Can you insurnce and drive a 'commercial' vehicle as a private user?

POE101

Does anyone out there own and use a 'commercial' vehicle/van as their everyday car? I am wondering if there is a cost saving in changing from a saloon car to a van (maybe SUV) as a general runaround. Are there savings to be made on tax/insurance etc?

Eric Cartman

POE101 wrote: »

Does anyone out there own and use a 'commercial' vehicle/van as their everyday car? I am wondering if there is a cost saving in changing from a saloon car to a van (maybe SUV) as a general runaround. Are there savings to be made on tax/insurance etc?

theres savings to be made on tax definitely , you can drive a 4.2 litre amazon and its still 310 a year , on insurance particularly if your young there are savings to be made but after youve a few years ncb and your 24-25 these start to drop off

166man

Legally no.

Illegally yes.

POE101

Thanks for quick responses...

166man, Whats the illegal part?

Our man in Havana

You cannot get commercial tax if you are not a business.

Stheno

POE101 wrote: »

Thanks for quick responses...

166man, Whats the illegal part?

Driving one as a private user.

Commercials are supposed to be used for commercial purposes only

POE101

OK so I'm currently unemployed - if I register as as a sole trader 'trading as' would I be covered? or is it the case that you should actually have two vehicles, one for business use and one for your private use?

Our man in Havana

You would need to register for VAT and income tax as a business.

Our man in Havana

Stheno wrote: »

Driving one as a private user.

Commercials are supposed to be used for commercial purposes only

Not an issue if you have private tax.

puzzle factory

Our man in Havana wrote: »

You would need to register for VAT and income tax as a business.

no you don't, they will ask you what you need the van for, they will give you a form to get stamped in the garda barracks and they will also loook for your prsi number, we have jeeps here on the farm and we're not registered for vat and have no problem taxing them, the only difference since they brought in the new law is you have to get a form stamped in the garda barracks the first time you tax a van and they want your prsi number.

POE101

Our man in Havana wrote: »

You would need to register for VAT and income tax as a business.

I think thats all part of registering as a sole trader - if so - I would not want to own (tax and insure) two vehicles, one for business use and one for private use so how does that work?

Stheno

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Not an issue if you have private tax.

Sorry, I meant in the context of taxing it commercially

POE101

puzzle factory wrote: »

... they will ask you what you need the van for, they will give you a form to get stamped in the garda barracks

Interesting - can you remember what the form was for? and are you covered to drive on public roads?

Our man in Havana

puzzle factory wrote: »

no you don't, they will ask you what you need the van for, they will give you a form to get stamped in the garda barracks and they will also loook for your prsi number, we have jeeps here on the farm and we're not registered for vat and have no problem taxing them, the only difference since they brought in the new law is you have to get a form stamped in the garda barracks the first time you tax a van and they want your prsi number.

They obviously do things differently in the kingdom.

In the midlands, they want proof of tax registration, goods only declaration, commercial insurance etc. I couldn't be arsed with all that so just taxed privately instead.

puzzle factory

POE101 wrote: »

Interesting - can you remember what the form was for? and are you covered to drive on public roads?

why would you waste money taxing something if your going to be driving around fields? of course you are, its a form to declare that you will be only using the vechical for work related purposes.

Our man in Havana

POE101 wrote: »

Interesting - can you remember what the form was for? and are you covered to drive on public roads?

Most likely the RF111A, Goods only declaration. This was always needed to tax as goods.

puzzle factory

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They obviously do things differently in the kingdom.

In the midlands, they want proof of tax registration, goods only declaration, commercial insurance etc. I couldn't be arsed with all that so just taxed privately instead.

they ask for your insurance policy alright, but your proof of tax registration isnt needed if you look at the form, and the goods only declaration is the form you sign your name and date on and get stamped at the garda barracks

Our man in Havana

Try telling that to the biddies in the tax office.

hi5

It seems to vary from county to county, here are the rules in Kilkenny.

http://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/Services/Motor_Tax/Taxation_of_Goods_Vehicles_and_Adapted_Goods_Vehicles.html

dgt

Commercials need commercial insurance with private tax if its as an everyday car.

