what if 3 months have passed...

clayshooterpl

Lads,

What's the next step when 3 months have passed since submission of firearms cert application (it seems like discussing matters with local FO doesn't make sense anymore and the application has never reached Super's office)? Any ideas?

Cass

Technically after the 3 months have expired the license stands as refused.

Reality is the process can go on for up to or exceeding a year which is a joke, and contrary to acceptable guidelines, but hat's what we have. :mad:

Mezamo

By law you must receive a decision within 90 days. If you are refused he must give you the reasons in writing. The fact that you say he has never got your application seems more like an issue with the FO than the Super. Call the station and ask either to speak to the super or make an appointment to see him. Don't take no for an answer!!!

clayshooterpl

Ezridax wrote: »

Technically after the 3 months have expired the license stands as refused

And that's what I'm assuming (as it's the only way I can go any further with my application as it seems)...

By law you must receive a decision within 90 days

I'd love to get anything (even refusal - at least I knew the reason) but I didn't... So the only thing I can do is to assume I've been refused... The question is - what to do next..?

Cass

This is the crap that is our current licensing procedure.

While you SHOULD be refused chances are they are slow in processing the application. You can always re-apply, but that is not needed just yet.

You go to your local FO, and ask for an update on the situation with your FCA1 application. if they try to "palm you off" politely insist. Give it a few days then contact them again, and ask. If all else fails, and you fell you are getting the run around then contact the Firearm Policy Unit. Ask them for advice, and if possible to make contact on your behalf.

Use this only as a last resort. Keep making continuous and frequent contact with your FO. Be firm, but polite.

clayshooterpl

Ezridax wrote: »

Keep making continuous and frequent contact with your FO. Be firm, but polite.

Well... That could go on forever (based on my experience so far). I'm kind of an old fasioned man and I think rules are there for a reason. And if the rule states that after 3 months my application is deemed to be refused then I don't see any point in further discussions and assumptions (and I've already discussed a few things with my FO).
I guess I'll try to talk to Firearms Policy Unit then..

Cass

clayshooterpl wrote: »

...........And if the rule states that after 3 months my application is deemed to be refused then I don't see any point in further discussions and assumptions.....

Excuse my bluntness, but things don't work that way, and making such a "stand" will effect you not your FO, Super, etc.

This is going on around the country. Some places are quick, some take the full time alotted, and others are slower than Christmas. Excluding your FO from the resolution process will only serve to get their back up. While the FPU are a great help they can only make the same call as you, but it may carry more weight. I only recommend it as a last resort as they most likely will ask you did you try everything possible to resolve this yourself.

If your answer is "Well the three months are up so either refuse me or give me the license" i cannot see this doing you any favours.

Nothing in the current licensing system is easy or straight forward. This will not change for you no more than it would for me or anyone. Go to your FO, and have a face to face with him/her. When all else has failed then make contact with the FPU. However if the three months are just up, and bearing in mind lads that are waiting over a year your "case" will not be a top priority.

tommyboy26

More than one guard has told me directly that it is three months from the time it is entered onto the pulse system. Who's to say your appilication isn't still sitting on someones desk!!! Happened to me with an application was sittin on a desk for two months only found out after I called into the station everyday for a week. Keep calling them and dropping into the station till they get annoyed looking at you. Worked for me

Cass

I've heard all the stories. The usual one is 3 months from receipt of the application. To you, me and anyone else that would mean when we drop it off. However in Garda terms it's the moment they enter your details into PULSE, and you receive the receipt letter to tell you they have received it.

So as Tommy said it could be sitting on a desk for months, then entered, and it is then the clock starts. Hence my reason for suggesting you talk to your FO. The FPU can only act once the details are on PULSE. Until then they will tell you to contact the FO.

Vizzy

If I can give a recent example of this.

