Make SUSI accountable

donalfo

bluesea wrote: »

I missed most of it, I heard one TD mention the ombudsman. Can this be watched later again?

there might be a simpler way but go here http://oireachtas.heanet.ie/CR3/
and scroll down to CR3_20121113-11.30.wmv thats the first hour of it.

Deirdre5

Read on the news that SUSI expects to have 30,000 of the 56,000 applicants sorted by the end of December.
Also, they're hireing 10 new staff members starting Monday, which brings the total number of staff up to over 100.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1113/students-grants.html

bluesea

donalfo wrote: »

there might be a simpler way but go here http://oireachtas.heanet.ie/CR3/
and scroll down to CR3_20121113-11.30.wmv thats the first hour of it.

Thanks for this, you can actually watch the whole TWO HOURS of it by clicking down on the further two links from what you posted above.

It was very interesting. The following is a brief synopsis of the meeting.

• SUSI started off with only 57 staff that has now increased to 175, 96 in head office and another 79 in the contact and document centre.

• They put out an European tender to outsource the documentation process and it was won by company in Cork called ALTRAM. Basically all the documents students send in actually go to this company in Cork where it is scanned into computers then it moves onto a merging queue, assessors then check to see if all documentation is in place, if it isn't a letter is generated out to the student. A TD questioned about all the missing documentation and who actually oversees the work of this company, I don't think a reply was given to that question.

• The appeals system is also outsourced and is carried out by Cork VEC due to their vast expertise as a unit with SUSI, they process the appeal, they then inform the student and SUSI HQ. If the student is still unhappy they can appeal to the National Appeals Board. To date there have been 1100 appeals only 500 have been processed. A TD asked how many appeals were lost in the system, no answer was given.

• With regards disputes over the adjacent and non-adjacent rates SUSI said students don't need to appeal but they should contact SUSI directly to get their applications reviewed.

• The issue regarding the ombudsman was raised a numebr of times and it was stated by SUSI that up until the present time the VEC is not subjected to the ombudsman remit but legislation is currently going through the Dail to ensure the VEC's become part of that remit.

• Only 3010 students have had their grants paid to date. Currently SUSI are doing weekly payments and they hoping to have 30,000 applications processed by the 21st December.

• When a student gets awarded their grant, they are asked to put in their bank details thereafter SUSI contacts their college on weekly basis to see if the student is attending. Apparently there is a huge delay from the time a student hears he/she is awarded and the length of time the money takes to get to their bank accounts.

It was asked what would be done differently next year and SUSI responded by saying they would wish for the scheme to be opened in March rather than June and also look at a firm closing date. They spoke about reducing the amount of documentation required by receiving it directly from the CAO, Revenue and Social Welfare.

One TD asked for one stop shops to be set up at colleges and universities so students could go for advise and guidence also for the VEC's to be accessible to help students due to their vast experience and local knowledge in the area in the past.


The issue re the cost of phonecalls to SUSi was addressed, they said it was a low cost number obviously some students are paying alot as different mobile companies charge different rates, they said they would look into it.

Brendan Griffin TD asked why didn't SUSI ask for scanned docuents and SUSI said that in the next few years they are hoping to drastically reduce the amount of documentation students will have to send in, alot of it will be done by email.


Another TD asked for a direct line to SUSI for TD's as one of them couldn't get through yesterday over an issue with a PPS number. An applicatn was told that someone else had the same PPS number as him, it turned out to be untrue.

Brendan Ryan TD said that SUSI was in Crisis Managment Mode. Another person said that if somethign isn't done soon to address the problems there will be a lot of angry students on the streets.

Another TD bought up the issue with students on Back To Education Allowance and how difficult it was for them to be registered and asked for something to be done for them. Also the issue arose for something to be done to alleviate the situation for those students who cannot access library and computer systems due to not being registered.