I used to do that myself

Bpmull

Basically you have to tax the van privately unless you have a vat number or are a farmer with a herd number. Thats what I heard anyway. You can't just walk in and tax a van privately not anymore. Becoming a sole trader would not solve your problem as sold traders do not have vat numbers. Just buy a small engines van and tax in privately.

paddysdream

Well I have taxed jeeps for the last fifteen years and have never been asked for any of the above ;ie pps number, vat number(dont have this),proof of commercial insurance(which I do have),herd number(have this).
Have never heard first hand of people having to produce this,only second hand scare stories etc.
Just taxed the Landcruiser last week and all I was asked for was the money and the test cert.
Actually had last years insurance cert.(out about three weeks or so ) instead of the current one and it wasnt an issue.
Taxed it for the first time as the current owner only two years ago and not a peep ,only have you the money plus the rip off fee for the doe cert.
And yes,before anyone asks I do use it for everything ,even dropping the kids to school (has a childseat in the front most of the time).
Been through a few checkpoints with one of the kids in it and never a word.All this nonsense about using during work hours only is a load of ***** as far as I can see.
On a similar but unrelated issue I had a previous jeep insured with Hibernian (Aviva) and was assured by a senior employee(to whom I was leaving a considerable sum) that contrary to what a guard might say people sitting in the back(sans seat belts obviously) were insured and I was insured to carry them but that of course I would(could) be done for having passengers without seat belts.

Bpmull

paddysdream wrote: »

Well I have taxed jeeps for the last fifteen years and have never been asked for any of the above ;ie pps number, vat number(dont have this),proof of commercial insurance(which I do have),herd number(have this).
Have never heard first hand of people having to produce this,only second hand scare stories etc.
Just taxed the Landcruiser last week and all I was asked for was the money and the test cert.
Actually had last years insurance cert.(out about three weeks or so ) instead of the current one and it wasnt an issue.
Taxed it for the first time as the current owner only two years ago and not a peep ,only have you the money plus the rip off fee for the doe cert.

It really depends where you are taxing it you wouldn't get away with it in kilkenny you have to provide a vat number or herd number and that's first hand my parents are always asked for a vat number when insuring there company van. Some tax offices clearly are not as strict as others.

Wishbone Ash

Bpmull wrote: »

or are a farmer with a herd number

So how do the tillage farmers manage?

Yawns

POE101 wrote: »

OK so I'm currently unemployed - if I register as as a sole trader 'trading as' would I be covered? or is it the case that you should actually have two vehicles, one for business use and one for your private use?

If you register as a sole trader might that not have complications with receiving social welfare payments whilst you're unemployed?

Our man in Havana

I doubt it.

Yawns

well he would still get money but would they not flag his pps for questioning. IE hes claiming JA but registered as a sole trader. They call him for an interview? Or are the departments still not data sharing.

Bpmull

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

So how do the tillage farmers manage?

I really don't know the ins and outs of it I am not a farmer but I assume tillage farmers would be also be able to tax it commercially. I have a van and tax it privately as It is illegal to tax a commercial vehicle commercially if you are only going to use it privately. However my parents have a company and my mother said the last time she went to tax the company van she was asked for her vat number. clearly some tax offices are not as strict as others. The only reason i said about the herd number was I was talking to a farmer and he taxes his van commercially but said he is asked for his herd number.

CiniO

Bpmull wrote: »

Basically you have to tax the van privately unless you have a vat number or are a farmer with a herd number. Thats what I heard anyway. You can't just walk in and tax a van privately not anymore. Becoming a sole trader would not solve your problem as sold traders do not have vat numbers. Just buy a small engines van and tax in privately.

But strange.
Whether you are registered for VAT is not dependent if you are sole trader or not, but it depends on your turnover. Generally if you are below some threshold you don't need to register for VAT.

I can't see why some sole trader doing small business and having small turnover without VAT number wouldn't be allowed to have commercial vehicle.

Bpmull

CiniO wrote: »

But strange.
Whether you are registered for VAT is not dependent if you are sole trader or not, but it depends on your turnover. Generally if you are below some threshold you don't need to register for VAT.

I can't see why some sole trader doing small business and having small turnover without VAT number wouldn't be allowed to have commercial vehicle.

you are actually right there sorry my mistake if a business sole trader or company has a turnover above a certain threshold they can register for vat and get a vat number. I would assume if its a small sole trader without a vat number they can still tax there van as a commercial they would just have to prove to the tax office it is being used for the business.

paddysdream

Well in my local tax office(not far from Kilkenny!) you CAN just walk in and tax a van commercially.
Still waiting for someone on this thread to tell us that THEY were refused tax on a van jeep etc due to an inability to provide a vat number ,herd number etc.
I have never been asked for any of the above ,and anyways if asked can not you just give your pps number;I am sure that by the the time they get all those "computers to talk to one another" the wagon will be well worn out and residing in a scrapyard somewhere.
Taking where I live I know lots of people who are neither farmers or sole traders who have vans jeeps etc taxed(I presume!) and have never heard any of them complaining about this issue.

Bpmull

paddysdream wrote: »

Well in my local tax office(not far from Kilkenny!) you CAN just walk in and tax a van commercially.
Still waiting for someone on this thread to tell us that THEY were refused tax on a van jeep etc due to an inability to provide a vat number ,herd number etc.
I have never been asked for any of the above ,and anyways if asked can not you just give your pps number;I am sure that by the the time they get all those "computers to talk to one another" the wagon will be well worn out and residing in a scrapyard somewhere.
Taking where I live I know lots of people who are neither farmers or sole traders who have vans jeeps etc taxed(I presume!) and have never heard any of them complaining about this issue.