As many of you will have seen I applied for a licence for a rifle in April this year.
After many visits I still had not gotten a licence or a refusal.
Some of the delay was just down to coincidence( me on holidays then the FO on holidays etc) but eventually I got to the point where I just "needed to know",this was after 5 months by the way.
Rang the FO,and after a few minutes he more or less admitted that the application had not got near the Super.
It was now "lapsed" i.e effectively refused.
I politely asked for a letter to this effect in writing but was told that a new application would be put in train immediately.
Licence arrived after 5 days.
Moral is go back to your FO and get an answer out of him one way or the other.If the application has been sitting on somebody's desk,and it shouldn't matter who's desk that this is,ask for clarification in writing.Also be seen by the FO to be writing down details of your meeting with him/her.
Basically haunt the FO-bring your own chair if necessary.

clivej

Get the Super's secretary's phone number and speak directly to them asking what he delay is, why this is happening and when you can except your license to be approved.

Don't stand about waiting for things to happen just start phoning up once a week until you get results.

clayshooterpl

Thanks Lads. I'll probably go the "super's secretary" way...
As I said - I don't see a point in talking to local FO anymore (don't ask why - various reasons). Ringing them, talking to them, bringing my own chair did nothing. If I had a slightest chance of moving things forward by doing all that - I would.
That's why I'm asking - what to do next if FO is not going to do anything anymore and starts ignoring you...? I don't believe waiting several more weeks/months will help.
And BTW - they can say whatever they want. It's 3 months from the day FO receives completed application. Not the day they "process" it (Section 3 of the Firearms Act 1925 and Commissioners guidelines, page 14 "within 3 months from the date on which the applicant submitted a completed application"). I can imagine some stations can have their own view on that (as on many other things).

wexfordman

Vizzy wrote: »

If I can give a recent example of this.

As many of you will have seen I applied for a licence for a rifle in April this year.
After many visits I still had not gotten a licence or a refusal.
Some of the delay was just down to coincidence( me on holidays then the FO on holidays etc) but eventually I got to the point where I just "needed to know",this was after 5 months by the way.
Rang the FO,and after a few minutes he more or less admitted that the application had not got near the Super.
It was now "lapsed" i.e effectively refused.
I politely asked for a letter to this effect in writing but was told that a new application would be put in train immediately.
Licence arrived after 5 days.
Moral is go back to your FO and get an answer out of him one way or the other.If the application has been sitting on somebody's desk,and it shouldn't matter who's desk that this is,ask for clarification in writing.Also be seen by the FO to be writing down details of your meeting with him/her.
Basically haunt the FO-bring your own chair if necessary.

Pretty much the same story with me!! My application lapsed, and was expired, they resubmitted it themselves and got the licence a few days later. It took about 4 or 5 moinths overall, but the interesting thing was I knew from the FPU when the expiry date was up, so rang them the day before!! They then rang the local super and I got a call on the day it expired from the local FO telling me they would resubmit and approve it straight away.

Our local super is not firearm friendly btw!

Cass

clayshooterpl wrote: »

And BTW - they can say whatever they want. It's 3 months from the day FO receives completed application. Not the day they "process" it (Section 3 of the Firearms Act 1925 and Commissioners guidelines, page 14 "within 3 months from the date on which the applicant submitted a completed application"). I can imagine some stations can have their own view on that (as on many other things).

You could have stopped after the first line.

The commissioner's guidelines are just that, guidelines. They are rolled out when it suits, and ignored when it does not.

The main point of my posts here are to highlight that while you might be legally and morally right in your position/stance if does not count for squat. A sad state, but as firearm ownership is a privilege not a right we are at the mercy of individual Garda, Station, district, Super's whims.

clayshooterpl

Ezridax wrote: »

They are rolled out when it suits, and ignored when it does not.

It's sad to realise that the gards/police roll out their own rules whenever they want...

Ezridax wrote: »

while you might be legally (...) right

One of the options I'm considering is district court...

Ezridax wrote: »

as firearm ownership is a privilege not a right we are at the mercy of individual Garda, Station, district, Super's whims

Again - all that doesn't mean the Gards live in a mini-country with their own rules and regulations. And while I get the point of being at Super's mercy (that's his privilege/right according to Firearms Acts) - it doesn't necessairily give local FO the right to bin ones application. And if he does that - he breaks the law.