Thanks to Manga Salsa for bringing this meeting to our attention, the emails send in were very valuable to the TD's, Fildelme Healy said she had received 134 contacts from students since last Saturday. As I said above you may be interesed in watching it all yourselves as there was an awful lot covered in the two hour meeting.

Maggie 2

Thanks for that, Bluesea.

pauly58

" thereafter susi contacts their college on a weekly basis to see if the student is attending "

Are you sure you've got that right ? What Prizeman said was the college would contact susi, it's at 1.41 into the meeting.

bluesea

pauly58 wrote: »

" thereafter susi contacts their college on a weekly basis to see if the student is attending "

Are you sure you've got that right ? What Prizeman said was the college would contact susi, it's at 1.41 into the meeting.

I scribbled down notes as I was watching it so I may have made a mistake. I really don't know how that would work for students who are studying outside the country for example the UK.

GismoBaby

Was anything brought up about the students who have completed degrees and are doing say an honours add-on degree? Our college today has requested details from all these kind of students as many of them were told they werent entitled to the maintenance part of the grant but apparently the opposite is true so the SU were taking details to give to susi to get it sorted. if they dont do it before tomorrow then they have to do the appeal themselves. Hadnt realised this was as big a problem as it seems to be till we got the email today! Just another F***up to add to the list i suppose.

Heard Enda kenny on the radio this evening saying that 15000 applications were sent without complete documentation and this was a major hold up on all applications... id like to know how your application can hold up my application if you dont send your documents and i do!! It was a daft excuse for delays! thats all i heard though so maybe i picked it up wrong but i nearly choked on me chewing gum!

Going to see can i watch the committee now on some of those links as i didnt see it today and im in the mood for a good squabble!

Maggie 2

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1113/students-grants.html

AlexDublin

So what happens now???????

GismoBaby

AlexDublin wrote: »

So what happens now???????

My guess... nothing! Thats very negative of me isnt it...

donalfo

GismoBaby wrote: »

students who have completed degrees and are doing say an honours add-on degree

The grant regulations says that if you get the BTEA you are not entitled to maintenance grant,
'except in the case of a student in receipt of
the BTEA or VTOS allowance and the maintenance grant in 2009/10 who is
progressing to an approved add-on course, as defined in the Regulations, at
Level 8 of the framework of qualifications'

So if you were in first year in 2009/10 and now gone into the add-on year straight from the level 7 degree you are still entitled. I don't know if that applies to you, but it will to some.

GismoBaby

donalfo wrote: »

'except in the case of a student in receipt of
the BTEA or VTOS allowance and the maintenance grant in 2009/10 who is
progressing to an approved add-on course, as defined in the Regulations, at
Level 8 of the framework of qualifications'

Yup thats the bit that SUSI were messing up on for some students. they were refusing them the grant but they are entitled so now the SU are trying to get it sorted out. No it doesnt apply to me i only know about it cos we received the email from the SU in college about it today. Its no wonder theres a delay when they cant follow the guidelines!!

Annasopra

GismoBaby wrote: »

Yup thats the bit that SUSI were messing up on for some students. they were refusing them the grant but they are entitled so now the SU are trying to get it sorted out. No it doesnt apply to me i only know about it cos we received the email from the SU in college about it today. Its no wonder theres a delay when they cant follow the guidelines!!

SUSI don't actually understand the rules they are supposed to be following. They don't seem to be enforcing a specific part of these rules. This is going to be a major headache for them in a few months time because they are paying out in some cases where they shouldn't be!

donegal11

mango salsa wrote: »

SUSI don't actually understand the rules they are supposed to be following. They don't seem to be enforcing a specific part of these rules. This is going to be a major headache for them in a few months time because they are paying out in some cases where they shouldn't be!

In what cases are they paying out that they shouldn't be? And who's going to check once it's being awarded.

Annasopra

donegal11 wrote: »

In what cases are they paying out that they shouldn't be? And who's going to check once it's being awarded.