As I said it really depends on which tax office you go to and also who you get. All I am saying is last January when my mother went to Kilkenny tax office to tax their van she was asked for a vat number. Maybe she just got some strict person. But as you said there is a lot of people taxing vans as a commerical with no hassle. It's one of these rules not enforced and you would want to be unlucky to be refused.

Yawns

There was quite bit of coverage when that rule was brought in. Fair few people ringing into radio shows about how they were refused even tho they'd taxed it commercially for years prior. It does seem to be a hit n miss thing that varies from office to office.

sealgaire

you can drive a commerical legally.. too much untruths here.

Legally you have to tax it privately (based on engine size) and insurance is no different than getting private car insurance. you dont need to be a businness or trader

Skuxx

I tax my golf can commercially, I get a renewal letter in the post and tax it online, no problem! (I know you can't do this the first time)
I have never had any problems at check points either, the Gardai seem to leave it up to the tax offices to police it, as long as the disc is in date they don't seem to care for what purpose you are using the van!

paddysdream

sealgaire wrote: »

you can drive a commerical legally.. too much untruths here.

Legally you have to tax it privately (based on engine size) and insurance is no different than getting private car insurance. you dont need to be a businness or trader

Why do you have to tax it privately?
Seriously how many people never use their commercial van or jeep for private use?one or two percent?
How in all seriousness can a guard prove or even try to prove you were using it for private use ?And what exactly legally constitutes private use?
If I have the young lad in it going to school in the morning ,well I bring him herding sheep with me on the way there;ten o clock at night?running in to the vet, bringing lambs to the factory etc.
Not saying some jobsworth in a council office somewhere decides to run with their own interpitation of the law(like some guards) but lets be honest, if you cant get around this then you aint fit to drive the lad with the long ears never mind something on four wheels with an engine

Wishbone Ash

paddysdream wrote: »

How in all seriousness can a guard prove or even try to prove you were using it for private use ?And what exactly legally constitutes private use?

OK - you're in a queue to board a ferry to France with family and luggage in August! I'll let you take it from there.....

Regardless of the scenario, you seem to be unaware that you are required to be truthful when answering questions regarding taxation matters. Giving false information is an offence.

paddysdream

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

OK - you're in a queue to board a ferry to France with family and luggage in August! I'll let you take it from there.....

Regardless of the scenario, you seem to be unaware that you are required to be truthful when answering questions regarding taxation matters. Giving false information is an offence.

To take it from there;just running over to europe to look at a few pedigree rams ,buy a tractor etc etc ,need the wife to come as she legally owns half the farm and its the young lads future !!That answer it for you ?lol
What about all the tarmac layers and tool sellers with vans(seem to have given up on the auld crew cabs) ?Do they have vat numbers or give their pps numbers etc when taxing?
ps luggage in the back of my Landcruiser would be rather smelly by the time you would reach France
On a serious note,I believe in the real world scenario whereby you tax on the basis of "well I didnt know any better" or "everybody is doing it".
Too many people on here must not live where the rest of us do;ie concerned about such triviality as how to give the government lots more in motor tax

chasm

CiniO wrote: »

But strange.
Whether you are registered for VAT is not dependent if you are sole trader or not, but it depends on your turnover. Generally if you are below some threshold you don't need to register for VAT.

I can't see why some sole trader doing small business and having small turnover without VAT number wouldn't be allowed to have commercial vehicle.

Would a tax clearance certificate cover a sole trader?

From the Motor Tax section on environ.ie:
Circular Letter MT 4 2010
"It is essential that all motor tax offices follow all the guidelines laid out in this circular, in particular in relation to inspection of the vehicle and the “used for the conveyance of goods or burden in the course of trade or business” condition.

Having regard to Article 3 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992, which provides that a licensing authority must be satisfied that a vehicle is correctly taxed, the applicant, in particular in relation to small vans and adapted goods vehicles, should be asked for supporting documentation which can include but is not limited to:
- evidence of registration for VAT;
- a Tax Clearance Certificate;
- a commercial insurance certificate;
- a copy of their “Notice of Tax Registration Form".

Form RF 111A Goods Declaration Form has been revised and is attached. This supersedes the previous version issued. It now requires an applicant who is applying for a vehicle to be taxed at the goods rate to provide a Revenue registration identity number to confirm that he or she has a business registered for tax purposes. All applicants should be asked to complete this form and be made aware that if the vehicle is used in any private capacity it must be taxed at the private rate. Please note the wording must not be changed on this form.

It is, of course, open to a motor tax office to seek additional documentation from the applicant if required."

CiniO

chasm wrote: »

Would a tax clearance certificate cover a sole trader?

