Making a Documentary on The Famine

GRMA

brosy wrote: »

@Rhys, I am also of the opinion that it was a systematic genocide operating under the term of the Free Market or Laisse Faire economics. Thanks for links

A report was published a few years previously which called for collectivization of farms, as there were so many small ones things werent as profitable as they could be for the landlords, especially with the increased competition from places like America. Conveniently just a few years later there was a famine coupled with a whole raft of new laws which made it easier to evict people. Most notoriously the poor law which forced anyone who wanted aid from the govt to give up their land.

UCDVet

Rhys Essien wrote: »

OP,I dont know how much research you have done but this was Genocide of the Irish by the British.It suited the Brits to just call it 'The Famine'.There was a lot of food exported at the time.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-great-irish-famine-was-genocide/18156

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:An_gorta_Mor.jpg


There is also a great book here.

http://corkuniversitypress.com/Atlas_of_the_Great_Irish_Famine_/357/

Can you elaborate - I followed the first link but it didn't make any sense to me. It didn't say what the British did, just that it was 'a policy of mass starvation in Ireland'.

Did they come over and burn Irish fields or something?

phoenix999

The British exchequer spent a total of £9.5million on famine relief from 1845-49. It is estimated that over £30 million was needed to prevent large scale death.

By contrast Britain spent over £69 million on the futile Crimean War (1853-56)

Precious flower

This angle might be interesting: http://www.amazon.com/Long-March-Choctaws-Famine-Relief/dp/1582460655/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352049625&sr=1-10&keywords=the+irish+famine
It's about how the Native American's gave us money during the Famine.
Btw, I wish people would not come out with sentences like 'The British didn't do anything' blah blah. Don't you make accusations you can't support. If you read up on it, you'd know different.

Seaneh

UCDVet wrote: »

Can you elaborate - I followed the first link but it didn't make any sense to me. It didn't say what the British did, just that it was 'a policy of mass starvation in Ireland'.

Did they come over and burn Irish fields or something?

Educate yourself.

Chinasea

brosy wrote: »

^^^^^Will definitely check that out. Always good to get a 'foreign' perspective

Why so?

phoenix999

Precious flower wrote: »

This angle might be interesting: http://www.amazon.com/Long-March-Choctaws-Famine-Relief/dp/1582460655/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352049152&sr=1-9&keywords=The+Irish
It's about how the Native American's gave us money during the Famine.
Btw, I wish people would not come out with sentences like 'The British didn't do anything' blah blah. Don't you make accusations you can't support. If you read up on it, you'd know different.

Choctaw Nation donation is mentioned here, scroll down the page:

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/American_Donations

My name is URL

WileyCoyote wrote: »

That has been completley disproven, in fact there is no evidence that the Turks sent any help at all.

Disputed but not disproved afaik.

They're making a film about it so it must be true =p

http://www.nationalturk.com/en/ottoman-aid-to-ireland-in-19th-century-to-be-pictured-at-screen-with-famine-21672

Zebra3

phoenix999 wrote: »

As has been pointed out by some historians, one simply has to ask if the famine was occurring in Lancashire, England, would the Government have adopted the same policy? And the answer is always a big NO. But Ireland was out of sight and out of mind to the elite in London. Robert Peel tried his best to feed the starving and paid the price by being thrown out of office. Trevelyan was the real culprit and said it was 'God's judgement' on the lazy Irish. His policies led to huge loss of life.

It was policy in London at the time to drive down the populations in Ireland and Scotland and to boost the population of England so they would always dominate the Union.

The Ressurection of Hungary documents it fairly well.

phoenix999

My name is URL wrote: »

Disputed but not disproved afaik.

They're making a film about it so it must be true =p

http://www.nationalturk.com/en/ottoman-aid-to-ireland-in-19th-century-to-be-pictured-at-screen-with-famine-21672

Looks interesting, but the Amount sent by the Sultan was not £10,000 as incorrectly stated in the article, but £1,000. The reason being that no single individual was allowed to give more than the donation given by Queen Victoria (I.e. £2,000). Coz you would be showing up the monarch.

Rhys Essien

UCDVet wrote: »

Can you elaborate - I followed the first link but it didn't make any sense to me. It didn't say what the British did, just that it was 'a policy of mass starvation in Ireland'.

Did they come over and burn Irish fields or something?

The British are fully aware of their actions at the time.Otherwise Tony Blair would not have made this half hearted apology(link below).Potato blight was only part of the problem.The boats were queueing up to export food out of the country.

Food was being exported through ports in the worst hit areas of the country and was being brought to the ships under armed guard.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/blair-issues-apology-for-irish-potato-famine-1253790.html

phoenix999

Zebra3 wrote: »

It was policy in London at the time to drive down the populations in Ireland and Scotland and to boost the population of England so they would always dominate the Union.

The Ressurection of Hungary documents it fairly well.

