Will I Get In Trouble For Providing False Information On My Irish Heritage Cert...

UCDVet

I can't prove it - but I'm pretty sure I'm Irish. I don't know my extended family and my parents don't know their roots any better than I know mine. I *look* kind of Irish.

And, I live/work/pay taxes in Ireland.

Anyway - I heard about the Irish Heritage Cert and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I went and ordered one - but I provided false information.
http://www.heritagecertificate.com/

I'm now worried that I'm going to get in trouble. My co-workers told me this was an official document and that it could be used to obtain a passport and what not (which is why it's so expensive).

Should I contact the website and tell them the truth now - or say my credit card was stolen and I never went to the site?

My name is URL

Go for it. It's a load of utter **** anyway

Nodin

UCDVet wrote: »

I can't prove it - but I'm pretty sure I'm Irish. I don't know my extended family and my parents don't know their roots any better than I know mine. I *look* kind of Irish.

And, I live/work/pay taxes in Ireland.

Anyway - I heard about the Irish Heritage Cert and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I went and ordered one - but I provided false information.
http://www.heritagecertificate.com/

I'm now worried that I'm going to get in trouble. My co-workers told me this was an official document and that it could be used to obtain a passport and what not (which is why it's so expensive).

Should I contact the website and tell them the truth now - or say my credit card was stolen and I never went to the site?

...as it entitles ye to feck all, I doubt anyone gives a feck.

seamus

It's not an official document, it's a souvenir issued by a private company through licence from the Irish government.

It does not have any legal recognition or status within Ireland, and while theoretically there may be some obscure law under which lying to get one is some form of fraud, rest assured you have not committed any serious crime and nobody cares that your certificate is a fake.

Legally it's about as valid as one of those "name a star" certificates, or "own a piece of the moon".

Where To

I have some magic beans for sale OP.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Legally it's about as valid as one of those "name a star" certificates, or "own a piece of the moon".

Wait. Are you telling me that there isn't a star called Boneyarsebogman and that I don't own quadrant G563 on the moon?

I've been scammed :mad:

MadsL

€40+ €5 shipping or €120

Jesus - have the debt paid off in no time.

Deffo need to bring back the million quid passport though....

MadsL

DISCLAIMER
The Certificate of Irish Heritage provides recognition by the Irish State for descendants of previous generations of Irish born people and /or Irish citizens. It does not confer citizenship or any other legal rights, entitlements or expectations to the individual applicant (whether right of admission, residency, citizenship or other rights). The granting of a Certificate of Irish Heritage is based on the information provided by the Applicant which the Minister has accepted at face value and is not an endorsement of the status or otherwise of the holder for any reason whatsoever.

One for everyone in the audience (world)

If they don't bother checking then what is the point of these. Oh, look I have a certificate because I paid €40. I also have a Masters, a Doctorate, a licence to practice medicine and to conduct weddings. I'm also a certified human to plant life translator and I am certified past life regressor...

Credit card + internet ≠ proof on anything.

I'll do you one for a €5 + shipping.

theholyghost

Embarrasing to see the state involved in producing meaningless tat like this.

I don't know if the word I'd use is "cheesy" but it reminds me of something the London Mint Office would come up with.

Heroditas

theholyghost wrote: »

Embarrasing to see the state involved in producing meaningless tat like this.

I don't know if the word I'd use is "cheesy" but it reminds me of something the London Mint Office would come up with.

I'd say Carrolls Gift Shop are raging they didn't think of something like this

MadsL

Heroditas wrote: »

I'd say Carrolls Gift Shop are raging they didn't think of something like this

What's to stop them printing one?

Canis Lupus

UCDVet wrote: »

I can't prove it - but I'm pretty sure I'm Irish. I don't know my extended family and my parents don't know their roots any better than I know mine. I *look* kind of Irish.

And, I live/work/pay taxes in Ireland.

I should be able to clear this up pretty quickly:

Were you born in Ireland?

If you can answer yes to the above question, congratulations, you're Irish!

senorwipesalot

If its good enough for Paddy Patrick,its good enough for me.
Im in.

MadsL

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I should be able to clear this up pretty quickly:

Were you born in Ireland?

If you can answer yes to the above question, congratulations, you're Irish!

You might remember a referendum which means this is utterly untrue anymore. :mad:

Today a constitutional right to citizenship still exists for anyone who is both:
Born on the island of Ireland (including its islands and seas).
Born to at least one parent who is, or is entitled to be, an Irish citizen.