From the Motor Tax section on environ.ie:
Circular Letter MT 4 2010
"It is essential that all motor tax offices follow all the guidelines laid out in this circular, in particular in relation to inspection of the vehicle and the “used for the conveyance of goods or burden in the course of trade or business” condition.

Having regard to Article 3 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992, which provides that a licensing authority must be satisfied that a vehicle is correctly taxed, the applicant, in particular in relation to small vans and adapted goods vehicles, should be asked for supporting documentation which can include but is not limited to:
- evidence of registration for VAT;
- a Tax Clearance Certificate;
- a commercial insurance certificate;
- a copy of their “Notice of Tax Registration Form".

Form RF 111A Goods Declaration Form has been revised and is attached. This supersedes the previous version issued. It now requires an applicant who is applying for a vehicle to be taxed at the goods rate to provide a Revenue registration identity number to confirm that he or she has a business registered for tax purposes. All applicants should be asked to complete this form and be made aware that if the vehicle is used in any private capacity it must be taxed at the private rate. Please note the wording must not be changed on this form.

It is, of course, open to a motor tax office to seek additional documentation from the applicant if required."

In this post you found out two major problems IMHO.

1. Requirement for "evidence of registration for VAT" is not worded in mentioned legislation Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992 neither in any other Law regarding taxing vehicles.
It's just pure invention of some motor tax offices which decided they will ask for is as a proof that someone is using his vehicle in course of trade or business. But in fact, considering this requirement doesn't have any grounds in Law, this requirement can be conquered in court, with help of any reasonable solicitor.

2. Goods only declaration which motor tax offices are asking you to sign, and to declare that vehicle will be used solely for business use (no private) is also invention of motor tax office.
Law in here is not 100% clear.
Take a look at this Act decribing motor tax classes and rates:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/act/pub/0010/print.html

Article describing vehicles in question (goods vehicles) is this one:

5. Vehicles (including tricycles weighing more than 500 kilograms unladen) constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any other description in the course of trade or business (including agriculture and the performance by a local or public authority of its functions) and vehicles constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement by or in which goods being conveyed by such vehicles are processed or manufactured while the vehicles are in motion:

It clearly says that vehicles must be used for convoyance of goods in course of trade or business, but it never says it must be used only for this purpose.
So it leaves ground to interpretation, that those vehicles in addition to being used for business purpose, can be used also for private purpose.

To make this argument even stronger take a look at definition of some other types of vehicles. F.e a hearse or taxi

6. Vehicles other than those charged with duty under the foregoing provisions of this Part of this Schedule:
(a) any vehicle which is used as a hearse and for no other purpose,
€95
(b) any vehicle (excluding a taxi) which is used as a small public service vehicle within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1961 , and for no other purpose,

Here we have clearly stated that vehicle can be used for certain use (hearse, taxi) and for no other purposes.
So it's perfectly clear that they can't be used for private use.
But as you can see on decrioption of goods vehicles, there is no such requirement, so interpretation of this act is not 100%.

I'm pretty confident that a good solicitor would be able to prove in court, that according to this Act, it's not illegal for a goods vehicle taxed commerically which is being used for comercial purposes normally, to be used for private purposes as well from time to time.

Unfortunately courts and especially good solicitors cost plenty of money and no one is going to start a law machine against state run motor tax offices to save few hundred quid on motortax.
Sad but true.

POE101

Many thanks again to all contributers. Clearly there is an ambiguity open to interpretation and local dept offices seem to be interpreting in different ways. I guess I will take my chances and buy a second hand van (likely to be a Toyota Landcruiser SWB) and see what happens. I will also set myself up as a sole trader. I know that if a sole trader's income (turnover?) exceeds something like €37000 he/she is obliged to register for vat however I also think I think that sole traders can voluntarily register for VAT regardless of income. I have no idea at this stage what income I will manage to generate but at least turning up at someones door to do some work in a van is better that turing up a mercedes saloon :-).

Anyone got any comments on the Toyota Landcruiser ~2006 or other as a general purpose vehicle?

Boskowski

Missus works in motor tax, I just asked her the question.

She agrees it varies between motor tax offices depending on how sharp the auditing practices are in the particular office. The people at the counter will mostly do what the auditors will allow them to do.

But bottomline is if you register for commercial the first time she wouldn't do it without it being a van or equivalent, you having a goods declaration (RF111something) and recent proof from revenue that you're self-taxed like a VAT number, herd number, C2 card (whatever that is).

Oh and you're not meant to drive a commercial for private purposes although its obviously hard to prove you weren't.
She says don't get caught driving on a Saturday night into town all spruced up with the missus in the passenger seat. She says the guards will pull you up on that.

She also says all this will considerably tighten up in the very near future (2013), same as the whole declaring off the road thing practice. They're losing significant moneys to such practices and they will put a stop to all that.