Is Ireland right-wing or left-wing?

Richard Hillman

I think it's subjective depending on what country you are in. If Fine Gael were in America they'd be considered left wing. If the Democrats were in Ireland they'd be considered very right wing. Fianna Fail in,America would be communists.

Here we have an extremely left wing media

Duggys Housemate

9959 wrote: »

We're talking Ireland here, not some socialist utopia.
Was the 'corruption' which got us into this present mess, left-wing corruption?

It was a mixture of private greed and public sector incompetence. The latter is remembered by all private sector workers, the former by the public sector.

A bit of the ole regulation of credit wouldn't have gone amiss.

9959

K-9 wrote: »

Its the anti Catholic, liberal bias in the meejia I blame.

'Dublin meejia', surely.

Duggys Housemate

9959 wrote: »

'Dublin meejia', surely.

Is this deliberate misspelling of media here relevant? If someone claimed the Us media were white centric, and someone else said the "white meedja, surely" would it be an acceptable argument. Are we assuming that non-standard accents indicate stupidity, and is it relevant to the argument?

9959

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

It was a mixture of private greed and public sector incompetence. The latter is remembered by all private sector workers, the former by the public sector.

A bit of the ole regulation of credit wouldn't have gone amiss.

....or proper regulation of financial institutions, sorry we did have that, it was called 'light-touch regulation', another invention of the 'Right', or was that Left-Wing too, come in IngazZagni.

Duggys Housemate

9959 wrote: »

....or proper regulation of financial institutions, sorry we did have that, it was called 'light-touch regulation', another invention of the 'Right', or was that Left-Wing too, come in IngazZagni.

The regulation was lighter than the powers available. Basically, the public sector was not competent to deal with it. And politicians are also public servants. When corrupt, thats public sector corruption too.

BOHtox

Shenshen wrote: »

So we're paying out to more people, doesn't mean the money the individual receives actually went up, does it?
They are still receiving way less than in most other European countries.

The average Jobseekers' allowance across the water in the UK is 56 pounds.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

All fee paying schools are private and almost all of our primary schools and secondary schools are privatley owned by churches. We have almost no State owned primary schools and a minority of second level schools are state owned through the VEC system.
Time perhaps for you to do some basic research before telling others to pay attention.

And also,
"The total number of students in second level in 2009 was 354,235, and subtracting the approximate 26,000 students in fee-paying schools, gives 328,235 students in non-fee-paying schools. "

http://factsaresacred.ie/memes/how-much-do-fee-paying-schools-save-the-irish-state/

95% of wages are paid by the state as is 91% of capital infrastructure. So regardless of what you perceive to be privately run, while they receive most of their funding from the state, I don't call them private. The teachers are public servants

Snickers Man

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I think it's subjective depending on what country you are in. If Fine Gael were in America they'd be considered left wing. If the Democrats were in Ireland they'd be considered very right wing. Fianna Fail in,America would be communists.

What I said. Left wing and right wing mean whatever you want them to mean

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Here we have an extremely left wing media

I'm sure John Waters, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Ian O'Doherty, Brendan O'Connor and all those other idiots writing drivel in the Irish Daily Mail would agree with you there.

I think they're a load of Flufflebums myself.

K-9

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Is this deliberate misspelling of media here relevant? If someone claimed the Us media were white centric, and someone else said the "white meedja, surely" would it be an acceptable argument. Are we assuming that non-standard accents indicate stupidity, and is it relevant to the argument?

Very relevant, its a quote from Father Ted when the 3 bishops visit and one of them ends up with the Holy Stone of Clanrickard up his arse for going on about the anti Catholic, leftie, liberal meejia.

9959

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The regulation was lighter than the powers available. Basically, the public sector was not competent to deal with it. And politicians are also public servants. When corrupt, thats public sector corruption too.

That's a neat twist.
I've heard of blaming the public sector for most of our ills - you can read that in the Sindo every week - but you go one better.
Cowan, Coughlan, Ahern, McCreevy, Dempsey, Lenihan not forgetting Gormley, Ryan etc.... it wasn't that shower that brought us to where we are now....... it was......
THE PUBLIC SECTOR

By the way, love the line"The regulation was lighter than the powers available."