Again - that's just my view (which may be totaly wrong ). I'm just trying to consider all options before I go the way with no return ;-))

Cass

Please don't misunderstand my explanations above as "justifications" for what occurs. Far from it. Myself, and pretty much every shooter out there has gripes, and issues with the licensing procedures.

My only point is standing on the pure definition of the law, and sticking rigidly to the rules while fine in theory is not how it works, and can only end one of two ways.

1. You don't get what you want.
2. It costs you s bucket load of money in court fees to get it.

If either of these can be avoided by talking, and pushing at the source then it pays to play ball.

knockon

I applied for the renewal of my 2 restricted pistols on Sept 14th. My Licenses expired last night and I am not permitted on the range. Meanwhile the CS who was forced by the DC to give me the licenses 2 year and 3 months ago (yes the stiffed me 9 months) says a decision on the "weapon" will be communicated before Dec 14th!!
It's an extraordinary length of time to wait. I will start making phone calls to his office tomorrow morning.

Audioslave82

Hi, just a quick question regarding the licensing process. I submitted my application for my first firearm (air rifle) 1 month ago with more than the required 2 written permissions. The FO had a look over it and said I wouldn't have any trouble. I'm just getting a little concerned as I haven't even received the letter acknowledging receipt of my application. Am I just being impatient or should I contact them and inquire? It's just I didn't want to hassle them unnecessarily.

Vizzy

Unfortunately you could be waiting a while yet.

I would give the FO a ring(even better to meet them) and ask how the application is progressing.

Cass

Audioslave82 wrote: »

I'm just getting a little concerned as I haven't even received the letter acknowledging receipt of my application. Am I just being impatient or should I contact them and inquire?

Ideally you should get the letter soon after submitting the application. However more often the case is the receipt letter is sent when the details are entered into PULSE, meaning the application is already processed, and you receive the grant soon after.

In some cases i have received the license/grant prior to the receipt letter.

Be patient. If you receive nothing in the coming week(s) i would ring the FO to enquire as to the progress of the application.

BattleCorp

With my last two licence applications, I heard nothing for over two months. When I finally got a letter from them, it was a letter saying that they had received my application. I received my grant letter the next day in one case and two days after in the other case.

I wouldn't worry if only a month has passed. Maybe contact your FO though, just to make sure that the application has been submitted.

Audioslave82

Firstly, thanks for the advice. Just to update, I phoned the FO today and as with all the other interaction with her in the past she was very nice and helpfull. She told me that there was a huge pile of renewals delaying my application, but later today she would dig mine out as she remembered that it was straight forward and didn't foresee any trouble with it. And she explained that the super was very busy and that's very understandable as at the moment here they are dealing with a high profile murder case.

Audioslave82

My character references that I listed got phone calls on Thursday, so at least I know now its being processed, anyone any idea how long I should expect to wait until I receive a yes or no??

Cass

Audioslave82 wrote: »

..............anyone any idea how long I should expect to wait until I receive a yes or no??

They have another two months, but if your references are being contacted then it seems as though it is being processed now. Once the references, and other details are confirmed the FCA1 is given to the Super to sign off on. Once that's done you should have tword as soon as your FO enters the pass/refuse into PULSE. I'd wait another couple of weeks before contacting him/her.

clayshooterpl

I'm still trying to avoid "the way with no return" (ie. district court) and... Now they want me to provide a document that I am unable to provide (because the authorities do not issue such document at all). Any ideas what to do?

Cass

What document?

Cannot really advise if we don;t know what they are looking for.

clayshooterpl

Ezridax wrote: »

What document?

Cannot really advise if we don;t know what they are looking for.

Doesn't really matter (and I don't really want to disclose too much info at this stage) - the point is they require me to provide something that I am unable to provide (again - the authorities in my country do not issue such documents. The type of doc FO wants simply doesn't exist in my country).

Cass

You ask for advice................

clayshooterpl wrote: »

Any ideas what to do?

