Dunnes settle with woman over wearing a Hijab

davet82

smash wrote: »

Well I'm sure if Muslims had some holidays which historically had a religious meaning but which are now are just commercial really, Dunnes would cater for whatever tat comes with the holiday. If there were enough Muslims here of course. Don't forget, this is a catholic country at the end of the day.

bit of a contradiction?

smash

davet82 wrote: »

bit of a contradiction?

Not really. Every shop in the country sells crap for Christmas and Easter because they're catholic holidays. Even if they are commercial.

Fratton Fred

Shenshen wrote: »

Funnily enough, it says so in the very leaflet you were linking to :

"Under the Acts, certain religious, educational and medical
institutions can give different treatment on the religion
ground. Certain employees or job applicants might receive
favourable treatment if it were necessary to maintain the
religious ethos of the institution.
These institutions can also take action against an employee if
they work against the established standards and traditions."

It also states :

"The Religion ground:
You are entitled to equal treatment at work no matter what your
religious beliefs are or even if you hold no religious beliefs."

As nobody working for Dunnes is permitted to wear head covering at work, she was treated equally.

She wasn't treated equally. Her beliefs dictate that she should cover her head. An Employer should respect that and accommodate her wherever possible. They didn't do that so, in effect, created a situation where a Muslim woman is having her equal access taken away.

Shankly88 wrote: »

It's a policy end of story. Just like you are not aloud have dyed hair in school or hair below the collar in some workplaces it's not predujice it's policy!!!!. This country has gone pc mad and it's doing my head in. It's a private business!! Not there to cater for peoples religious beliefs it's for profit!! And it pays taxes to this country so I for one am all for banning it.

Policy? does that make it right?

Should Guinness bring back their policy where they only employ protestants above a certain grade?

Maybe Dunnes should also introduce a policy of not employing anyone who is a bit dark skinned, in case it clashes with their uniform. Or even include skin colour in their uniform policy?

Companies, private or not, can not ignore equal opportunity laws.

davet82

smash wrote: »

Not really. Every shop in the country sells crap for Christmas and Easter because they're catholic holidays. Even if they are commercial.

True but alot of people see it as religious holiday so at the end of the day dunnes are promoting religion regardless...

the point is dunnes can go at it from a dress code stance but if they take the stance of alot people here 'to leave the religion at home' you'll find cases like this start to hold water

smash

Fratton Fred wrote: »

She wasn't treated equally. Her beliefs dictate that she should cover her head. An Employer should respect that and accommodate her wherever possible.

You believe an employer should accommodate individual people based on their beliefs and place these beliefs above their own business practice?

smash

davet82 wrote: »

True but alot of people see it as religious holiday so at the end of the day dunnes are promoting religion regardless...

the point is dunnes can go at it from a dress code stance but if they take the stance of alot people here 'to leave the religion at home' you'll find cases like this start to hold water

But that's not true. They're selling a product for profitability, not because they believe in it. And most of their products are food which they sell anyway. The holiday spin is just marketing.

davet82

smash wrote: »

You believe an employer should accommodate individual people based on their beliefs and place these beliefs above their own business practice?

i think an employer should accommodate common sense and good business practice, happy work = good worker, ethnic diverisity = more ethnic customers, the opposite thats happened here is alot time wasted, an employee been sacked, money wasted, bad publicity, possible loss of muslim customers...

i think its a no brainer if it was my business

davet82

smash wrote: »

But that's not true. They're selling a product for profitability, not because they believe in it. And most of their products are food which they sell anyway. The holiday spin is just marketing.

it depends on your point of view, a devout catholic wouldnt see it that way or an atheist might feel the religious songs being pumped out over there radio in dunnes is promoting religion, its very hard for people to leave religion at home, its all around us, just like god is

smash

davet82 wrote: »

i think an employer should accommodate common sense and good business practice, happy work = good worker, ethnic diverisity = more ethnic customers, the opposite thats happened here is alot time wasted, an employee been sacked, money wasted, bad publicity, possible loss of muslim customers...

i think its a no brainer if it was my business

But they did try and negotiate with her. But she refused and then stopped coming to work.

davet82 wrote: »

its all around us, just like god is

Haha, got a laugh out of that

davet82

smash wrote: »

But they did try and negotiate with her. But she refused and then stopped coming to work.


Haha, got a laugh out of that

i thought you would

look maybe dunnes got played like a fiddle but it was their own fault they should know better and at the end of day who really gives a flying fcuk what the girl wears on her head, thats my view in a nut shell

kraggy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If a uniform policy does not allow for headscarves, it is effectively discriminating against Muslim women. That is not acceptable.