I believe that the regulation of financial institutions and transactions were as light as McCreevy wanted them to be - feather light.
If you don't believe that, then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.
Good Luck.

Celly Smunt

we're left wing on the wrong things and right wing on the wrong things.We need to rotate.

Son Of A Vidic

Qualitymark wrote: »

Is Ireland right-wing or left-wing?

I'd say Ireland is rather 'wingless/ruderless' tbh. How else can you explain the selection of clowns under different guises, that have and are attempting to run the country.

Nodin

K-9 wrote: »

Very relevant, its a quote from Father Ted when the 3 bishops visit and one of them ends up with the Holy Stone of Clanrickard up his arse for going on about the anti Catholic, leftie, liberal meejia.

Actually, it was because he touched Fr Jack in the process....

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

Actually, it was because he touched Fr Jack in the process....

Yeah, well that too.

Solair

Modern Irish politics doesn't really fit a US or UK style simplistic right vs left model at all.

Our whole political system was designed to create a consensus politics that is generally very centrist. Multiple views can be represented simultaneously by the PR-STV voting system and the multi-seat constituency system.

There also hasn't really been much of a history of left vs right conflicts in Ireland. They're more common in places that had large industrial bases like England, France, Belgium, Germany etc.

Ireland had a bit of a brush with that kind of stuff during the great lock outs and the rise of the Labour movement but since the foundation of the state that became less and less of a feature.

The Irish population was extremely conservative from the 1920s to the 1980s on social issues. That was reflected in the voting patterns. If we'd had first past the post, it would have been amplified even more so.

The 1990s, 00s and 10s are showing a much more mature use of the PR-STV system which is making the country even more centrist.

As for Ireland's economics, they flick between centre right and centre left. There's a long history of pretty massive state intervention in the economy here over the decades.
There's also significant public expenditure on social services, even if the provision of them isn't as good as some continental countries.

I think what you're seeing at the moment is a pretty dramatic shift.
The public seems to be a lot more left wing on social issues, while it's becoming a lot more right wing on issues like law and order and economics.

I don't think there's anything particularly beneficial to over simplification of political choices. That's what the US and UK system tend to do.

Just because someone's an economic conservative doesn't necessarily mean that they also agree with say religious fundamentalism.

The Irish system allows people to pick and chose and be much more a la carte about political philosophies and I think it is (despite its faults) a pretty decent system.

I think the system's starting to function as it was probably intended to now that we have gotten away from blind loyalty to FF or FG due to the civil war legacy and we are starting to see a MUCH broader diversity of opinion being represented in the Dail. That's exactly how PR-STV was intended to work! It was amazing that the FF vs FG setup continued for so long given the structures that were in place.

caste_in_exile

It's true though you cannot fly without two wings, so important to strike a balance though I am kiteòg so maybe my left wing is my better wing.. I notice I often lean to that side due to the uncontrollable nature of my predetermined flightpath

Duggys Housemate

9959 wrote: »

That's a neat twist.
I've heard of blaming the public sector for most of our ills - you can read that in the Sindo every week - but you go one better.
Cowan, Coughlan, Ahern, McCreevy, Dempsey, Lenihan not forgetting Gormley, Ryan etc.... it wasn't that shower that brought us to where we are now....... it was......
THE PUBLIC SECTOR

By the way, love the line"The regulation was lighter than the powers available."

I believe that the regulation of financial institutions and transactions were as light as McCreevy wanted them to be - feather light.
If you don't believe that, then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.
Good Luck.

McCreevy hadn't been in power for a decade. The central bank had a regulator. He was as useful as tits on a bull. And politicians are public sector workers. Most of the greed was the top end of the private sector , the overall mismanagement was public sector.

9959

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

McCreevy hadn't been in power for a decade. The central bank had a regulator. He was as useful as tits on a bull. And politicians are public sector workers. Most of the greed was the top end of the private sector , the overall mismanagement was public sector.

Can we agree when pol corrs, columnists, pundits and broadcasters attack, bash and malign public sector workers, that they're NOT talking about politicians?