Capt'n Midnight

UCDVet

you could save a lot of time and hassle by getting your doctorate* online too

http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Free-Ordination-1-by-Cambridge-Theological-Seminary-by-NewtonStein.html

*you may have to lie a little

Canis Lupus

MadsL wrote: »

You might remember a referendum which means this is utterly untrue anymore. :mad:

Today a constitutional right to citizenship still exists for anyone who is both:
Born on the island of Ireland (including its islands and seas).
Born to at least one parent who is, or is entitled to be, an Irish citizen.

I didn't want to overly complicate my quip :P

UCDVet

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I should be able to clear this up pretty quickly:

Were you born in Ireland?

If you can answer yes to the above question, congratulations, you're Irish!

No, I was not born in Ireland.

Still, I feel as though I'm *more* Irish than someone who was born here and emigrated as a small child and spent their entire life in another country with another culture.

I knew people who called themselves Irish who had never even been to Ireland, much less lived here for years

Duggys Housemate

UCDVet wrote: »

No, I was not born in Ireland.

Still, I feel as though I'm *more* Irish than someone who was born here and emigrated as a small child and spent their entire life in another country with another culture.

I knew people who called themselves Irish who had never even been to Ireland, much less lived here for years

We do allow people to naturalise as citizens. You don't need Irish blood or birth just be legally here for a time.

Canis Lupus

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

We do allow people to naturalise as citizens. You don't need Irish blood or birth just be legally here for a time.

That's more of a passport/citizenship thing, it doesn't really make a person Irish

Duggys Housemate

Canis Lupus wrote: »

That's more of a passport/citizenship thing, it doesn't really make a person Irish

There is no legal distinction.

MadsL

Canis Lupus wrote: »

That's more of a passport/citizenship thing, it doesn't really make a person Irish

Oh, so the Californian teen who couldn't find Ireland on a world map, and whose granny married a Mexican is more Irish than the person who was born here and paid taxes all their working life?

Lovely.

Do you apply the same logic to American citizenship, that you are somehow not really properly American?

validusername1

UCDVet wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I'm Irish. I don't know my extended family and my parents don't know their roots any better than I know mine. I *look* kind of Irish.

And, I live/work/pay taxes in Ireland.

If you were Irish, you'd know about it because you'd have been born/raised in Ireland. Clearly you're not actually Irish. Your family's ''roots'' don't change your nationality.

Canis Lupus

MadsL wrote: »

Oh, so the Californian teen who couldn't find Ireland on a world map, and whose granny married a Mexican is more Irish than the person who was born here and paid taxes all their working life?

Lovely.

Do you apply the same logic to American citizenship, that you are somehow not really properly American?

Sigh... stop taking it so seriously......

How about same American moving to Ireland and settling here and being naturalised. Is he really 'Irish' just cos he has the passport?

UCDVet

validusername1 wrote: »

If you were Irish, you'd know about it because you'd have been born/raised in Ireland. Clearly you're not actually Irish. Your family's ''roots'' don't change your nationality.

In this context 'Irish' is clearly meant to be 'of Irish heritage' - (as in, someone in my family tree was probably 'Irish'); since that is what the certificate would certify and not 'of Irish nationality'.

Still, if you want to get pedantic about it:

define: nationality
1 - The status of belonging to a particular nation.
2 - Distinctive national or ethnic character: "the change of a name does not discard nationality".

According to (at least one) dictionary/Google - where you are *born* has very little to do with your nationality.

MadsL

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Sigh... stop taking it so seriously......

How about same American moving to Ireland and settling here and being naturalised. Is he really 'Irish' just cos he has the passport?

Is he more American than the Irish person who moves to the US and gets an American passport?

Americans celebrate that. Yay, a new American.
Irish begrudge it, eating our swans...

MadsL

UCDVet wrote: »

where you are *born* has very little to do with your nationality.

Yeah.

Something about stables.

gobnaitolunacy

You could be O'Wursthausen for all they care as long as you hand over the quids.

opti0nal

UCDVet wrote: »

...but I provided false information.

Did you claim to speak Irish? Most Irish people do but don't. So if you did, then you probably are Irish.

Then again if you really do speak Irish, that would be so unusual as to bring your Irishness into question.

Canis Lupus

MadsL wrote: »

Is he more American than the Irish person who moves to the US and gets an American passport?