Sorry. I said that wrongly. I think that there might be some cases where SUSI have paid out and they shouldn't have. I have no direct evidence of this just something I noticed and I'm not giving any more details. I presume there would be an external audit of SUSI but also the Dept should be checking information on what SUSI is at.

namoosh

The main problem with SUSI is that it is run by CDVEC who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. Half the SUSI staff come from CDVEC the other half come from FAS. They won't talk to each other or co-operate with each other, they don't give a F**K about the students, have a sketchy idea of the rules and think they are god.

donegal11

mango salsa wrote: »

Sorry. I said that wrongly. I think that there might be some cases where SUSI have paid out and they shouldn't have. I have no direct evidence of this just something I noticed and I'm not giving any more details. I presume there would be an external audit of SUSI but also the Dept should be checking information on what SUSI is at.

Grand, But as far as paying out when they shouldn't it goes on every year and the opposite likewise, but the former will not get corrected once it's awarded. And I doubt it's audited and no one is going to correct it, hence the amount of chancers applying for the grant this year and not supplying supporting documentation. If I was in college and dropped out in final year(last) and started a new course this September and applied for the grant, if I was awarded it wrongly I would get it for the entire course there would be no rechecks next year.

The same goes for BETA it really depends on who is the deciding officer and how informed they are

head_honcho

Has anybody here got a TD to look in to their situation? One of my email replies from the Committee asked if I wanted him to look in to my application. Is this worthwhile has anybody found? thanks

Annasopra

head_honcho wrote: »

Has anybody here got a TD to look in to their situation? One of my email replies from the Committee asked if I wanted him to look in to my application. Is this worthwhile has anybody found? thanks

TDs have a special email address that they can send cases to. It seems from anecdotal evidence here that cases get dealt with quicker if TDs intervene. Charlie McConalogue has asked a good few people from here if they want him to make representations on their behalf.

Personally I'd be totally conflicted on this.

On the one hand - great, it works

On the other hand I'm not sure if I agree with a system that empowers TDs to get something done but disempowers the citizen. Ideally if you were trying to get SUSI to do something they would do it. In this case they are taking more notice of elected representatives then citizens. I'm also not sure if the role of a TD should be putting pressure on regarding individual cases or more about putting pressure on to change the overall system.

Let's think about this for a minute. SUSI have obviously decided that they will give priority to people who contact political reps. Why have they decided this? In whose interest is this? What about citizens who use SUSI but don't contact politicians.

Maggie 2

head_honcho wrote: »

Has anybody here got a TD to look in to their situation? One of my email replies from the Committee asked if I wanted him to look in to my application. Is this worthwhile has anybody found? thanks

I personally wouldn't go down this route. TD's shouldn't have the power to jump the queue. I appreciate the ones I emailed speaking to the enquiry on my behalf, as that is what they are elected for - to represent us.

bluesea

Maggie 2 wrote: »

I personally wouldn't go down this route. TD's shouldn't have the power to jump the queue. I appreciate the ones I emailed speaking to the enquiry on my behalf, as that is what they are elected for - to represent us.

I agree about this as well. I would hate to jump the queue in front of someone more needy. Maybe some intraventions from TD's may be warranted in certain instances i.e. where students are in real dire straits and in danger of dropping out

Annasopra

bluesea wrote: »

I agree about this as well. I would hate to jump the queue in front of someone more needy. Maybe some intraventions from TD's may be warranted in certain instances i.e. where students are in real dire straits and in danger of dropping out

I think interventions from TDs can also unnecessarily delay other applications too.

witchity2

namoosh wrote: »

The main problem with SUSI is that it is run by CDVEC who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. Half the SUSI staff come from CDVEC the other half come from FAS. .

Not that I dont agree with you, but you're wrong about the staff. Some are from CDVEC and some are from ABTRAM not FAS

cottage garden

Thank you Blue Sea for your synopsis of the Dail Committee Meeting & also thanks to Mango Salsa for bringing our attention to the committee meeting.
It all seems to be getting plenty of attention on the airwaves which hopefully will raise the pressure for a better performance from Susi.