I don't believe that this current - pre-budget - bout of public sector bashing is aimed at politicians, in fact it's an attempt to goad politicians into abandoning the Croke Park agreement.

Why would one side (politicians) be encouraged to put the boot in to another side (Public Sector Workers), if they're both (according to you) on the same side?

No.
I believe the public reserve a special and deserved opprobrium for our politicians, which is not to be confused with their views - good, bad or indifferent - on the public sector, or what the vast majority of people believe to be, public sector workers.

poeticseraphim

Ireland is very divided. It is why we end up having so many coalitions.

Qualitymark

Nice discussion. Keep talking and thinking, lads.

K-9

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Ireland is very divided. It is why we end up having so many coalitions.

I don't think the parties are all that different now, compared to the 80's or coalitions before that. Labour of the 70/80's make SF today look centrist. The ULA and Socialists are the only grouping that couldn't form a feasible coalition now. Coalitions last full terms now, unthought of even 20 years ago.

af_thefragile

Definitely left-wing like everything/everyone else lately...

Solair

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Ireland is very divided. It is why we end up having so many coalitions.

We have so many coalitions because of the electoral system we opted for. You really have to compare Ireland to Sweden, Norway, Finland, the Netherlands etc, not with de facto two-party systems like the USA, UK and France.

Countries that use proportional representation systems generally have coalitions. The system aims to elect a parliament that is reflective of actual public opinion. A simple majority system like in the UK effectively gives you only the opinion of the largest % of the vote. A PR system gives you more of a reflection of the whole spectrum of what people really want.

Compared to most countries, political opinion in Ireland is VERY definitely not dramatically divided. There's a remarkable consensus in politics here because everything rolls to the centre.

It's actually remarkable that we had so few coalitions in the past given the nature of the PR-STV system (the most open PR system in the world).

Normality in our voting system and political structures is coalitions. That's how it's going to be in future as people are finally starting to use the electoral system to its full potential.

Qualitymark

Discuss: there is no real opposition in Ireland - all parties are basically identical in their aims, ideals and methods.

super_furry

Sinn Fein like to give the impression that they're a genuine opposition but they base every single policy around opposing the government. They have no real alternatives and their history in government in Northern Ireland proves that if they ever did get into power they would quickly change their tone and become just another establishment party.

Conall Cernach

Qualitymark wrote: »

Discuss: there is no real opposition in Ireland - all parties are basically identical in their aims, ideals and methods.

This is true and they are all centre right or right.

super_furry

Right wing people think we're left wing, left wing people think we're right wing. In reality we're stuck firmly in the middle.

Shenshen

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Ireland is very divided. It is why we end up having so many coalitions.

I think the reason for coalition governments being the norm is to be found in the election system.
First past the post leaves no room for more than 2 viable candidates.
Any form of weighted voting, be it here or in places like Germany, will much better reflect the interests and issues of the electorate, but will return a more fractured group of elected representatives, hence the coalitions.

I don't really see that as a bad thing, on the contrary. Less votes lost, more opinions heard, better representation for minorities, as representation goes a coalition is an indicator of a working system.

Fromthetrees

I think we're centrist populist for the most part. The Irish voter is generally quite myopic, many voters are simply obsessed with local issues.

We're going to cut the number of tds by about 8 I think, maybe those 8 places should be given to a national list system, these 8 people shouldn't be a member of a political party and because they would be voted in nationally they would have a mandate to concentrate on national issues.

I just want some 'normal' (highly qualified individuals in a certain field) people voted in that won't concentrate at all on local issues, the current system is insane in some parts, where else in the world would you get a minister for health personally sorting out medical cards for people who live near him, maybe only in a banana republic.

kupus

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Ireland is very divided. It is why we end up having so many coalitions.

And it will continue to be divided because no one party is able to get in and effectively do what they want. Or what the people want.
example....

Unions have effectively blocked government progression due to their mouthpiece the Labour Party.

F' all cuts among the civil service, yet pensioners may get their free travel pass cut. Small businesses get tax rises, increased costs of everything. Gas, electricity, water, tax tax and more tax.

So again I say whats the point of trying to start a business when you can go from cradle to grave without having to work one day in your life.