Americans celebrate that. Yay, a new American.
Irish begrudge it, eating our swans...

I'm not begrudging anything, you're taking my point from what looks to be an immigration POV. I don't care who holds an Irish passport or lives in this country (except for muslims, Eastern Europeans or teh blacks, doubly so for black muslim Eastern European people :P)

My point is that I could potentially move to Morocco and become naturalised there and whilst sure I could call myself Moroccan and have a passport to prove it, I'd forever be an Irishman living in Morocco.

It's that simple and I was just pulling your mans leg. If he wants to go call himself Irish he can go for it, I'll not lose any sleep over it.


EDIT: Do Americans celebrate when Mexicans get citizenship? :P

MadsL

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I'm not begrudging anything, you're taking my point from what looks to be an immigration POV. I don't care who holds an Irish passport or lives in this country (except for muslims, Eastern Europeans or teh blacks, doubly so for black muslim Eastern European people :P)

*Steps over obvious troll*

My point is that I could potentially move to Morocco and become naturalised there and whilst sure I could call myself Moroccan and have a passport to prove it, I'd forever be an Irishman living in Morocco.

Err. You are confusing race and nationality. You would be Moroccan legally. You might also be an Irish national and hold dual-citizenship. Technically I could hold three passports in two years time.

It's that simple and I was just pulling your mans leg. If he wants to go call himself Irish he can go for it, I'll not lose any sleep over it.


EDIT: Do Americans celebrate when Mexicans get citizenship? :P

Yes, because most Americans realise that increasing the size of your country's population generally is linked to economic growth. Odd thing to say by the way.

Here's a picture of Carlos to (not really) prove my point. Congrats Carlos.
http://www.ragsdaleinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Citizenship_Party.png

SHOVELLER

Its dog**** and typical paddy gombeenism.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/1031/1224325931740.html?via=mr

PopePalpatine

seamus wrote: »

Legally it's about as valid as one of those "name a star" certificates, or "own a piece of the moon".

I think things would get awkward if we were ever visited by aliens whose planet orbited such a star.
"Wait...you named our sun 'DaveLuvzShelly2012'? RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!"

opti0nal

SHOVELLER wrote: »

Its dog**** and typical paddy gombeenism.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/1031/1224325931740.html?via=mr

Maybe they'd sell better if we threw in a millenium tree, a candle, a pack of those iodine tablets and a gold-painted penny from the 'Dublin Mint Office'?

3GAINSBOROUGH

I think Tony Cascarino used one of these certificates to get his Irish passport.
As far as I am concerned if you are Irish enough to play for the Republic of Ireland you are a true Irish man; just like the rest of the Italia 90 squad.

Canis Lupus

MadsL wrote: »

*Steps over obvious troll*


Err. You are confusing race and nationality. You would be Moroccan legally. You might also be an Irish national and hold dual-citizenship. Technically I could hold three passports in two years time.



Yes, because most Americans realise that increasing the size of your country's population generally is linked to economic growth. Odd thing to say by the way.

Here's a picture of Carlos to (not really) prove my point. Congrats Carlos.
http://www.ragsdaleinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Citizenship_Party.png

Are you intentionally being obtuse or what? I understand you can legally be whatever nationality you like as long as you get the official stamp of approval from the government once meeting whatever said country requires.

What was intially just some leg pulling but has clearly gone over your head was me talking about what MAKES A PERSON INTRINSICALLY IRISH or American or whatever. A Moroccan passport will legally make me Moroccan but I'm NOT Moroccan (and I'm not referring to race either).

Is that any clearer?

Cushie Butterfield

3GAINSBOROUGH wrote: »

I think Tony Cascarino used one of these certificates to get his Irish passport.
As far as I am concerned if you are Irish enough to play for the Republic of Ireland you are a true Irish man; just like the rest of the Italia 90 squad.

The Irish Heritage Certificates were only introduced in 2011. Cascarino got his first irish passport in 1996 even though he had played for Ireland since 1988. His mother (who was adopted) was born in UK with an Irish born father (Michael O'Malley). Even though his mother was adopted, Cascarino was still the legally recognised grand-son of O'Malley and entitled to apply for Irish citizenship through that lineage under the terms of the 1991 Irish Adoption Act. This is how he obtained an Irish passport.