If there is a fundamental reason why headwear cannot be worn then fair enough, but I can't think of any reason why working on a Dunnes checkout would mean someone cannot wear a piece of clothing that is a fundamental part of their faith.

How about a naturist? Some of them dont wear clothes because they believe we came in to this world naked and naked is how we should stay.

Should Dunnes have to accept their beliefs as well?

She hasn't a leg to stand on. Dunnes shouldn't have settled.

When westerners go to Muslim countries we have to abide by their rules. They seem to want what suits them both at home and abroad.

Fratton Fred

smash wrote: »

You believe an employer should accommodate individual people based on their beliefs and place these beliefs above their own business practice?

Do you agree that Guinness should re-instate their policy of only employing catholics in manual roles? I mean, if an individual wants to work there, they should convert or whatever, not follow their stupid religion.

Shouldn't they?

I believe that employers should accommodate, where possible, the religious and cultural practices so that they provide an equal opportunity for all people to work there. That is not some wishy washy liberlism (I am probably one of the last on here to be accused of being a pinko) that is the actions of a modern, democratic society. The 21st century is here, get used to it, not everyone in this country is a white Catholic.

What we have seen in this case and with the case at UCHG is a demonstration of the underlying xenophobia that too many people have in this country.

The Daily Mail would be proud.

davet82

kraggy wrote: »

How about a naturist? Some of them dont wear clothes because they believe we came in to this world naked and naked is how we should stay.

Should Dunnes have to accept their beliefs as well?

She hasn't a leg to stand on. Dunnes shouldn't have settled.

public nudity is against the law i'd choose a different example

Fratton Fred

kraggy wrote: »

How about a naturist? Some of them dont wear clothes because they believe we came in to this world naked and naked is how we should stay.

Should Dunnes have to accept their beliefs as well?

She hasn't a leg to stand on. Dunnes shouldn't have settled.

When westerners go to Muslim countries we have to abide by their rules. They seem to want what suits them both at home and abroad.

where do naturists worship? what do they believe in? Can a naturist walk down the road naked?

Sleepy

Were this to ever happen in a company of mine, I'd make the person prove that their deity existed before I'd back down. Courts be damned.

I've no problem with tolerating people's religious beliefs, I just don't accept that they're any more deserving of protection than my 4 year old's belief in the tooth fairy.

moneymad

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you agree that Guinness should re-instate their policy of only employing catholics in manual roles? I mean, if an individual wants to work there, they should convert or whatever, not follow their stupid religion.

Shouldn't they?

I believe that employers should accommodate, where possible, the religious and cultural practices so that they provide an equal opportunity for all people to work there. That is not some wishy washy liberlism (I am probably one of the last on here to be accused of being a pinko) that is the actions of a modern, democratic society. The 21st century is here, get used to it, not everyone in this country is a white Catholic.

What we have seen in this case and with the case at UCHG is a demonstration of the underlying xenophobia that too many people have in this country.

The Daily Mail would be proud.

are you on an hourly wage?

Fratton Fred

Sleepy wrote: »

Were this to ever happen in a company of mine, I'd make the person prove that their deity existed before I'd back down. Courts be damned.

A Muslim will give you a thousand examples of the presence of Allah. Are you able to prove them wrong?

Fratton Fred

moneymad wrote: »

are you on an hourly wage?

not any more, but I fail to see the relevance.

smash

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you agree that Guinness should re-instate their policy of only employing catholics in manual roles? I mean, if an individual wants to work there, they should convert or whatever, not follow their stupid religion.

But that would be a case of a company not hiring someone because of their religion. Dunnes would hire anyone, but there's a dress code that you must abide by. It's completely different. Being Catholic or Protestant doesn't mean you have to dress differently.

You keep going back to religion, and really nobody gives a shít about it. It's down to the dress code that Dunnes have and that her beliefs don't fit with. Her beliefs are also just that, a personal belief. Her religion does not require it, and being cultural doesn't matter as she's not really part of that culture. She's just newly converted.

smash

Fratton Fred wrote: »

where do naturists worship? what do they believe in? Can a naturist walk down the road naked?

Yes they can. But it's against the public dress code so they'll be done for it.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A Muslim will give you a thousand examples of the presence of Allah. Are you able to prove them wrong?

Yes. You could easily tell them you believe in a christian god and one of the commandments is that you shouldn't worship false gods. Then you could go in circles until someone gives up.

