, it remains in the digestive system for a significantly longer period of time.

So while you are right that it takes longer to digest, it is fully digestible.

POSSY

anbrutog wrote: »

I just dont see how eating something like meat which is tough on your system to be a good idea. Sure , you could probably eat it once or twice a week and its not going to do any major harm, but personally I wouldnt even bother doing that , I just wouldnt see the point.

Aside from the energy issue , the main one really which made me stop was it being acidic/mucus forming on digestion. Its a concept which people either dont understand , ignore or simply dont believe in but for me it was a deciding factor. I just wish to eat as clean and as digestible as possible, I just dont see how meat or animal products enter into this realm at all.

As an aside , why does nearly every thread on veganism anywhere I've seen have to degenerate into meat eaters sticking their oar in, telling us that we're unhealthy , we're this or we're someother thing??

Note Im talking in general terms , and not specifically to this thread ( although it could arguably apply )

Before I say anything I just want to say I'm not trying to jump in on this thread (as it's been very interesting to see the two different sides... although given about 520 chickens die per year for my dietary needs I'm obviously not a vegan!)

I think the difference in the two arguments is pretty much bolded. You eat with digestion in mind whereas I feel the other posters are eating with a more 'nutrition focused' state of mind, so to speak.

Also, I feel it's important that the difference between red and white meat be mentioned. Everyday at work when I'm having my lunch (which I cook and bring in) of a chicken fillet, egg and mixed salad, I'm informed by (uninformed) people about how unnatural it is to a) eat the same thing everyday b) eat meat everyday and c) eating too much protein is bad for you.

Now I will admit eating lots of red meat can increase risk factors for heart disease and cancer (studies have indicated) and can lead to formation of fatty liver disease, but it's clear people can't/don't differentiate between red meat and white meat/fish.

If the vegan were to say to me eating red meat isn't the best for you, I would be inclined to agree but to tar all meats with the same brush is a real oversight

cormie

I don't think it's fair to say anbrutog or anyone similar isn't coming from a more nutritional based approach also. We all want the best nutrition, its just anbrutog seems to be getting theirs in a completely clean manner which will naturally benefit their digestive system and even though he/she doesn't appear to care much about the welfare of animals (which is rare for somebody eating such a diet), it's also having a really positive effect on so many other elements of overall health/society such as environment and of course the ethical side of things too.

I try to eat as close to a raw vegan diet as possible, as personally, I believe it makes sense for the reasons pointed out previously. I don't buy any animal products but I'm not completely strict in that if I visit someone and they happen to have made me something containing either, well mainly fish/white meat that's not the cheap stuff, I'll have a bit. My will power isn't the strongest when it comes to food and I don't eat as well as I know I could but according to "medical" diagnosis from recent tests from my GP, all my levels are as they should be.

I feel there's a lot of room for improvement and when I do maintain a fully raw vegan diet for even a few days straight, I definitely feel the benefits.

Jimoslimos

anbrutog wrote: »

Believe me , Ive done more than enough research on the effect that meat has on the body. Its my firm opinion thats worldwide increase in consumption is the main reason behind the explosion in cancer rates ( colon in particular ) and other degenerative diseases. Why is that we're even debating this issue ?? Surely the doubt alone is enough for people to question its worth?? I dont ever hear people debating whether broccoli is good for you or not...

The increase in cancer rates is due to;
a) People living longer
b) Better technology to detect it

Vegans whine about meat-eaters attacking their diet whilst posting inaccurate shít about meat:rolleyes:

No skin off my back if you can't enjoy some of the tastiest, nutritious food on the planet but lay off the bad science in trying to justify it to yourself.

cormie

Anyone else think meat on its own isn't particularly tasty and it's the vegan oils, herbs and spices that make all the difference?

Frank Bullitt

cormie wrote: »

Anyone else think meat on its own isn't particularly tasty and it's the vegan oils, herbs and spices that make all the difference?

This is another thing, Vegans generally try to say that what they eat is Vegan so its almost an exclusive way of claiming the food.

For me (a meat eater) I don't care if food is "Vegan" or not, its food, simple as that, I have the opportunity of more variety in my diet than a Vegan, as I have quite a lot more to choose from.

A point made earlier

You honestly think that eating a spinach and tomato salad will be as easy on your stomach ( and even compare in the mucus production stakes ) as a prime piece of grass fed beef??

Put both of them together and you have a very complete and natural meal.

I said it as well, I eat a Vegan diet, with meat.

fatmammycat

This is an odd thread. Humans are omnivores by design, we're prefectly able to break down meat and fiberous plants and there's plenty of scientific evidence to suggest eating protein from animals is what allowed our prehistoric ancestors to develop brain function/size faster.
It's everything else we seem to have problems with, dairy, gluten, over processed foods, additives. Being vegan is hardly superior to eating a mixed diet. It might suit your ethics, but that is down to the individial. I don't eat farmed meat- my own personal choice– but I eat wild venison, rabbit and wild fish. This means my meat consumption is pretty seasonal. I don't think my diet is superior to anyone, but it works for me.

Mellor

anbrutog wrote: »

We dont have the digestive system that a tiger , a cat or a dog has , one that can break down meat far faster than we can as human beings.

Nor do we have the digest system of a horse, cow or gorilla. Who survive on large quantities of a few plant sources.

Hence why we are knackered when we eat a big steak , or after our turkey and ham Christmas dinner.

That's due to the portion size not the meat.
If you are dead set on blaming the content, well it really undermines your diet as Xmas is probably the meal where people eat the most types veg and the most quantity. Hmmm

The waste products of meats and other animal products are usually pretty mucus forming which will obviously bring its own problems.

What waste products?
What abouts veg waste that can't be digested.

So personally I eat lots of raw fruits, veg , nuts and seeds which are clean and easy to digest, rather than meat and animal products which rob me of vital energy via its digestive process.

Actually nuts and seeds aren't easy to digest. By natures design, they are supposed to pass through unharmed and be "planted". That's why they often ate visible on the other end and why high nut diets don't always co-relate to the calories eaten.


If you choose to not eat meat of ethical reasons or any other reason that's fine. But don't tell pretend its always better or that the human body isn't supposed to eat meat, as it just undermines your stance.

papu

Just watched an episode of Mythbusters where they proved that the tired feeling after eating was solely down to the number of calories eaten and not as the myth claimed "The Triptafen in the Turkey" Triptafen being an active ingrediant in some sleeping tablets. But this can be used against the arguement of meat proteins causing this "knackering" effect.:rolleyes:

I for one am delighted our ancestors ate meat I firmly believe it's what's got us where we are today it's how we've evolved , Its fantastic that these days people who choose to eat a meat free diet can rely on protein shakes and the knowledge we have now to obtain the protein needed from alternate sources.

ferike1

I googled vegan bodybuilders and while there were some impressive individuals out there it does seem to be a minority!

I love veg but love my meat too.