3GAINSBOROUGH

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

The Irish Heritage Certificates were only introduced in 2011. Cascarino got his first irish passport in 1996 even though he had played for Ireland since 1988. His mother (who was adopted) was born in UK with an Irish born father (Michael O'Malley). Even though his mother was adopted, Cascarino was still the legally recognised grand-son of O'Malley and entitled to apply for Irish citizenship through that lineage under the terms of the 1991 Irish Adoption Act. This is how he obtained an Irish passport.

I was joking. You obviously didn't get it.
According to Tony Cascarino in his autobiography he was a fake.
His mothers father wasn't actually Irish (she lied to him). She didn't have the heart to tell him when she heard he was called up to play for the Republic of Ireland though.
He found out later when he has already applied for his passport, it was too late to admit it then as he was playing by then.

Cushie Butterfield

3GAINSBOROUGH wrote: »

He found out later when he has already applied for his passport, it was too late to admit it then as he was playing by then.

He was granted his passport when he applied for it.

MadsL

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Are you intentionally being obtuse or what? I understand you can legally be whatever nationality you like as long as you get the official stamp of approval from the government once meeting whatever said country requires.

What was intially just some leg pulling but has clearly gone over your head was me talking about what MAKES A PERSON INTRINSICALLY IRISH or American or whatever. A Moroccan passport will legally make me Moroccan but I'm NOT Moroccan (and I'm not referring to race either).

Is that any clearer?

Not really. You are now talking about two classes of Irish. What are intrinsically Irish people? Irish passport? Irish taxes and residence? Two Irish parents, One Irish parent, One irish grandparent, one Irish great-grandparent?

As pointed out above, we are all probably African.

Americans basically have the attitude that you are an American as soon as you get your citizenship, you seem to have a different one.

Aside from the shouting above (not a fan of the CAPS, I can read thanks) what is this intrinsic Irish thing? Just to get you thinking; is a law-abiding, taxpaying, naturalised tax payer less Irish than some scumbag thief in the Joy just because they were born here, and are they also less 'intrinisically' Irish than someone who has never set foot in Ireland, nor has their parents?

You seem to have a two or three tier system in your head about this.

Canis Lupus

MadsL wrote: »

Not really. You are now talking about two classes of Irish. What are intrinsically Irish people? Irish passport? Irish taxes and residence? Two Irish parents, One Irish parent, One irish grandparent, one Irish great-grandparent?

As pointed out above, we are all probably African.

Americans basically have the attitude that you are an American as soon as you get your citizenship, you seem to have a different one.

Aside from the shouting above (not a fan of the CAPS, I can read thanks) what is this intrinsic Irish thing? Just to get you thinking; is a law-abiding, taxpaying, naturalised tax payer less Irish than some scumbag thief in the Joy just because they were born here, and are they also less 'intrinisically' Irish than someone who has never set foot in Ireland, nor has their parents?

You seem to have a two or three tier system in your head about this.

You're still not getting me. How about preferably born and raised here till say... 18. Even simply raised from a baby to that age. Whether a scumbag or not that person will be more culturally 'Irish' than an adult from another country who gets a passport.

You take an American adult and naturalise him and his values, way of thinking, culture etc will all still be American. Same way at 31 I'll never 'be' American or French etc. Call it national identity if you want. A passport doesnt change that.

who the fug

If you are worried about telling fibs to the government then I suggest you is not Irish, see we have an understanding with Kildare street we know they is lying and they know we never fill out forms correctly

MadsL

Canis Lupus wrote: »

You're still not getting me. How about preferably born and raised here till say... 18. Even simply raised from a baby to that age. Whether a scumbag or not that person will be more culturally 'Irish' than an adult from another country who gets a passport.

And how will we know these people? Will they have a special mark or a gold star in their passports?

You take an American adult and naturalise him and his values, way of thinking, culture etc will all still be American. Same way at 31 I'll never 'be' American or French etc. Call it national identity if you want. A passport doesnt change that.

Au Contraire, a passport changes a lot. Right to vote, work, live. These are all very important rights. And for many, finally obtaining a passport is the culmination to a dream. But somehow "intrinsically" that's not enough for you to call them Irish.

Out of interest what would you call someone who has an Irish dad, French mother and who was born in Germany?

Or spend exactly half their life in the UK and half in Ireland?

Canis Lupus

MadsL wrote: »

And how will we know these people? Will they have a special mark or a gold star in their passports?



Au Contraire, a passport changes a lot. Right to vote, work, live. These are all very important rights. And for many, finally obtaining a passport is the culmination to a dream. But somehow "intrinsically" that's not enough for you to call them Irish.