Shenshen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

She wasn't treated equally. Her beliefs dictate that she should cover her head. An Employer should respect that and accommodate her wherever possible. They didn't do that so, in effect, created a situation where a Muslim woman is having her equal access taken away.

Was she treated in exactly the same way all other employees are treated, yes or no?

The discrimination law does not demand special treatment for religious groups, but equal treatment.

Ush1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

She wasn't treated equally. Her beliefs dictate that she should cover her head. An Employer should respect that and accommodate her wherever possible. They didn't do that so, in effect, created a situation where a Muslim woman is having her equal access taken away.




Policy? does that make it right?

Should Guinness bring back their policy where they only employ protestants above a certain grade?

Maybe Dunnes should also introduce a policy of not employing anyone who is a bit dark skinned, in case it clashes with their uniform. Or even include skin colour in their uniform policy?

Companies, private or not, can not ignore equal opportunity laws.

Can you point out the law that they broke?

moneymad

Fratton Fred wrote: »

not any more, but I fail to see the relevance.

Are you unemployed?

Fratton Fred

smash wrote: »

But that would be a case of a company not hiring someone because of their religion. Dunnes would hire anyone, but there's a dress code that you must abide by. It's completely different. Being Catholic or Protestant doesn't mean you have to dress differently.

You keep going back to religion, and really nobody gives a shít about it. It's down to the dress code that Dunnes have and that her beliefs don't fit with. Her beliefs are also just that, a personal belief. Her religion does not require it, and being cultural doesn't matter as she's not really part of that culture. She's just newly converted.

So a company can bring in policy it likes, as long as it doesn't discriminate on religious grounds? so then a company's policy isn't the final word.

who says that Islam does not require a woman to cover her head? for every scholar that says it doesn't, there is another saying it does.

This woman believes that she is required to wear a Hijab. Dunnes are saying no Hijabs, therefore no they are indirectly saying, no Muslim women.

Ush1

davet82 wrote: »

i think an employer should accommodate common sense and good business practice, happy work = good worker, ethnic diverisity = more ethnic customers, the opposite thats happened here is alot time wasted, an employee been sacked, money wasted, bad publicity, possible loss of muslim customers...

i think its a no brainer if it was my business

Yes, but the point is they should be perfectly entitled to enforce their uniform policy if it is within the law. That's the real no brainer.

Shenshen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you agree that Guinness should re-instate their policy of only employing catholics in manual roles? I mean, if an individual wants to work there, they should convert or whatever, not follow their stupid religion.

Shouldn't they?

I believe that employers should accommodate, where possible, the religious and cultural practices so that they provide an equal opportunity for all people to work there. That is not some wishy washy liberlism (I am probably one of the last on here to be accused of being a pinko) that is the actions of a modern, democratic society. The 21st century is here, get used to it, not everyone in this country is a white Catholic.

What we have seen in this case and with the case at UCHG is a demonstration of the underlying xenophobia that too many people have in this country.

The Daily Mail would be proud.

So you compare a company who treats all their employees in exactly the same way to a company who used to treat people of different faiths differently and you assume they're the same thing?
Honestly?

kraggy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

where do naturists worship? what do they believe in? Can a naturist walk down the road naked?

What's worship got to do with it? Personal beliefs are personal beliefs. Why should religious beliefs supersede other beliefs?

A uniform is so called because it means "the same". A company wants to sell their products in a certain way, they've a right to do that. That includes presentation. If they want their sales people to convey a certain image they've every right to do so.

Take another example, how about someone with an offensive Tattoo on their face that offends a certain group in society. Should Dunnes be forced to allow him or her to continue in their job after getting the tattoo because it's representative of the employees beliefs?

smash

moneymad wrote: »

Are you unemployed?

Because Dunnes have an opening :pac:

davet82

smash wrote: »

Dunnes would hire anyone, but there's a dress code that you must abide by.

The ancient sacred parchment of the dress code?

i think dunnes compramising would have been easier and more fair?

Shenshen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So a company can bring in policy it likes, as long as it doesn't discriminate on religious grounds? so then a company's policy isn't the final word.

who says that Islam does not require a woman to cover her head? for every scholar that says it doesn't, there is another saying it does.

This woman believes that she is required to wear a Hijab. Dunnes are saying no Hijabs, therefore no they are indirectly saying, no Muslim women.

No, just no women who feel they need to wear a headscarf at work. Religion doesn't even come into it.
Same rules for everyone.