.............but then say;

clayshooterpl wrote: »

Doesn't really matter (and I don't really want to disclose too much info at this stage) -

I can apreciate the need for security, and if you prefer PM myself, one of the other mods or someone that you feel more comfortable talking to, and it will be dealt with in the strictest confidence.

Also your continued reference to another country;

.............(again - the authorities in my country do not issue such documents. The type of doc FO wants simply doesn't exist in my country).

Would seem to suggest that the necessities required in Ireland do not apply.

Again i could be way off base, but unless i/we have more detail we cannot advise randomly.

clayshooterpl

Ok. Without further unneeded discussion - what would you do if you were asked to provide a letter - certified by District Court - that you have never been on Mars? Obviously - nobody will issue such certificate and yet - they would require you to provide this. What would you do?

And BTW - it has nothing to do with the necessities required in Ireland. They simply make up more and more requirements as they go.

Cass

Necessities of a firearms application;

• FCA1
• Photos
• Medical
• Referees
• Firearm details
• Dealers letter/bill of sale
• Security arrangements
• Membership of a range
• Land
• Hunting license.

Extra info required;

• Letter from home owner for storage of fiearm
• Reasons for the firearrm/Suppressor
• Competency Certificate

Other than the above i cannot think of any information that would be required as part of a normal application. i have spoken to lads (here and IRL) that needed letters from their local station to say that they had not been charged for any offences, but other than that i can think of nothing.


So if the Gardaí are requesting information that is not legally required, is above and beyond the "acceptable" level of information for a firearm application or is something that cannot be provided simply because there is no way to provide a letter for it (for example asking for a letter from the bank you got your car loan when you don't have a car or a car loan) then your next step is to contact the Firearms Policy Unit, and speak to one of the two lads there.

They are helpful, and informative, and will advise you on the correct course of action. They may, in some cases, intervene if the situation demands it.

That is as specific as i can be with the info i have.

Audioslave82

Ok so I got a letter this morning saying I was granted permission for a moderator, but no word on the gun license just another letter saying my application was received. Is this the norm?

Cass

Some Supers are handing out letter instead of the "S" on the license. Don't worry about it for the moment.

Wait until the license arrives, then go to your FO, and request a reprint of the license with the "S" on it.

While the letter stands as your authorisation for the mod if the license does not have the "S" then it means it was not run through PULSE. So if stopped by any Garda outside your district and they done a check on PULSE you would not show up as being authorised. So you need the letter on you at all times, and any Garda would have to ring the station to confirm, and if your FO was not there................................. wel you get the picture.


Only recently my Father got a letter, and no "S" on his license even though he had it on his old license. I went back to my FO, explained the above to him, and told him if he was not sure to ring the FPU to confirm (they really don't like the letter thing, and are demanding that station issue the authroisation as an "S"). A week later he got another license with the "S" on it. Then when mine arrived it hd the "S" on it and no letter.

Audioslave82

Letter granting license arrived this morning. Woohoo, I'd imagine the "S" won't be on it.

knockon

3 Months have passed since yesterday and still I have not received my licenses for my 2 Pistols. I have spoken to a number of the CS staff up to last month who really have'nt been able to tell me anything. I spoke to my Solicitor yesterday who is preparing a sequence of actions.

Does anyone who what the f@ck are Chief Superintendents doing with these applications on their desks?

clayshooterpl

@knockon - are you sure your application is on Super's desk? Do what I did - go to your local station and make sure your application is no longer there (you may have to do it a few times ) and then call super's office, ask for the person dealing with FCs and politely explain the situation... Again - it may not be easy to find the right person but you have to be patient )

knockon

clayshooterpl wrote: »

@knockon - are you sure your application is on Super's desk? Do what I did - go to your local station and make sure your application is no longer there (you may have to do it a few times ) and then call super's office, ask for the person dealing with FCs and politely explain the situation... Again - it may not be easy to find the right person but you have to be patient )

Did all that. Patience has long since expired as has my ability to use the range since Oct 31st.The matter is now being handled by legal consul.

Sparks

Closing the thread as it's now going before the courts. knockon, PM me when you have a ruling and I'll reopen the thread if you want.