Anything would be an improvement at this stage !!!!!!!!!!

Steodonn

Maggie 2 wrote: »

I personally wouldn't go down this route. TD's shouldn't have the power to jump the queue. I appreciate the ones I emailed speaking to the enquiry on my behalf, as that is what they are elected for - to represent us.

Is there even a queue ?

I know one person that has been paid and I entered by bank details before them and have heard the same thing from others at other stages of application

kaflin

GismoBaby wrote: »

Heard Enda kenny on the radio this evening saying that 15000 applications were sent without complete documentation and this was a major hold up on all applications... id like to know how your application can hold up my application if you dont send your documents and i do!!

Well seen as everytime someone sends back documents with something missing they gotta contact them and send a letter then that would eat up time. And that's time that could be spent dealing with someone else's case.

Hypothetically, if an incomplete case takes twice as long as just moving on someone who has all their documents then those 15,000 cases prevented 30,000 cases from potentially being processed.

GismoBaby

kaflin wrote: »

Well seen as everytime someone sends back documents with something missing they gotta contact them and send a letter then that would eat up time. And that's time that could be spent dealing with someone else's case.

Hypothetically, if an incomplete case takes twice as long as just moving on someone who has all their documents then those 15,000 cases prevented 30,000 cases from potentially being processed.

So do you think that everyone in there is doing the exact same job then and are lumped with a load of applications to deal with regardless if they are correct applications or incorrect? Surely that cant be so! How inefficient! I have little or no business knowledge but even i would see that basically one department should be doing the checking and splitting the applications into piles of correct or incorrect. Correct applications should move to the next department to sort out whatever the next phase was and keep moving through till the payment stage, whereas the incorrect applications should move to a seperate department who would deal with contacting the person etc where it would stay till everything was received. It seems quite basic to me that it should be dealt with that way so that incorrect applications wouldnt hold up the correct applications.
Its 8 weeks since i sent back my final course acceptance and I have still heard nothing and my application was correct, I wasnt asked for further documentation or anything. Its a complete joke whatever way they have it set up!

Xenophile

SUSI should have been established first day as a private sector company.

This type of administration is best suited to the private sector.

I hope that it will be privatised as soon as possible.

Ned Kelly 123

Xenophile wrote: »

SUSI should have been established first day as a private sector company.

This type of administration is best suited to the private sector.

I hope that it will be privatised as soon as possible.

Some of it is privatised. The call centre and the document receipt and scanning is run by a company called Abtran. It is on their website http://abtran.com/markets/education where they, and CDVEC, say that

"This is Education



Abtran delivers services to the Education Sector through in-house managed service and outsourced solutions. Our focus is on making it easy for students and reducing the costs of administration.

“Our principle (sic) purpose is to provide students with a better service and faster payments.”
Jacinta Stewart, CEO, CDVEC


This is Student Support


SUSI - (Student Universal Support Ireland)
Working with the City of Dublin VEC we are supporting the centralisation of processing, adjudication and award of higher education student grants through an easy to use online grant application system. This was previously a manual process.

An estimated 65,000+ new student grants will be processed in 2012.

This is Service Made Easy

• A quicker, easier and more transparent service for grant applicants.
• Economies of scale achieved in the management of the process"

Well that was the theory. I suspect that the problems are down to a mixture of both CDVEC and Abtran processes.

Annasopra

Xenophile wrote: »

SUSI should have been established first day as a private sector company.

This type of administration is best suited to the private sector.

I hope that it will be privatised as soon as possible.

I hope it's not.

It stays much more accountable to us as citizens if it is run by a state agency.

And we've seen that accountability this week

CEO dragged into Oireachtas
Our public representatives demanding improvements.

Nah - thanks anyway but privatisation is a bad idea.