Ironically, Ireland was one of the most heavily populated small countries in Europe at that time. Had bigger population than the Benelux countries combined. Alas no longer.

baalthor

Just saw a great book, Atlas of the Irish Famine.
€59 but it's enormous !
Should give you plenty of inspiration OP, Christine Kenealy is one of the contributors.

UCDVet

Seaneh wrote: »

Educate yourself.

If someone is going to make a controversial claim on the internet; it's not at all unreasonable to ask them to justify it.

Telling me to educate myself implies that this is not a controversial claim and that any research I did would substantiate it. That's not the case here.

Historians who dedicate their life to studying such things don't agree that it was genocide. In fact, from my 'self education', it would seem that the MAJORITY do not consider it genocide.

I'm always happy enough to listen to someone else's opinion, it's quite possible I would agree that it was genocide.

MadsL

Seaneh wrote: »

Educate yourself.

Should he also look up "overpopulation"?

Witcher

Chinasea wrote: »

Why so?

To escape bias, an Irish person looking at it will usually say not enough was done and their British counterpart will say plenty was done.

Pompey Magnus

phoenix999 wrote: »

She did a lot more than you think:

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Letter_of_Queen_Victoria

Yes she donated £2,000. To put that in perspective a single dinner held for her in Dublin Castle in 1849 cost £5,000.

phoenix999

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Yes she donated £2,000. To put that in perspective a single dinner held for her in Dublin Castle in 1849 cost £5,000.

And her public appeal raised over £170,000. A second appeal raised over £60000. Tens of millions at current valuations. I suppose she deserves no credit for that?

Rasheed

MadsL wrote: »

Should he also look up "overpopulation"?

Why? Serious question, by the way.

steddyeddy

phoenix999 wrote: »

And her public appeal raised over £170,000. A second appeal raised over £60000. I suppose she deserves no credit for that?

In fairness it was England's job to provide help to one of its colonies.

phoenix999

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness it was England's job to provide help to one of its colonies.

See my previous posts in the thread. She was a constitutional monarch. It was her inept ministers who made the poor decisions. She had a lot more sympathy towards the Irish than Russell, Trevelyan and his cronies.

Pompey Magnus

phoenix999 wrote: »

And her public appeal raised over £170,000. A second appeal raised over £60000. Tens of millions at current valuations. I suppose she deserves no credit for that?

Yes, fair play to the richest woman on Earth for taking the time to sit down to write two letters, the Irish people really should acknowledge the effort she went to in that endeavor as millions of her subjects starved to death.

For the record I believe the figure actually came to less than £200,000 as the 2nd letter was much less successful.

phoenix999

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Yes, fair play to the richest woman on Earth for taking the time to sit down to write two letters, the Irish people really should acknowledge the effort she went to in that endeavor as millions of her subjects starved to death.

For the record I believe the figure actually came to less than £200,000 as the 2nd letter was much less successful.

Put whatever twist you want on it. The money was raised and it was substantial. And as I already pointed out, the governments response in all aspects was woefully inadequate. They should have spent three times what they actually did. What exactly could she have done? She wasn't deciding government policy.

Dangerous Man

'You say Potato, I say potato.' Fuck.

Pompey Magnus

phoenix999 wrote: »

Put whatever twist you want on it. The money was raised and it was substantial. And as I already pointed out, the governments response in all aspects was woefully inadequate. They should have spent three times what they actually did. What exactly could she have done? She wasn't deciding government policy.

Well she could have donated far more for a start. Her donation made up 0.1% of her personal wealth. That is not a sum that deserves praise when it was her own subjects who were starving.

Grayson

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness it was England's job to provide help to one of its colonies.

Ireland wasn't a colony. It was a full part of the united kingdom and legally an irishman was the equal of a scot or englishman.

phoenix999

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Well she could have donated far more for a start. Her donation made up 0.1% of her personal wealth. That is not a sum that deserves praise when it was her own subjects who were starving.

Well I think it was the government that advised her what to donate in the first place. But no doubt we both agree that enough wasn't done. And people starved needlessly as a result. I save most of my bile for Trevelyan who knew what was happening on the ground. And Victoria foolishly Knighted him for his so called 'efforts' to relieve famine. An insult to all those that died.

Zebra3

UCDVet wrote: »

If someone is going to make a controversial claim on the internet; it's not at all unreasonable to ask them to justify it.

Telling me to educate myself implies that this is not a controversial claim and that any research I did would substantiate it. That's not the case here.

Historians who dedicate their life to studying such things don't agree that it was genocide. In fact, from my 'self education', it would seem that the MAJORITY do not consider it genocide.

I'm always happy enough to listen to someone else's opinion, it's quite possible I would agree that it was genocide.

Of course it was genocide.

People were left to die because it was in Ireland.

If it was England it would have dealt with in an entirely different matter.

England had spent a long time "pacifying" Ireland. The blight was a gift for them to exploit.

Seaneh

MadsL wrote: »

Should he also look up "overpopulation"?

Is Holland over populated?

Seaneh

Grayson wrote: »

legally an irishman was the equal of a scot or englishman.

Bollocks!