Is there some chip on your shoulder here? Do you 'just' have an Irish passport and feel some need to doggedly defend your status or something? Will you forget the passports, I have already stated I understand what the passport provides.

Out of interest what would you call someone who has an Irish dad, French mother and who was born in Germany?

Or spend exactly half their life in the UK and half in Ireland?

For first one it would depend where they grew up predominately.

For second I honestly couldn't say unless you're stating they lived until what.. 30 in Ireland then moved to the UK then I'd say they were Irish because they've spent their formative years here surrounded by Irish culture, school, way of life etc etc.

Are you honestly trying to argue that you could grow up in Ireland till 30+ then move to (as an extreme) Thailand, get a Thai passport, come back to Ireland for a visit and tell everyone you're quintessentially Thai? Do you really think your friends wouldn't consider you a bit mental?

MadsL

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Is there some chip on your shoulder here? Do you 'just' have an Irish passport and feel some need to doggedly defend your status or something? Will you forget the passports, I have already stated I understand what the passport provides.

Nope, no chip. just pointing out how begrudging you are being about naturalised citizens being somehow not quite as Irish as you when they have exactly the same legal status.

For first one it would depend where they grew up predominately.

So a first generation American with two Irish parents is not Irish then?

For second I honestly couldn't say unless you're stating they lived until what.. 30 in Ireland then moved to the UK then I'd say they were Irish because they've spent their formative years here surrounded by Irish culture, school, way of life etc etc.

So "formative" years are greater than adult years? Interesting.
I know someone born in Africa and spent most of his early years there. Is he less Irish by some measure now?

Are you honestly trying to argue that you could grow up in Ireland till 30+ then move to (as an extreme) Thailand, get a Thai passport, come back to Ireland for a visit and tell everyone you're quintessentially Thai? Do you really think your friends wouldn't consider you a bit mental?

Should you be treated as less Thai by Thais? And "quintessentially" of course you are not going to be the most typical Thai.

As I have pointed out Americans don't give a **** about where you are born (unless you are Obama) once you have that citizenship - you are an American, god damn it.

What's this special "Irishness" you seem reluctant to allow others to have?

Canis Lupus

MadsL wrote: »

Nope, no chip. just pointing out how begrudging you are being about naturalised citizens being somehow not quite as Irish as you when they have exactly the same legal status.


So a first generation American with two Irish parents is not Irish then?


So "formative" years are greater than adult years? Interesting.
I know someone born in Africa and spent most of his early years there. Is he less Irish by some measure now?


Should you be treated as less Thai by Thais? And "quintessentially" of course you are not going to be the most typical Thai.

As I have pointed out Americans don't give a **** about where you are born (unless you are Obama) once you have that citizenship - you are an American, god damn it.

What's this special "Irishness" you seem reluctant to allow others to have?

Lets agree to disagree. I'm not interested in multiquoting till my keyboard breaks.

MadsL

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Lets agree to disagree. I'm not interested in multiquoting till my keyboard breaks.

Painted yourself into a corner?

TwoShedsJackson

OP should have gone for the upgraded 'entitled to two seats on the bus' version.

Canis Lupus

MadsL wrote: »

Painted yourself into a corner?

As a general personal rule once quoting and breaking down responses line for line starts it means the discussion has gone on too long. If you want to consider that a 'win' you go for it.

MadsL

Canis Lupus wrote: »

As a general personal rule once quoting and breaking down responses line for line starts it means the discussion has gone on too long. If you want to consider that a 'win' you go for it.

OK. One two simple questions then. Earlier you used the word preferable when referring to someone preferably born and raised here till say... 18.

Why is it preferable that an Irish citizen is "born and raised" in Ireland?

Would you remove the right to Irish citizenship from Irish emigrants children then?

Duggys Housemate

we've gone a bit nuts here.

holystungun9

seamus wrote: »

It's not an official document, it's a souvenir issued by a private company through licence from the Irish government.

It does not have any legal recognition or status within Ireland, and while theoretically there may be some obscure law under which lying to get one is some form of fraud, rest assured you have not committed any serious crime and nobody cares that your certificate is a fake.

Legally it's about as valid as one of those "name a star" certificates, or "own a piece of the moon".

Pfft! Don't come crying to me when the Earth is about to blow up and I'm off to pitch me tent on the moon.